[Roopea]

The most frustrating thing about all of this is that the vast majority of United fans knew the problems with the squad for years now, but nothing has been done! It's as if we have been watching a completely different team to Fergie, Moyes & Van Gaal.

Every summer since 2009 or possibly 2010, most United fans have been crying out to the board to strengthen our midfield and wingers but little has been done. And when Vidic, Rio and Evra leave in the same window we sign just one young LB before the start of the season. This is just pure madness! Not only did we lose three highly experienced players, but we lost three influential characters and leaders in one swoop. The fact that we were struggling for candidates for the captaincy just shows how threadbare we are for leaders.

As much as I rate Van Gaal and what he has achieved, he surely could not have been serious when he said he had to give all players a chance at the start of pre-season. Anyone that even has the faintest idea of United knows that some players do not deserve another chance and should have been shipped out long before he even officially took charge of the first training session in mid July.

I do have confidence that Van Gaal will turn it round eventually, but the amount of dithering by both LVG & Woodward has been unforgivable especially after the season we had last year and the financial consequences of finishing outside the top 4 this season are almost unthinkable.

 

[Amethyst]

What a waste! Who would condone spending such money on Mata?
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/mat...t-a-mata-of-time.372687/page-58#post-14897117

How did I miss this earlier?

 

[DomesticTadpole]

It was better but not good enough. And settling for it was the root of the problems we are facing now....

Because we were winning the league or challenging at least, people accepted it without realising that when SAF left you are just left with dross football and no winning or challenging. If anything we could have done with a LvG last year, we would then be in the 2nd year of rebuilding and might be seeing some real progress. Instead we were left with a year in limbo and are now having to start all over again.

 

[Igor Drefljak]

A few things...
The back 4 have been pathetically incapable of defending by themselves for the past 4/5 seasons and I've been saying it every year, but Fergies success has masked that problem. Our players are deceptively average/poor and everyone sees that except for the club themselves, maybe it's because they are all equally average that the effort in training they put make them relatively good to each other, yet still shit to other teams? Feck I don't know. Once again, that's never bothered us because, well, Fergie. Apart from that vent, we had almost half our 'starting 11' out today, so until we get a solid starting 11 out and playing, we can't make any judgements on Van Gaals perception of the squad, seeing as half of his work is yet to be seen in action.

The problem is, a lot on here live on past reputation and hope.
You get a few, what would considered, reputable posters who defend the likes of Jones and Smalling and make excuses that they don't play regular enough, or that they haven't played in their natural positions, and then people buy into it.
I see it at a lot on here, how people think Smalling is as good as the rest in the prem, and all that he is lacking is a string of games to bring that out of him.

But anyway, that is on here, the Manager should spot this for himself

 

[DomesticTadpole]

A few things...
The back 4 have been pathetically incapable of defending by themselves for the past 4/5 seasons and I've been saying it every year, but Fergies success has masked that problem. Our players are deceptively average/poor and everyone sees that except for the club themselves, maybe it's because they are all equally average that the effort in training they put make them relatively good to each other, yet still shit to other teams? Feck I don't know. Once again, that's never bothered us because, well, Fergie. Apart from that vent, we had almost half our 'starting 11' out today, so until we get a solid starting 11 out and playing, we can't make any judgements on Van Gaals perception of the squad, seeing as half of his work is yet to be seen in action.

Problem is unless they are back by next weekend it might be too late yet again. Carrick is the one we need back and he isn't going to be back in time. Welbeck would be an improvement, RVP. Some I am not bothered about.

 

[Amir]

Because we were winning the league or challenging at least, people accepted it without realising that when SAF left you are just left with dross football and no winning or challenging.

To be fair I don't think many people were settling for it. You could see that every summer with people here desperate for midfield additions, or that Zombie thread. But at the end of the day, we can't lead the change ourselves and it the team isn't playing good football but are still winning than obviously we're happy with it.

Still, while disappointed with the idea it's going to take time, I find the process we're just starting as highly interesting. And also terrifying. There are no assurances it will work.

 

[Spoony]

To be fair I don't think many people were settling for it. You could see that every summer with people here desperate for midfield additions, or that Zombie thread. But at the end of the day, we can't lead the change ourselves and it the team isn't playing good football but are still winning than obviously we're happy with it.

