Some notable ommissions in that list that would undoubtedly improve you
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Liverpool 2014/15 | WARNING: Contains strong amounts of Scouse nonsense
- Thread starter Wumminator
- Start date
Like who? I think of center mids and CBs. I don't see any ones I would actually want bar Henderson. You were one of the worst defensive units in the top half last season, possibly the worst barring 9th/10th place. Henderson would stroll into our midfield. Sterling would get into the squad and eventually the team.
Who else? Also Rafael is far superior to Johnson when fit, who yet again got dicked on in your last friendly.
I'd take Sterling and Lovren. After that we'd just be replacing their meh with our meh.
EDIT: Read wrongly my bad.
Comparing squads like that really shows the great work of Rodgers. I'd just have Henderson from their team for our first eleven. Lovren, Sturridge and Sterling for the squad.
We play different formations, so I don't think they'd necessarily want too many from our team in their first eleven either.
We play different formations, so I don't think they'd necessarily want too many from our team in their first eleven either.
Looked pretty underwhelming against Olympiacos. They were tosh throughout the game and it took a lucky goal at the start to send them through. I think they are going to have problems replacing Suarez next season without a top signing this transfer season. Markovic, Can and Lallana are players with potential but they need another season at least.
Definitely. He did a marvellous job but I'd be surprised if he could get them to play in the form of their lives, every season.
You have to put it in context though, for many players it was their first pre-season game and Markovic's too with new players around him.
It was about fitness levels, that's all.
Lallana hasn't played at all, and obviously Lovren hasn't either.
It's far too early to judge.
Sc
Scousehampton
It was pretty attritional and boring but that's often the nature of pre-season, either that or you thump a team by a high score - see City the other night. The problem with these games is that they are now broadcast live all over the world so become talking points. In days gone by friendlies were never on telly and often not filmed. That's because they don't really matter other than establish match fitness for the players and to bed in new players. The actual results are a secondary concern. The problem now is that friendlies become PR tours framed around a meaningless competition that offer false heightened status to fitness exercises. Fans then pour over the results as if they matter, reading into the performances. Heck, even the Community Shield has limited value in terms of predicting how a season will pan out for the two teams.
How is it a problem that the games are being discussed? If anything, it's good that they're televised and that fans can have some insight into the team's preparations.
And I don't agree with you that they have no interest whatsoever, they're good to have a look at certain players' form, at manager's tactics, etc. Of course they're mainly PR tours, but they're still a good indication at how a team is shaping up and especially when you can see all of them leading up to the start of the season, you have a good idea of the progress made by the squad, its state, and how well a team may start the season. And you can usually tell which players are going to hit the ground running at the start of the season as well.
It's a problem because these games are over-analysed and given way too much attention when the reality is they serve primarily as a fitness exercise. But fans don't see that element to it, they want a result which is actually secondary. Obviously discuss them but I do find it misguided when people look at these results as significant or informative. Norwich have just beaten top-flight Nice 5-1 - but does that mean anything really? How do we know Nice didn't run up a mountain that morning? These games come in the middle of intense fitness sessions. Plus, the manager often uses about 18 or so players per game.
As for giving an indication about players' form, it's not really too important. Iago Aspas had a very effective pre-season last year, scoring goals and linking up well. In 2007 when Liverpool bought Torres he looked totally disinterested in pre-season but then went on to score 33 goals. Matt Holland was on radio the other day saying you could win all your friendlies and then start the season horribly and vice versa.
I'm not saying they don't matter whatsoever, but they don't matter that much.
Yeah I guess we agree overall actually, I just enjoy that they're on TV now and I can catch in HD and not on some shit stream. I think there can be some interesting indications, like players linking up well, a youngster performing well, a certain player looking in great form... it won't necessarily translate into the season, and you always have to take into account the teams you're playing, their level, the intensity at which they play (for example, thrashing LA Galaxy when they're in the middle of a season and just before some important games, so a game where their players were probably more concerned about not getting injured). But I don't feel people look at the result that much, well that Liverpool game is a good example isn't it? People were reflecting more on the content of the game than the result (which you won); same for us, we beat Roma but a lot of us were very disappointed by large parts of the game. And I don't think people are saying 'Liverpool were poor against Olympiacos, they're going to have a shit season', they're just discussing what they saw. We spend our time (and so do you) during the summer discussing transfers and how a squad might shape up for the coming season, trying to make predictions, I don't think pre-season friendlies are less worthy of interest and discussion than anything else, as long as you're able to contextualize and give them the importance they deserve.
