United linked with van Gaal in the meeja

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Invictus

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Hand on heart most of us would love for Giggsy to be United manager one day and be our very own Guardiola. Possibly manage the club for a couple of decades. But I just think some including Lindegaard are taking a rather simplistic view of things. It's great that Giggsy can give rousing speeches and uplift the player morale.. But that's not all a manager's job entails, those are just tertiary requirements. The most important and basic thing about being a manager is setting up the team, employing the right tactics, have alternate backup plans in-game if those don't work etc - mostly stuff that happens on the football field rather than off it or in the dressing room. I'm not qualified enough to judge how good Ryan is in that regard but we can make an educated guess. And at least on that front he might have some more learning to do to be compared with someone like Pep.

Giggsy has only experienced the finer technical details under Sir Alex and Moyes in his whole playing career. For sure he would've learnt a lot from the great man but I doubt he picked anything up from Moyes' tenure. This is what worries me the most. It's really simple - if a person has only eaten oranges, he'll think it's the best fruit ever. Yet he's never even tried mangoes, apples or strawberries to make a proper judgement. He's experienced a fairly isolated environment so his imagination for the team might be limited and that could prove to be fatal against continental coaches. What he should ideally do is further his education under a genius tactician like Van Gaal, who is famous for keeping his door open to the staff and players. Some of his pupils are renowned coaches and 3 of them won the highest club honours - Mourinho, Guardiola, Rijkaard. Giggy could pick up so many different things from Louis which will help him develop a deeper understating for the game and in the longer run it'll only make him a better tactician.

It's getting overlooked a bit but what makes Guardiola unique isn't just that he coached the Barcelona reserve team. He vastly improved his tactical nous being in different leagues and learning from so many different coaches. He didn't just learn from Van Gaal. He learnt from Cruyff, he experienced Italian tactics with Roma and Brescia. He played in Mexico. And took a one year sabbatical travelling to Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay including mentoring by Bielsa. He experienced so many different footballing cultures and probably learnt about a million different minor details from some of the best tacticians around. This is why I think it's premature for Giggsy to branded as the new Pep. We don't even need to look further to gauge the benefits of having a varied football education. There's a great example in Liverpool with Rodgers - who's a different breed to most other British + Irish managers (no offence intended whatsoever). After a brief playing career he scoured Spain to learn a gamut of different things and that's helped solidify his knowledge of the game - and made him arguably one of the best tacticians around.

Giggsy will be United manager one day - that's for certain. But I just think waiting a few more years and gaining a thorough knowledge of the game will make him a better, more complete manager. If Giggsy keeps an open mind he has a great chance to learn from Louis if he's appointed, broaden his horizons a bit and get some distance from familiar surroundings, talk to some other great tacticians like Sacchi, Bielsa, Capello and absorb their experiences, if possible travel to South America and learn about their philosophies, coach for a bit in Germany or Italy or Spain. Then come back in 4-5 years when he's imbibed every little detail. That'll massively help him in setting up the team to counter any opposition game plan. He'll be what 45 in in 4 years ? That really young in managerial terms. No need to rush things now with a half cooked meal. He could work out great given the next season, but all we know it could be an utter disaster and scar his chances to be a United manager in the future.
 

Diabo_Sam

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You would prefer Giggs as permanent manager over Van Gaal?

Giggs has only been a coach for this season ffs. Think he has the makings of a great manger, but not now. We need to go for proven class.
I agree with you regarding the proven class, I prefer Ancelotti or Klopp but not Van Gaal. I don't like him, he's too old and If VG is the only available then I would choose Giggs a winner of 13 league titles and couple CL titles and more even if that was as a player, compared to some managers it should be considered.
 

Revan

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My mistake for mentioning Messi.

However would you kindly tell me how Barcelona B was fairing prior to Guardiola's appointment and how they faired afterwards?
Valdez, Reina, Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol all got their debut under Van Gaal.

On the years between Van Gaal and Guardiola they produced players like Fabregas, Messi, Pique and Alba.

Since Guardiola came only important players they produced are Busquets and Pedro.