Still, while disappointed with the idea it's going to take time, I find the process we're just starting as highly interesting. And also terrifying. There are no assurances it will work.

And plenty of fans weren't happy with our style of play. Shit has hit the fan though, Fergie stretched that side(the old guard) as much as he could've, when it was blatantly obvious that we needed quality to replace quality....rather than see the older players carry us through before fading into obscurity. That said it wouldn't have been cheap but heh...

 

[saivet]

352 was abandoned at half time, both their goals came from midfielders breaking into/on the edge of our box, we struggled to play through them, we barely had any real chances of note so can't exactly proclaim being unlucky, in the last 20mins it was Moyes time once more, lumping the ball aimlessly, pretty tragic,
On the plus side Blacket did relatively well and Januzaj looked different class when he initially came on, ho-hum.. Mata was invisible, Fletcher was woeful, between his passing and slowing our play down endlessly, oh and slow, crap passing was back in full force, LvG has his work cut out trying to turn some of these perennial underperformers into actual footballers.

V poor first half. Okayish in terms of possession, but slow slow slow. They scored on the counter attack with a shot from a late midfield runner that none of our midfielders were remotely near. Not quite smash and grab as they were comfortable defending, but about their only attack of note.

Second half we switched to 4-4-1-1 with Mata behind Rooney, which was a surprise. Januzaj came on 1st half for the injured Lingard, so he played wide right, Nani wide left, Young left back, Jones right back. Got a bit more tempo second half, equalised with a decent goal from a corner.

Then we just went flat again and they scored with about 15 to go after a quick free kick which led to a counter attack, and another midfield runner not being picked up scored the winner.

After they scored, we did basically nothing. horribly similar to last season.

I would say the only two plus points were Januzaj, who was (relatively speaking) excellent when he came on, and Tyler Blackett on his debut, who was easily as good as Jones & Smalling (that might sound like faint praise, its not meant to be).

Rooney worked hard but didn't really influence the game, Mata was anonymous. Hernandez taken off at half time. Fletcher had a poor game sadly after his promising pre-season. And LVG strangely took off Herrera (who was the better of the two) and put on Fellaini, who looked like he might have a decent game, but then was horribly exposed for their second goal.

So, all in all, little different from last season.

People will probably blame the 3-5-2, but tbh I thought we had better structure in the first half. It was just horribly slow. I think he changed it because the team was so nervous, but then second half we just had no shape.

Also, you may find a thread in here pointing this out, but a bird shit in Ashely Young's mouth, which was truly one of the oddest things Ive ever seen in a match. and I saw lightening strike old trafford once, but this was odder.

Thanks for that, appreciate it.

Doesn't sound pretty at all which is a great shame. Doubt I'll now watch a full rerun of the match but watch MOTD when I can. Hopefully we can improve but I think those who thought our problems had vanished were naive. Still think that if we don't sign new players top 4 with be a real battle for us.

 

[Sam]

Is anyone really that surprised with the result? Just look at the team, Jones, Blackett, Lingard, Fletcher, Young, Hernandez....so much averageness.

We're absolutely miles away from the likes of City and Chelsea.

 

[bucky]

Is anyone really that surprised with the result? Just look at the team, Jones, Blackett, Lingard, Fletcher, Young, Hernandez....so much averageness.

We're absolutely miles away from the likes of City and Chelsea.

Odd, since Jones was one of the better players out there.

 

[Sam]

Odd, since Jones was one of the better players out there.

He spent half the game making last ditch tackles to make up for his original mistake.

 

[bosnian_red]

Odd, since Jones was one of the better players out there.

Yeah but that doesn't make him an excellent player...
Outside of Rooney, mata, de gea and Herrera, the others that started today wouldn't get a look in at other top 4 teams.

 

[bucky]

Yeah but that doesn't make him an excellent player...
Outside of Rooney, mata, de gea and Herrera, the others that started today wouldn't get a look in at other top 4 teams.

Well, I think Wenger would start Smalling ahead of Chambers for example. And Jones is certainly not average, he probably wasn't as good as he can be or should be, but it's not a fair assessment of him.