Pre-season friendlies are nice mostly because you get to have a look at what your new signings are like. That's all I take from them.
But, cf Aspas, and most infamously Bruno Cheyrou, you can't put too much weight on that either.
But, cf Aspas, and most infamously Bruno Cheyrou, you can't put too much weight on that either.
Absolutely
When we look at the new players Liverpool have brought in we shouldn't assume that they are like for like replacements. BR likes to play 4-3-3 and that is what we saw against Olympiakos in both halves with two different sets of players, he's trying players out to see how they adapt to that formation. The fact that the Remy transfer fell through has removed a major option (unless we go out and buy another of his ilk) that would have worked with his midfield diamond formation and two up top. We'll probably get another striker before the end of the transfer window though so the diamond will remain an option.
I guess we'll see something like the below for the first match (new signings excepted - a new LB, new striker and one more central MFer). I'm also excited to see this new 20 yr old LB, Javi Manquillo, that seems very decent from his videos. Maybe a backup for Flanno/Johnson but hopefully he'll see more time than the latter. The back line immediately looks a lot stronger than last season with Enrique's return, Lovren coming in (see video below) and Flanno replacing Johnson (Carra said he expects Flanno to start in the team next season). Frontline has frightening pace but there is a lot more responsibility on the likes of Sterling / Markovic / Coutinho to up their scoring rate this season. I expect lower scoring matches than last season (stronger defence, weaker attack) but similar results.
-------------------- Ming-------------------
Flanno ----- Skrtel ---- Lovren --- Enrique
------------------ Gerrard ------------------
-------- Henderson ----Coutinho -------------
Sterling -------- Sturridge ----- Markovic (Lallana)
Bench : Jones, Johnson, Sakho, Can, Allen, Lambert, Ibe or Suso (options that will probably be sold include Reina, Toure, Agger, Borini and possibly Lucas)
Neville & Carra on Lovren :
I guess we'll see something like the below for the first match (new signings excepted - a new LB, new striker and one more central MFer). I'm also excited to see this new 20 yr old LB, Javi Manquillo, that seems very decent from his videos. Maybe a backup for Flanno/Johnson but hopefully he'll see more time than the latter. The back line immediately looks a lot stronger than last season with Enrique's return, Lovren coming in (see video below) and Flanno replacing Johnson (Carra said he expects Flanno to start in the team next season). Frontline has frightening pace but there is a lot more responsibility on the likes of Sterling / Markovic / Coutinho to up their scoring rate this season. I expect lower scoring matches than last season (stronger defence, weaker attack) but similar results.
-------------------- Ming-------------------
Flanno ----- Skrtel ---- Lovren --- Enrique
------------------ Gerrard ------------------
-------- Henderson ----Coutinho -------------
Sterling -------- Sturridge ----- Markovic (Lallana)
Bench : Jones, Johnson, Sakho, Can, Allen, Lambert, Ibe or Suso (options that will probably be sold include Reina, Toure, Agger, Borini and possibly Lucas)
Neville & Carra on Lovren :
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Interesting analysis of Lovren there from the Sky lads. Rodgers wants a leader at the back and I believe he's bought one. A very solid looking use of money.
I think Lovren is a good buy. They still need one more good player though. They are going into the season with a lot of responsibility on Sturridge's shoulders to score goals.
Lovren-Sakho is the new thing I am most looking forward to this season.
So am I, but probably for different reasons
The buys they've made should secure another top four finish this season I would think, even without Suarez. Lovren is a good purchase and a much needed one with how poor their defence was last season.
For all the criticism United supporters are giving this Liverpool side that Rodgers has built (and I'm not saying they don't have weaknesses), at the moment I very much doubt United are getting beyond them unless they make 2-3 proper signings in the last load of weeks here.