However, that wasn't my main point. Guardiola didn't do anything to improve the academy, and why would he had done it when it was working perfectly. Cruyff made the La Massia of today and Van Gaal invested there a lot. Pep didn't had much time to do so, he coached them for a year and then went to the first team when he gave debut to a few players from there but only 2 of them really made boom.
 

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I can't help but wonder if the majority of those who want to give Giggsy the job full time are doing so out of sentiment, for the romance of the idea.
there's nothing to wonder about.

He's done nothing to deserve the job. Even lesser so than Moyes. Its only the weird romanticism that some have that wants him appointed. Lets hope the people in power are more sensible.
 

Kill 'em all

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I agree with you regarding the proven class, I prefer Ancelloti or Klopp but not Van Gaal. I don't like him, he's too old and If VG is the only available then I would choose Giggs a winner of 13 league titles and couple CL titles and more even if that was as a player, compared to some managers it should be considered.
Going by those standards Messi would make the best manager in the history of football.
 

PlayerOne

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But why was Scholes being in the dressing room not an issue for us last Monday?

So it's something we're willing to miss out on van Gaal over but 7 days ago we weren't fussed if he was at home picking his arse in front of Countdown?
Where did I ever say it would okay for us to miss out on Van Gaal based on these demands? I said he should be allowed to bring in whoever he wants.
 

Sultan

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He knows shit about tactics from a managerial point of view and I don't need to see his management skills to know he won't drop his best friends and ex-collegues when it needs to happen. I know he won't ship out the deadwood, I know he won't bring turnaround. He'll just run us stuck as a club and worsen our situation.

At best he'll provide a motivational spark after a good speach, like Seedorf does at Milan, but anything more than that is wishfull thinking. He has 0 experience, no tactical wits and too biased to implement the changes that need to happen.

If Giggs takes over, then I'll rue the day we firred Moyes, because we would have been better off with him (and I hated having him as our coach).
You've made up your mind after one game? I'm not even going ask how you've come to those conclusions with the rest of your post.
 
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devilish

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Valdez, Reina, Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol all got their debut under Van Gaal.

On the years between Van Gaal and Guardiola they produced players like Fabregas, Messi, Pique and Alba.

Since Guardiola came only important players they produced are Busquets and Pedro.

However, that wasn't my main point. Guardiola didn't do anything to improve the academy, and why would he had done it when it was working perfectly. Cruyff made the La Massia of today and Van Gaal invested there a lot. Pep didn't had much time to do so, he coached them for a year and then went to the first team when he gave debut to a few players from there but only 2 of them really made boom.
I repeat would you kindly tell us how Barcelona B were fairing prior Guardiola's arrival? With so much talent around I believe they were doing very well right?
 

Revan

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I agree with you regarding the proven class, I prefer Ancelloti or Klopp but not Van Gaal. I don't like him, he's too old and If VG is the only available then I would choose Giggs a winner of 13 league titles and couple CL titles and more even if that was as a player, compared to some managers it should be considered.
What Giggsy has done as a player means feck all for him as a manager. Bobby Charlton was even a better player than him but was a failure as a manager. And I am not even including even greater players like Maradona because they were fecking nuts.
 

Mister Ed

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The club are absolutely correct if these reports are correct. The core of backroom staff should remain. One of Moyes' biggest mistake was not keeping at least a few members of the backroom staff.
The backroom staff that was so experienced they should have never been replaced have been gone since Moyes and Giggs didn't bring them back. He appointed Scholes and added Butt to his staff, the coaching staff we have right now has been in place since saturday and have coached one game, a 4-0 victory over a weak Norwich side. What you say doesn't make any sense at all !

What kind of experience will we lose out on, the collective managerial know how of 4 ex-players that have been in charge for 4 games in which we have nothing to play for anymore ?

Moyes his biggest mistake was retaining alot of shitbags previous summer and not making the changes that had to be made. A mistake that will be repeated if we keep on Ryan Giggs as coach.

The biggest mistake in the Moyes saga has been the delirous decision to hire him while he lacked experience on the highest level and didn't offer anything more than the prospect of loyalty, hard work and his scottishness. If we hire Giggs we'll make that mistake again aswell, he'll be hired for all the wrong reasons and it won't end well.
 