 

[x42bn6]

A cool time-lapse of the players' positions throughout the match:

 

[shaggy]

Well, I think Wenger would start Smalling ahead of Chambers for example. And Jones is certainly not average, he probably wasn't as good as he can be or should be, but it's not a fair assessment of him.

Really not sure on Jones. He is so clumsy and reckless. I don't think he has improved at all since he's been here to be honest.

 

[bruiser]

Did you miss this last summer then? He's a world class manager, always has been and has won trophies wherever he's been. As a tactician he's up there with the very best. "Allowing Swansea to win", what a ridiculous thing to say. Not his fault exactly that our defenders are shite and the midfield is a mess, and the whole squad is injury prone?

No, I didn't miss last summer. Holland were hit and miss. Beat Spain, almost lost to Australia, should have lost to Costa Rica. Sometimes van Gaal gets it right; other times, like today, he's hopelessly wrong. Let's get real here and not make someone out to be what they are not.

 

[.Rossi]

Players we've lost since 2009:
van der Sar
Neville
Evra
Hargreaves
Ferdinand
Brown
Ronaldo
Saha
Berbatov
Giggs
Vidic
Scholes
O'Shea
Silvestre
Pogba
Tevez
And obviously SAF

Players we've bought since 2009:
Valencia
Owen
Obertan
Smalling
Hernandez
Bebe
Lindegaard
Jones
Young
De Gea
Kagawa
Powell
van Persie
Buttner
Zaha
Fellaini
Mata
Shaw
Herrera

With the obvious exception of RVP and De Gea, Shaw and Herrera are way too early to judge, that is one hell of a decline.

What else did you expect to happen?!

 

[soap]

I thought adnan was kinda shit today personally... While I guess its true he was at least trying to take people on, his end product is normally a lot better. Not much positive to take from today's game at all other than Jones making some Jones-esque tackles. Rooney looked up for it too I guess, despite picking the wrong pass a couple times.

 

[Sam]

With the obvious exception of RVP and De Gea, Shaw and Herrera are way too early to judge, that is one hell of a decline.

What else did you expect to happen?!

The thing is, people keep saying that SAF was a genius to get so much out of such little quality (which he was) but its his fault that we have such little quality in the first place. Its almost a taboo subject on here, but SAF's transfer record from about 2007 onwards is terrible, bordering on negligent (especially post Ronaldo).

 

[.Rossi]

The thing is, people keep saying that SAF was a genius to get so much out of such little quality (which he was) but its his fault that we have such little quality in the first place. Its almost a taboo subject on here, but SAF's transfer record from about 2007 onwards is terrible, bordering on negligent (especially post Ronaldo).

Just look at the list of players....It's the first time I've sat down and thought them out....It scared me

 

[bruiser]

No, I didn't miss last summer. Holland were hit and miss. Beat Spain, almost lost to Australia, should have lost to Costa Rica. Sometimes van Gaal gets it right; other times, like today, he's hopelessly wrong. Let's get real here and not make someone out to be what they are not.

Just to continue my post, since rereading it sounds unduly negative.

The first step in improving any situation is understanding and acknowledging the problem. The facts are, and must be accepted, that United are currently a mid-table team and have recruited a manager whose principal successes were several years ago. He needs the support of everyone and the finances needed to turn this team into something much better. It is what it is.

Any manager would struggle right now at United because, in recent years, there has been a lack of focus on the future. The worst thing you can do when winning is simply believing you'll always win. The best companies, for example, creatively destruct their very best in order to improve and stay at the top. If they don't do that, others will. That's what has happened here: complacency and arrogance when winning and not understanding that, without always focusing on the best possible future, winning ways can and will end. This is not something that can be fixed quickly, and it's unwarranted optimism to think otherwise.

Van Gaal is a decent manager, probably the best available who was willing to take the job. It's a fact, though, that most of his success was over a decade ago. To claim that success then will translate to success today, many years later, is a bit risky. There's certainly a chance he'll succeed, but it's way too soon to be claiming he's a great manager because, when compared to many others today, he just isn't.