For all the criticism United supporters are giving this Liverpool side that Rodgers has built (and I'm not saying they don't have weaknesses), at the moment I very much doubt United are getting beyond them unless they make 2-3 proper signings in the last load of weeks here.
They won't be anywhere near as devastating as last season without Suarez. They'll still likely transition quickly from defense to attack, but you can tell that Brendan wants more solidity through the spine of the team. Seems he's likely to play 4-3-3 with Coutinho playing deeper again unless Can breaks through (looks like he could be a shrewd buy for them).
They won't leak as many goals that's for sure. Sakho is much better than people give him credit on here - he had a decent world cup, and is actually pretty good on the ball too (despite falling over after kicking it, so people think otherwise). Lovren was one of the best defenders in the league last season - there's no reason he shouldn't be able to build a good partnership with Sakho.
As much as we all look at that team and say they haven't replaced with quality, we did all pinpoint depth as a big weakness for them going into this season and they're definitely in the process of answering that.
There's quality available. I think Cavani would be a great buy for them but it seems he plans to use Sturridge as the main striker. Lavezzi or even Lucas Moura would be fairly realistic options I think for the wing, not Suarez quality but still very good. Since Shaqiri doesn't seem to be happening I'd have thought they might consider these 2.
They won't leak as many goals that's for sure. Sakho is much better than people give him credit on here - he had a decent world cup, and is actually pretty good on the ball too (despite falling over after kicking it, so people think otherwise). Lovren was one of the best defenders in the league last season - there's no reason he shouldn't be able to build a good partnership with Sakho.
As much as we all look at that team and say they haven't replaced with quality, we did all pinpoint depth as a big weakness for them going into this season and they're definitely in the process of answering that.
There's quality available. I think Cavani would be a great buy for them but it seems he plans to use Sturridge as the main striker. Lavezzi or even Lucas Moura would be fairly realistic options I think for the wing, not Suarez quality but still very good. Since Shaqiri doesn't seem to be happening I'd have thought they might consider these 2.
Good post.
EDIT : Aahhhhhh ! I've just noticed the poster - Glockette ! There's no getting away from you
Replacing Suarez 1:1 was never an option. Strengthening the team and bench was, exactly as United have done twice when they sold Ronaldo for 80m just after he'd scored 40+ goals. United then won the league 2 out of the following 3 seasons. It was then virtually identical when shipping out Van Nistelrooy who was scoring for fun and then replaced him with Carrick and what do they do ? They went and won the league again. Losing your only world class player doesn't mean the end of the team.
Shaqiri may still be available but this is the quote today :
ESPN
The advisor of Liverpool target Xherdan Shaqiri has said all talks with other clubs are "on ice" as they discuss the player's future with Bayern Munich.
Shaqiri, 22, moved to Bayern in 2012, but has played just 43 games, including 17 Bundesliga matches last season, for the club since that switch from Basel. Out of contract in a year, the attacking midfielder has been linked with a transfer with Liverpool and Juventus.
However, the player's advisor and brother, Erdin, told Sport Bild Plus that Bayern would get the first opportunity to dictate where the promising youngster's future lies even if he left the door open to a departure. "There are currently no talks with other clubs. Our main partner in talks is Bayern Munich, and we have put talks with other clubs on ice. "It has been made clear to us that Xherdan has a good standing among the Bayern bosses. However, it remains to be seen how the talks go with Bayern, and whether an optimal solution can be found."
Yeah, I had this discussion with the podcast lads last week. If you can't replace with quality then you move players about and change the system.
People think we replaced Ronaldo & Tevez with Valencia and Owen. Valencia was part of it for sure, but the biggest impact was moving Rooney to the top and giving Berbatov more game time. We lost the tactical flexibility and counter attacking brilliance that we had playing the 4-3-3 with Rooney, Tevez and Ronaldo interchanging in those forward positions with a more rigid 4-4-2. We were more solid, and tried to play a slower paced game that generally seemed to rely on wing play or individual brilliance rather than breaking fast on the counter.
Liverpool will concede less goals and have more of the ball this coming season. They won't be quite as great to watch, and they won't be so devastating going forward but that's a given considering the quality that they've lost.