Revan

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I repeat would you kindly tell us how Barcelona B were fairing prior Guardiola's arrival? With so much talent around I believe they were doing very well right?
What does it matter? The existence of Barca B is to produce players who will get into the first team, not to win Spanish third league.

By your logic then Warren Joyce did more than Sir Alex for our academy because he won the U21 title while SAF didn't win it. It just doesn't work that way.
 

BennyBlanco

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I agree with you regarding the proven class, I prefer Ancelloti or Klopp but not Van Gaal. I don't like him, he's too old and If VG is the only available then I would choose Giggs a winner of 13 league titles and couple CL titles and more even if that was as a player, compared to some managers it should be considered.
Roy Keane was, at the time of his retirement seen as an ideal manager in waiting, the quotes of "Similar determination as Fergie" " The same ruthless desire to win" and all this junk abound, he was a United player for about 14 years and multiple (7)x league winner as well, thank God we weren't looking for a replacement for SAF at the time eh?
I don't want Giggs over LvG a proven coach who'll repair our football at worst.. Giggs could easily be as big a flop in management as Keane, there are no guarantees, certainly not 1 win against a team who've picked up 1 point away all year.
 

devilish

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The point of a youth team is to produce players and not win games.
The point is to build a competitive side. Guardiola revolutionized Barcelona B system and exported such winning system to the senior side.
 

Plugsy

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So what if Giggs doesn't work. Where down the list does Clayton Blackmore come out of interest?

I'm guessing we'll try Giggs and then Scholes, Neville, Butt then perhaps it'll be "Welbeck's been here since he was a club, who knows the place better?"

In fact I don't see why we dont just write into the contract of whoever we appointed as a F/T replacement for Moyes that Welbeck will be groomed to take over in 2022.
 

DomesticTadpole

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You know at this rate if we get hammered by Sunderland it'd be a relief. Mind you then the 'Poyet for United' badwagon will roll.

"He's beaten us and his team talk was like Jose gave it" and arguments that he's been at OT for 3 hours that day so must be offered a job for the sake of continuity.

"Guardiola is also foreign", they'll cry
Sunderland will be far more up for it than Norwich and actually have an attacking threat.
 

Sultan

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How do we know the staff LVG want's to bring are any better than what we have? The lads in charge at present have vast experience of the club and have played under the greatest manager and many top coaches over the years. They all have great CV's.
 

Plugsy

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Sunderland will be far more up for it than Norwich and actually have an attacking threat.
Maybe that needs to happen. If we win again I'm half expecting a thread saying "Why should Prince George be heir to the throne, how many FA Cups has he won?"
 

Revan

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The club are absolutely correct if these reports are correct. The core of backroom staff should remain. One of Moyes' biggest mistake was not keeping at least a few members of the backroom staff.
What? We are not removing word class coaches like Queiroz and Maulensteen, we will remove some ex-players who don't have any experience on it. The core of the backroom staff created a week ago. It's pure romantism if we go for them instead of coaches who have been creating teams for decades.
 

FreakyJim

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Moyes brought P. Neville with him, made Giggs part of his staff, I believe he offered Scholes a place (might be wrong on that one)...when things got difficult it didn't help him at all, did it.

The class of 92 has enormous influence and rightly so. But they're not all knowing. In fact they've got zero experience as coaches. They might think they know best but is that really true? Would they be open to other things? LVG is a weirdo, a control freak that likes his teams to play certain way. What if Giggs and co. don't like it? Back to square one, another season lost.

It's a bit of a tricky situation. I'm leaning towards giving Giggs the job. Get it out of the way so to speak. If he's a success - great. If not - he'd learn the hard way he's not ready yet and maybe give the next guy the time and patience he needs. Win-win.
 

PlayerOne

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How do we know the staff LVG want's to bring are any better than what we have? The lads in charge at present have vast experience of the club and have played under the greatest manager and many top coaches over the years. They all have great CV's.
You're being a bit to sentimental here I think. As I said, ideally Van Gaal would keep two of the of the current lads but it's not the worst thing in the world if he brings in his own people.
 