What is needed is a strategy, a vision of the future, and a commitment from everyone - owners, manager, players, and fans - to accept nothing but the best. It also requires total commitment and patience in the short term, because there are going to be disappointments along the way. The best way to get rich, as they say, is slowly. Likewise, the best way to become champions and remain champions is slowly - focusing on the vision and doing everything consistent with a clear strategy.

 

[MZX7]

I said it before (in this thread) and I will say it again - we were toothless in attack. Mata and Hernandez did nothing, Rooney did very little. Blame the defence all you want but in 90 minutes we barely put them under any serious pressure despite having the majority of the ball.

Blame the "average" players like Smalling and Fellaini but it was the supposedly strong attack that lost the game for us, in my book.

Just wondering, where do you think the attack needs to build up from? Jeez...

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Odd, since Jones was one of the better players out there.

Poor on the ball, though. He seemed to think someone had chucked him an explosive every time he received a pass. And this guy used to go on rampaging runs forwArd taking multiple opponents out of the game, when he first came to united.

 

[Xaviesta]

Peps Barcelona lost their first league game, drew the next, and then finally clicked into shape. Pep had a much fuller selection of players than LVG. Aswell. These metmorphisis dont happen over night guys.

Pep also inherited a Barça side that wasn't in great shape like this united side is, so there's still hope for you, but signings are needed big time.

 

[penalty snot]

Alright.

• We had a right footed winger at left back.
• A young inexperienced defender at centre back.
• For a short time we had another winger playing right wing back, got injured and replaced by another winger.
• A central midfielder that's played more pre season games this year than he has any games over the last three years.
• A midfielder that played his first premier league game and didn't do too great (see Vidic and Evra).
• Fellaini.
• Several injuries to key players.

Taking this into account a result like this is always possible especially since we're on the way back up (kind of).

Positive for me is that unlike last season, we're not getting played off the park by teams we shouldbe dominating at OT.

The only criticism I have is taking of Herrera. When he went, there read virtually no midfield. Massive error from management.

It's going to be a long season guys. Dig in and prepare for it. <- how the feck do you delete this smiley

 

[Walrus]

Just wondering, where do you think the attack needs to build up from? Jeez...

If we have 65% possession, that should be enough of the ball for the attacking players to create chances. We are playing a system specifically designed to get the best out of the strikers and Mata, and they were rubbish yesterday.

 

[BigWillprunier]

We are desperately lacking real pace in any department, all our football is played in front of their back four with no penetration whatsoever.
We need at least 4 top quality players and that is the minimum.
We were missing a couple of influential players but that's no excuse, we should still easily have enough to beat the likes of Swansea at home.
It's now or never Mr Woodward, we will already have to pay way over the odds for any player to make up for the lack of Champions league football but if we continue like this it won't matter how much money we throw at potential signings.

 

[RedSky]

Alright.

• We had a right footed winger at left back.
• A young inexperienced defender at centre back.
• For a short time we had another winger playing right wing back, got injured and replaced by another winger.
• A central midfielder that's played more pre season games this year than he has any games over the last three years.
• A midfielder that played his first premier league game and didn't do too great (see Vidic and Evra).
• Fellaini.
• Several injuries to key players.

Taking this into account a result like this is always possible especially since we're on the way back up (kind of).

Positive for me is that unlike last season, we're not getting played off the park by teams we shouldbe dominating at OT.

The only criticism I have is taking of Herrera. When he went, there read virtually no midfield. Massive error from management.

It's going to be a long season guys. Dig in and prepare for it. <- how the feck do you delete this smiley

The most frustrating element to our game atm is that it's obvious we need at least another CM. It's just so bleeding obvious! We can't pin our hopes on Fletcher and Carrick. We need reinforcing as Fellaini/Cleverley/Anderson aren't the answer.

 

[mcGonigle]

Silly mistakes cost you at the back, and Fellaini should have came on for Fletcher. Mata needs to be more involved instead of STILL playing it out wide at every given opportunity, although Herrera was trying to play through balls to them on occasions. The long balls to the strikers need to be cut down too.

Are you kidding??
Granted Fletch wasnt great, Felaini was ball watching for the second goal and spent the afternoon swinging his arms around, he should have got a yellow card at least...

We have too many bad players, Young, Nani, Fellaini....... Hernandez doesnt fit...