People think we replaced Ronaldo & Tevez with Valencia and Owen. Valencia was part of it for sure, but the biggest impact was moving Rooney to the top and giving Berbatov more game time. We lost the tactical flexibility and counter attacking brilliance that we had playing the 4-3-3 with Rooney, Tevez and Ronaldo interchanging in those forward positions with a more rigid 4-4-2. We were more solid, and tried to play a slower paced game that generally seemed to rely on wing play or individual brilliance rather than breaking fast on the counter.
Liverpool will concede less goals and have more of the ball this coming season. They won't be quite as great to watch, and they won't be so devastating going forward but that's a given considering the quality that they've lost.
OK I'm going to post this up before I go to bed (already 04.00 here) ! Chew on this for a bit :
NOTE : I WROTE THIS BEFORE REMY FAILED HIS MEDICAL SO SUBSTITUTE ANOTHER STRIKER AT WILL (because for sure there will be at least one).
_____________
Where are Liverpool's goals going to come from next season now that Suarez has gone to Barca. This may be a little pre-emptive with, I'm sure, a few transfers to come but .....
Looking at our likely squad for 2014/15 (I expect another MF or Forward so I've added A.N.Other) I can see us scoring at least 111 goals against 117 goals with Suarez in 2013/14.**
We achieve this by spreading the scoring responsibility across the team rather than having it concentrated in 3 players (Suarez, Sturridge and Gerrard = 71 goals) and maintain our Goal Difference by improved defensive solidity.
**This is based on the same number of games as 2013/14 - I expect possibly another 10 games this coming season and so would need to adjust the goals scored per player accordingly (depending on the number of matches they play vs 2013/14).
Sturridge 21 (2013/14 : 25)
Sterling 15 (13)
Remy 13 (14 for Newcastle in 27 games)
Gerrard 10 (15)
Lallana 8 (10 for Southampton in 39 games)
Lambert 7 (14 for Southampton in 38 games)
Coutinho 8 (5)
Henderson 7 (6)
A.N.Other 5 (TBC)
Markovic 3 (1 for Benfica in 13 games)
Skrtel 3 (7)
Sakho 3 (1)
Can 2 (4 for Leverkusen in 39 games)
Lovren 2 (2 for Southampton in 31 games)
Allen 1 (2)
Johnson 1 (0)
Enrique 1 (0)
Other Scorers in 2013/14
Suarez 31
Aspas 5
Agger 2
Moses 2
Kelly 1
Cissokho 1
Alberto 1
An historical look back at the PL shows that no team has come even close to repeating 100+ (only 3 teams ever having topped 100 ; Chelsea 103, City 102 and Liverpool 101) with following seasons around 80. There are also only 3 seasons where more than 86 goals were needed to win the PL* (City in 2012 with 93, Chelsea in 2010 with 103 and City in 2014 with 103) though as can be seen 3 of those were in the past 5 seasons.
Looking at all the strengthening going on in the PL due to the influx of PL sponsorship and TV money it may be considerably more difficult (using City for example) to knock 3, 4, 5 or more goals past teams week in week out or to run up a 6-0 or 7-0. Not that it won't happen, but all of the above possibly being less frequent than in 2013/14.
To maintain our position in the Top 4 then we theoretically may need no more than 80-85 goals and to concede no more than 38-40. I suspect we will be winning more games by 3-1, 2-0, 2-1, 1-0 than the 6-3, 5-2, 4-3 etc. of 2013/14.
3 points is still 3 points no matter the goal difference.
Or to put it another way (see below) the lowest number of goals scored to still obtain a Top 4 finish in the PL is between 55 and 72 goals. Even just using the past 5 seasons as a guide, I would be very surprised if we don't score at least 72 goals in the PL.
01 - United 79 (lowest in Top 4 = 63)
02 - Arsenal 79 (67)
03 - United 74 (63)
04 - Arsenal 73 (55)
05 - Chelsea 72 (45)
06 - Chelsea 72 (57)
07 - United 83 (63)
08 - United 80 (65)
09 - United 68 (68)
10 - Chelsea 103 (67)
11 - United 78 (72)
12 - City 93 (66)
13 - United 86 (72)
14 - City 102 (68)
NOTE : I WROTE THIS BEFORE REMY FAILED HIS MEDICAL SO SUBSTITUTE ANOTHER STRIKER AT WILL (because for sure there will be at least one).