DomesticTadpole

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The backroom staff that was so experienced they should have never been replaced have been gone since Moyes and Giggs didn't bring them back. He appointed Scholes and added Butt to his staff, the coaching staff we have right now has been in place since saturday and have coached one game, a 4-0 victory over a weak Norwich side. What you say doesn't make any sense at all !

What kind of experience will we lose out on, the collective managerial know how of 4 ex-players that have been in charge for 4 games in which we have nothing to play for anymore ?

Moyes his biggest mistake was retaining alot of shitbags previous summer and not making the changes that had to be made. A mistake that will be repeated if we keep on Ryan Giggs as coach.

The biggest mistake in the Moyes saga has been the delirous decision to hire him while he lacked experience on the highest level and didn't offer anything more than the prospect of loyalty, hard work and his scottishness. If we hire Giggs we'll make that mistake again aswell, he'll be hired for all the wrong reasons and it won't end well.
A bit of jobs for the boys there. Why not even bring Mike Phelan back to help him, I am sure he would have come back. Rene might not have wanted it short term. Instead he brings in his mates who have only slightly more coaching experience than him.
 

Plugsy

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It's a bit of a tricky situation. I'm leaning towards giving Giggs the job. Get it out of the way so to speak. If he's a success - great. If not - he'd learn the hard way he's not ready yet and maybe give the next guy the time and patience he needs. Win-win.
Yeah I'm not sure if he's not a success yet another period without CL football would be considered "win-win".
 

Speak

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I'd say that the best players don't make the best managers. I can imagine they often struggle to adapt when they realise that the players they're coaching don't have the ability that they once did.

The best managers in the history of the game were/are mostly great thinkers. Being ruthless when needed, being nice when needed, knowing when and how to get under one man's skin, and when and how to pamper to certain players.
 

Lu Tze

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http://footballcantera.com/josep-guardiolas-greatest-achievement-barca-b-part-24/

The youth team lacked a plan. Josep Guardiola arrived with one, and transform a doomed b-team and youth system to a diamond mine. I will not go into detail on how the plan Guardiola and his men designed in 2007 looked like; but you can find it explained by Martí Pernarnau
What diamonds has the Barca youth system produced since 2007 I.e. 7 whole years? Busquets doesn't count since he was 19 when Guardiola managed the yoof, so he can hardly claim to have personally produced him...that leaves us with Bojan, Montoya, Bartra, Jonathas Dos Santos, Sergi Roberto, Cuenca, Tello, Deulofeu and finally Thiago. Hardly a comparable crop to the Xavi/Iniesta/Puyol generation. The only comparable one is Thiago and he fecked off.
 

scorgasm

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So, what's the latest? Been in dissertation hell last few days. Is there a problem or is he still odds on?
 

Revan

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How do we know the staff LVG want's to bring are any better than what we have? The lads in charge at present have vast experience of the club and have played under the greatest manager and many top coaches over the years. They all have great CV's.
Lets take the example of the goalkeeper's coach. He has as many titles as Van Gaal, coaching keepers of Ajax (Van Der Sar), Barca (Reina, Valdez amongst others), Bayern and Dutch National Side. More than 2 decades on coaching keepers. I guess he is (at-least for now) a better coach than Woods who has been working on Everton for years.

I guess other coaches too (which to be fair doesn't seem that much, an assistant, a video analyzer which we don't have and a psychologist or whatever he is) are more experienced than our newbie coaches.
 

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How do we know the staff LVG want's to bring are any better than what we have? The lads in charge at present have vast experience of the club and have played under the greatest manager and many top coaches over the years. They all have great CV's.
As players. They've never played nor coached under a manager like Van Gaal. How are they meant to teach his idea of football to the players, if they themselves need to learn it first. At least whoever Van Gaal brings along will know and understand it, and get to work straightaway. Fergie was the greatest manager of all time, but his way of doing things isn't the only way and may not apply to any other individual.
 

Jimy_Hills_Chin

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It would be the height of stupidity to appoint a manager who has admitted to 'being out of his comfort zone' in the position.

He is not ready and he is telling us himself.
 