YOU CANT POLISH A TURD

 

[SilentWitness]

Are you kidding??
Granted Fletch wasnt great, Felaini was ball watching for the second goal and spent the afternoon swinging his arms around, he should have got a yellow card at least...

We have too many bad players, Young, Nani, Fellaini....... Hernandez doesnt fit...

YOU CANT POLISH A TURD

Yawn.

 

[Yorkeontop]

The game felt like a continuation of last season. The thought of that really does jar the system. Its like "are we still here"? And yes we are!

 

[MZX7]

If we have 65% possession, that should be enough of the ball for the attacking players to create chances. We are playing a system specifically designed to get the best out of the strikers and Mata, and they were rubbish yesterday.

I've read other posts under this thread where you have used this statistic to prove your point that our attack is hopeless. You're using a non-related quantitative statistic to prove a qualitative claim. Total disconnect.

 

[Walrus]

I've read other posts under this thread where you have used this statistic to prove your point that our attack is hopeless. You're using a non-related quantitative statistic to prove a qualitative claim. Total disconnect.

How you can say that the two are not related is beyond me.

I said that our attack has not done its job, we struggle to break down any defence where the opponent puts men behind the ball.

You said that this isn't the fault of our attack as they need something to build from.

I point out that we had 65% possession and thus should have had plenty to build from. We have a supposedly world class #10 in Mata, and two strikers in front of him. Between the three of them, with support from the WBs and CMs, they should be able to create something, whereas we barely created a chance all game. Thus I say the attack is equally to blame as the defence.

 

[caid]

Was away for the weekend and only heard the match on the radio.
There seems to be a few obvious problems that have been there for years.
But theres some that have started rearing their head more recently and are worrying as the solution is less obvious.

The players dont really react well to playing at old trafford recently.
They get nervous quite early, theres a lack of patience or belief that it'll work out. Some players are trying to hard to ...
i dont know, be a hero. Others are hiding or anonymous too often.
I dont know ... maybe the supporters could maybe look at our behaviour.
Think the supports been good and the heart is in the right place but it seems tense there recently.

Then theres the obvious problems that were there in pre-season too, so we shouldn't be surprised by them to be fair.

Correct me if im wrong but every single one of our first choice back 5 has been injured already at one point or another.
Apart from the obvious not having them available, we never get a chance really for them to create partnerships and just
be comfortable together.
I think all 4 of rafa, jones, smalling and evans are good players but ... it might be time to replace 2 or 3 of them for
players who will be fit consistently. Even if they're not quite as talented, just having a settled defence would be nice.

Both cleverley and fletcher had some very good, encouraging matches in pre-season but both had weak games
that were standard fare last season too. They'll continue to have both i presume.
Herrera hasn't hit the ground running, he's been quite good but he's capable of better. We've seen flashes already
and im looking forward to seeing more of him. It might take a while to settle and thats fine. He could do with a more capable
partner in there to help him through that patch though. Even if they're doing a bit of settling themselves.

I dont know if i should be happy or sad the way fellaini was used. He's a good target man ... but swansea were comfortable
against it and i dont think it would have got us anywhere. Playing that deep in midfield robs him of a lot of the benefits of
being a target man too imo.
I wanted to put a bet on a swansea midfielder scoring when he came on too as i just expect that
to happen when hes in midfield tbh. But i dont think it was his fault, honestly i dont know, i was listening on the radio and i presume
fletcher was the more defensive of the two. But if hes sitting in the opposition box waiting for a cross or whatever it makes it
fairly easy to bypass him if we lose the ball. It creates pressure on his midfield partner(s) to mop up behind him and none are
good enough to do that, especially when mata is one of them as its just not a strength of his.
I just think the whole cm target man idea is a terrible one and should be dropped immediately. If hes playing in midfield then play him
like a midfielder.

 

[MZX7]

How you can say that the two are not related is beyond me.

I said that our attack has not done its job, we struggle to break down any defence where the opponent puts men behind the ball.

You said that this isn't the fault of our attack as they need something to build from.

I point out that we had 65% possession and thus should have had plenty to build from. We have a supposedly world class #10 in Mata, and two strikers in front of him. Between the three of them, with support from the WBs and CMs, they should be able to create something, whereas we barely created a chance all game. Thus I say the attack is equally to blame as the defence.