_____________
Where are Liverpool's goals going to come from next season now that Suarez has gone to Barca. This may be a little pre-emptive with, I'm sure, a few transfers to come but .....
Looking at our likely squad for 2014/15 (I expect another MF or Forward so I've added A.N.Other) I can see us scoring at least 111 goals against 117 goals with Suarez in 2013/14.**
We achieve this by spreading the scoring responsibility across the team rather than having it concentrated in 3 players (Suarez, Sturridge and Gerrard = 71 goals) and maintain our Goal Difference by improved defensive solidity.
**This is based on the same number of games as 2013/14 - I expect possibly another 10 games this coming season and so would need to adjust the goals scored per player accordingly (depending on the number of matches they play vs 2013/14).
Sturridge 21 (2013/14 : 25)
Sterling 15 (13)
Remy 13 (14 for Newcastle in 27 games)
Gerrard 10 (15)
Lallana 8 (10 for Southampton in 39 games)
Lambert 7 (14 for Southampton in 38 games)
Coutinho 8 (5)
Henderson 7 (6)
A.N.Other 5 (TBC)
Markovic 3 (1 for Benfica in 13 games)
Skrtel 3 (7)
Sakho 3 (1)
Can 2 (4 for Leverkusen in 39 games)
Lovren 2 (2 for Southampton in 31 games)
Allen 1 (2)
Johnson 1 (0)
Enrique 1 (0)
Other Scorers in 2013/14
Suarez 31
Aspas 5
Agger 2
Moses 2
Kelly 1
Cissokho 1
Alberto 1
An historical look back at the PL shows that no team has come even close to repeating 100+ (only 3 teams ever having topped 100 ; Chelsea 103, City 102 and Liverpool 101) with following seasons around 80. There are also only 3 seasons where more than 86 goals were needed to win the PL* (City in 2012 with 93, Chelsea in 2010 with 103 and City in 2014 with 103) though as can be seen 3 of those were in the past 5 seasons.
Looking at all the strengthening going on in the PL due to the influx of PL sponsorship and TV money it may be considerably more difficult (using City for example) to knock 3, 4, 5 or more goals past teams week in week out or to run up a 6-0 or 7-0. Not that it won't happen, but all of the above possibly being less frequent than in 2013/14.
To maintain our position in the Top 4 then we theoretically may need no more than 80-85 goals and to concede no more than 38-40. I suspect we will be winning more games by 3-1, 2-0, 2-1, 1-0 than the 6-3, 5-2, 4-3 etc. of 2013/14.
3 points is still 3 points no matter the goal difference.
Or to put it another way (see below) the lowest number of goals scored to still obtain a Top 4 finish in the PL is between 55 and 72 goals. Even just using the past 5 seasons as a guide, I would be very surprised if we don't score at least 72 goals in the PL.
01 - United 79 (lowest in Top 4 = 63)
02 - Arsenal 79 (67)
03 - United 74 (63)
04 - Arsenal 73 (55)
05 - Chelsea 72 (45)
06 - Chelsea 72 (57)
07 - United 83 (63)
08 - United 80 (65)
09 - United 68 (68)
10 - Chelsea 103 (67)
11 - United 78 (72)
12 - City 93 (66)
13 - United 86 (72)
14 - City 102 (68)
The problem with this approach is that Sturridge, remy and lambert all played as main strikers and will be interchanged for each other, so rather than 41 goal between each, it's more likely to be something like 25 combined, same can be said for sterling, coutinho, llama and markovic, with 2 playing at anyone time, so instead of 31 goals you are looking at 22...
Also gerrards majority of goals were pens, with his fecked legs his not going to bomb on so you are counting on being as lucky next season, plus im sure Lambert was southamptons penalty taker so one of Gerrard and lambert will see a reduction in goals....
Prior year goal scoring means very little for next years projects, there's obviously a whole load of factors that come into play and it's likely that Liverpools style will change to be more solid which might mean less goals.