Mister_Stubbs

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How do we know the staff LVG want's to bring are any better than what we have? The lads in charge at present have vast experience of the club and have played under the greatest manager and many top coaches over the years. They all have great CV's.
We don't but the guys LVG would bring with him I trust would be people he trusts, people who understand what VG tries to implement on the training ground etc hence why it makes sense to bring them in.
 

devilish

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What does it matter? The existence of Barca B is to produce players who will get into the first team, not to win Spanish third league.

By your logic then Warren Joyce did more than Sir Alex for our academy because he won the U21 title while SAF didn't win it. It just doesn't work that way.
Pep Guardiola revolutionized Barcelona B who were lingering to oblivion. He stopped the club from getting rid of Pedro and he got rid of various players to make space to a number of players including Busquets. Teamwork was key in Pep's football. He played a regular and solid side at Barcelona B making the transition to the first team easier
 

united_99

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Oh ffs, how is that even a question? The main reason ppl want van Gaal is that his coaching and tactical knowledge improves players big time. How will that happen if he doesn't have his coaches?
 

Diabo_Sam

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Roy Keane was, at the time of his retirement seen as an ideal manager in waiting, the quotes of "Similar determination as Fergie" " The same ruthless desire to win" and all this junk abound, he was a United player for about 14 years and multiple (7)x league winner as well, thank God we weren't looking for a replacement for SAF at the time eh?
I don't want Giggs over LvG a proven coach who'll repair our football at worst.. Giggs could easily be as big a flop in management as Keane, there are no guarantees, certainly not 1 win against a team who've picked up 1 point away all year.
I think I was clear about my argument, I am with appointing a proven manager but not LvG, if nobody is available but him then Giggs is better..
 

Stemmy

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How do we know the staff LVG want's to bring are any better than what we have? The lads in charge at present have vast experience of the club and have played under the greatest manager and many top coaches over the years. They all have great CV's.
..As players!

But you know, they are the class of 92' yo. Lets give them the job of managing Manchester United because its the class of 92' how cool would it be if they managed us?

They might well be good managers, hell even Giggs might be the next big thing however you don't throw rookies in the lead up mega corporations. Its a senseless risk and if any of you we're in any way logical about this you'd see that too.
 

Plugsy

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It would be the height of stupidity to appoint a manager who has admitted to 'being out of his comfort zone' in the position.

He is not ready and he is telling us himself.
People's standards are quite low, I've seen this week people claim he's clearly up for the job as he had the bottle to drop Mata. Amazing that Fergie managed to steal a living all those years if it's that simple.
 

Plugsy

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..As players!

But you know, they are the class of 92' yo. Lets give them the job of managing Manchester United because its the class of 92' how cool would it be if they managed us?

They might well be good managers, hell even Giggs might be the next big thing however you don't throw rookies in the lead up mega corporations. Its a senseless risk and if any of you we're in any way logical about this you'd see that too.
Its people trying to 'out red each other. They'll want the class of 92 involved and all but 2 of our 25 man squad next season promoted from the reserves because it's the "United way".

They don't really want that but we've always had this thing where fans fall over themselves to appear 'more Manchester United' than the others.
 

Sultan

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The backroom staff that was so experienced they should have never been replaced have been gone since Moyes and Giggs didn't bring them back.
He could hardly bring back Phelan and Moulesteen when he himself is an interim manager.
 

SteveJ

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This shouldn't even be a point of contention. Some managers bring in a dozen staff members & more, never mind five. It's unhealthy for the club's future if our board wants the '92 guys in place solely for PR reasons (or even because mistakes were made in Moyes' reign regarding fired staff). We can't afford to allow a 'soft' coup by old boys to happen, one which potentially undermines managers unless those boys are given jobs.
 

Lu Tze

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How do we know the staff LVG want's to bring are any better than what we have? The lads in charge at present have vast experience of the club and have played under the greatest manager and many top coaches over the years. They all have great CV's.
Because LVG has won 7 League titles and a CL and produced one of the greatest sides of all time - he probably knows how he likes to manage a club. None of the class of 92 have a shred of coaching/managing experience between em', and all they will serve to do in all likelihood is undermine the manager if things aren't going well, as people cry "let Giggs take over, he'll save us!".
 
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