Again, having possession does not and cannot necessarily transform into building up an attack. I'm not arguing that we have the best attack in the world but it is the area of our squad that LvG needs to be least worried about.

Also, in agreement with your point and extrapolating it further, you need to understand that a Number 10 can only be as effective as his support on either sides. We need quick moving Wingers and quick passing CBs, CMs who can draw in the opposition (like Herrera generally does). It's a total knock down effect from back to front. Especially in a 3-5-2. A slow movement of the ball in our side of the pitch will ensure that our number 10 is surrounded by opposition by the time the ball reaches him.

Anyway, hope you get the picture...No mood to argue about this...hopefully we'll get it right soon...LvG knows what he needs better than us I guess...

 

[Silverman]

Players we've lost since 2009:
van der Sar
Neville
Evra
Hargreaves
Ferdinand
Brown
Ronaldo
Saha
Berbatov
Giggs
Vidic
Scholes
O'Shea
Silvestre
Pogba
Tevez
And obviously SAF

Players we've bought since 2009:
Valencia
Owen
Obertan
Smalling
Hernandez
Bebe
Lindegaard
Jones
Young
De Gea
Kagawa
Powell
van Persie
Buttner
Zaha
Fellaini
Mata
Shaw
Herrera

With the obvious exception of RVP and De Gea, Shaw and Herrera are way too early to judge, that is one hell of a decline.

What else did you expect to happen?!

Very interesting to see. Things are just starting to progressively get worse and worse.

 

[Silverman]

We need:
An experienced CB: Ideally someone like Mats Hummels but that isn't likely this summer so I would possibly go for Ron Vlaar.
A second CB: Marcos Rojo would be a good addition.
A CDM: Bastian Schweinsteiger would be ideal but he is unrealistic. There aren't many top CDM's available.
CM: Arturo Vidal. No explanation necessary.
Winger: Angel Di Maria. No explanation necessary.

I also think we need to start Adnan Januzaj and in the current 3-5-2 it is unlikely.

There is no two ways about it. We need to spend or I just can't see us coming anywhere near the top 4.

 

[arthurka]

First open chance in the 95th min.. That for me was the biggest bugger for me.. Painful to watch...

 

[MZX7]

Players we've lost since 2009:
van der Sar
Neville
Evra
Hargreaves
Ferdinand
Brown
Ronaldo
Saha
Berbatov
Giggs
Vidic
Scholes
O'Shea
Silvestre
Pogba
Tevez
And obviously SAF

Players we've bought since 2009:
Valencia
Owen
Obertan
Smalling
Hernandez
Bebe
Lindegaard
Jones
Young
De Gea
Kagawa
Powell
van Persie
Buttner
Zaha
Fellaini
Mata
Shaw
Herrera

With the obvious exception of RVP and De Gea, Shaw and Herrera are way too early to judge, that is one hell of a decline.

What else did you expect to happen?!

I think I'd add Mata in the same list as RvP and De Gea. Probably Kagawa too. Both are extremely intelligent No.10s. Maybe they haven't proved themselves yet but I strongly believe that one more great CM, one additional winger and one (or two) great CBs will result in a big upliftmeelnt in performances from these two No.10s.

In spite of this, I can see the glaring differences in talent drain vs talent addition.

 

[caid]

I think I'd add Mata in the same list as RvP and De Gea. Probably Kagawa too. Both are extremely intelligent No.10s. Maybe they haven't proved themselves yet but I strongly believe that one more great CM, one additional winger and one (or two) great CBs will result in a big upliftmeelnt in performances from these two No.10s.

In spite of this, I can see the glaring differences in talent drain vs talent addition.

Part of the problem is the youth too to be fair.
Quite a few players have a bit to prove this season like jones and others.

We haven't produced a great player in a long time possibly barring januzaj though.
I know you cant expect or rely on a class of '92 showing up but i still think our output
has been dissapointing for a club of our size, resources and history.
Maybe we've let it stagnate a bit and need to have a rethink.

Its early days for van gaal and its the kind of thing that wont be apparent for a while
but its something to be hopeful about looking forward.