Of course the main issue with this approach is that goals scored mean very little, points are the only things that win championships
Agreed, I think we've taken two steps forward last season and one step back this coming. But are laying the foundation for another two steps forward again after that.
Hopefully the one step back this season will still see us finish in CL spots.
But high number of goals will likely get you very close (see Liverpool last season). Get near 100 and it's likely you win the league. Top 4 is a given.
One very interesting fact from last year for Liverpool is how the team finished the season. In the second half of the season Liverpool's scoring became extremely impressive:
- 19: games played
- 59: goals scored
- 5: the number of teams who exceeded 59 goals over 38 games
- 12: the number of goals scored by Suarez
- 20%: the percentage of goals contributed by Suarez
From January Liverpool had clicked into gear with goals coming from all angles - kind of contends with the simplistic analysis that Liverpool were ALL Suarez. The reality is that systemically the side were set up to out score opponents using high pace and aggressive attacking that often saw Liverpool out of sight by half-time.
What you also need to remember in this analysis is that teams put so much emphasis on keeping that buck tooth rodent quiet that others got less attention than they otherwise would have. Would be interesting to see how Sturridge does this term with him being the lead striker and opponents making sure him and Sterling are their attention.
I am sorry but your squad is perhaps bigger but your first 11 is definitely worse off than last year. It was similar to when you lost Alonso and got in a couple of decent players to bolster your squad depth. It had an immediate impact on your performances.
According to this post, Liverpool are almost sure to be in the top 4. Chelsea and City are obviously going to be there. That leaves Arsenal from last year and even they have added Sanchez to their squad. So if we don't add to our current squad, you see us finishing out of the top 4? Seriously? I am quite confident we will not only be in the top 4 but will also be ahead of Liverpool.
Pre season so far has been very encouraging but yes, I think with our laughable midfield we will be lucky to make the top four without adding a Vidal/Bastian to the midfield.
This is incredibly blinkered in its analysis as it assumes that teams haven't got the tactical acumen to contend with more than one player. City, United, Arsenal, Everton, Spurs and Southampton were amongst the best defences last season but all failed to stop Liverpool scoring at least 3 goals after Christmas. If you go by your logic these teams were not equipped to contend with one player's talents as they were so preoccupied by his brilliance that the rest of the team ran riot. What are clubs doing paying these managers? Your view totally ignores the contributions made by other players who scored 47 goals in those 19 games.
The narrative that attributes last season's strong showing almost exclusively to Suarez is extremely one-eyed and ignores the realities of what happened.
As for Sturridge, I think he scored 9 goals during Suarez's 10 game absence. A good return.
You must buy first.
Bored of these "who will finish top 4?" discussions. Anyone outside of Chelsea and City who utter the words "I am quite confident we'll finish top 4" are just deluded.
I'll make a different prediction - For all the arguments about how Van Persie is a better player, the moyes effect etc I am going to predict that Sturridge will nevertheless outscore him in the league once again this season.
Edit: For reference, league stats since Sturridge moved to Liverpool:
-/2013: RVP: 17 games, 10 goals. Studge: 16 games, 10 goals.
2013/2014: RVP: 21 games, 12 goals. Studge: 29 games, 21 goals.
I'll make a different prediction - For all the arguments about how Van Persie is a better player, the moyes effect etc I am going to predict that Sturridge will nevertheless outscore him in the league once again this season.
Edit: For reference, league stats since Sturridge moved to Liverpool:
-/2013: RVP: 17 games, 10 goals. Studge: 16 games, 10 goals.
2013/2014: RVP: 21 games, 12 goals. Studge: 29 games, 21 goals.
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I think you should be banned if you ever use the nickname Studge ever again.
Those LFC scorers benefited greatly from having to play alongside Suarez, who not only was scoring and assisting, but was also creating spaces and opportunities for others by pulling away the attention of the opponent's defenders.
That's exactly what I was saying a while back. Suarez opened up so much space and demanded defenders to constantly be on his back, distracting them from other threats. Liverpool fans are in for a shock of they think they're going to cope fine without him.
Arsenal with RvP didn't turn to shite. United with Ronaldo didn't. Spurs with Bale didn't. United supporters will be in for even more of a shock if they think we'll suddenly collapse.