I'd like to see this also.
So what is the actual issue then?
- Thread starter Pexbo
- Start date
What's stopping LVG playing Janujaz then? What about giving Wilson more chances? Maybe try Pereira? Also his insistence on playing 2 up top is causing a further imbalance in an already unbalanced side. I'm fully for backing LVG but some of the decisions he has made and refusals to drop certain players are killing us as much as any imbalance or lack of hunger we have.
Van Persie is injured so there's one 'problem' solved.
Personally I would just go back to basics Rooney up top and one of Mata or Fellaini behind him depending on whether we need subtlety or a battering ram.
Won't clearly isn't working is changing the team and the formation every week, it looks ugly right now to be fair.
And it's going to keep looking ugly until our forwards shape up. Or should I say if they shape up. Mata behind Rooney will look great if Rooney finds his form, if not it will look like everything else we've tried this season.
Yep, this has been one of the biggest problems. LVG has not made the difficult decisions when needed.
We basically have to bench or constantly shift players who are playing well, just to let the poor strikers play and be a great waste of space.
To be fair he's hardly lit the league up at Arsenal. He's scored 4 goals so far this season, that's hardly the return of a top class striker.
He can't just drop 4 players that we play 1m a week to, but hopefully we can move them on this summer
James Rodriquez was the biggest name around last summer, and Bale the year before, Neymar.... these are players with plenty to prove but also big names. Any of those players would have been a scalp. Pogba would be a scalp this year, but he's young and hungry. Varane. Let Ed has his scalps
In all honesty it wouldn't matter if we had Messi up top at the minute as he wouldn't get played in, the only consistency of selection we have had, has been in the forwards, everybody behind has been in and out of the team or shipped around in different positions asked to do different jobs and at all costs keep possession of the football. There's no individuality, the Di Maria who in his first outing was sensational, the best player in the team by a country mile has seemingly disappeared and lost his flair.
I am not just pulling this opinion out of my arse either I get regularly to the games and it's rife in discussion in and around the ground, the fact that Van Gaal seemingly can't get the best from these players after over 6 months in charge is worrying but nowhere near as worrying as the fact that he still hasn't worked out his best 11 players, worked out a formation to suit and just played it until the players have bonded.
There was of course room for ignoring this during the injury crisis but for me there is no excuse for all this faffing about currently, it was one of the major reasons I lost it with Moyes early on.
I do trust the manager to get this right though as we will get some match rhythm eventually but all the chopping and changing is disrupting it for now.
All went to Spain though, didn't they? Why would Varane leave Real, he might see coming to us as a step down after Real? Pogba can see Real sniffing round him. I would like him. We'll have to wait and see.
If Messi was up front we'd have the title wrapped up by now, lets not forget how good he is.
Good forwards don't need "playing in" when the ball gets into their area they dance, bulldoze or just end up with the ball in a goalscoring opportunity. Ours can't even score when they are played in.
Good forwards don't need "playing in" when the ball gets into their area they dance, bulldoze or just end up with the ball in a goalscoring opportunity. Ours can't even score when they are played in.
Not being smart but why can't he? People said he had a reputation for not caring about star players. Now he has pandered to them all season at the cost to our team. Our own number 11 is as talented a kid as you will see but out manager won't use him. Whose fault is this? Also it's not dropping 4 players because Mata doesn't play anymore and Falcao isn't even our player.
Rooney used to be able to create goals out of nothing. Now they all want it putting on a plate and as you say they will still trip over said plate.
I've been saying for a while that the issue isn't formations.
Simply put, our play is far too slow.
Teams find slow possession football easy to defend against in this league. Unless you have Xavi, Iniesta and Messi who can thread the eye of a needle with a pass more often than not you'll struggle to break the shit sides down because they'll simply put 10 men behind the ball and stay organized. It's why our most disappointing results have been away from home against the shit teams.
Simply put, our play is far too slow.
Teams find slow possession football easy to defend against in this league. Unless you have Xavi, Iniesta and Messi who can thread the eye of a needle with a pass more often than not you'll struggle to break the shit sides down because they'll simply put 10 men behind the ball and stay organized. It's why our most disappointing results have been away from home against the shit teams.
LVG seems to laid back, the team needs a firm kick up the ass to get them going, if he donsn'the do it we could finish out side the top 4 and he could be out of a job
For me the formation yesterday was the problem
If you are playing a 4-4-2 diamond system then you are needing very good attacking full-backs
Shaw isn't that so far, McNair will always be a defensive right-back (like Jones and Smalling) and Valencia's attacking play is average too
If you are playing a 4-4-2 diamond system then you are needing very good attacking full-backs
Shaw isn't that so far, McNair will always be a defensive right-back (like Jones and Smalling) and Valencia's attacking play is average too
Well it doesn't matter if you think that he can drop them, what matters is that he won't, but hopefully he will ship them out come summer
I don't know why any of them would come to us but if Ed wants a scalp there are players who would improve us, be a scalp and also not be a 29 year old slow striker
@Pexbo OP
We started with 2 strikers in the diamond, but van Gaal felt we were too open so we switched to 3-5-2. Then he decided Rooney can play in midfield and we reverted back to the diamond. We even tried Di Maria up front with van Persie.
Every single decision van Gaal has made this season regarding formations spins around accommodating two strikers.
In my opinion this is the thing that holds us back the most. It’s affecting everything in this team. If you play two strikers they have to be either quick and able to dribble past defender, or they have to form a partnership. Our strikers don’t work together, Rooney seems able to form a partnership but not with a slow player.
I think that we are open in the diamond because Herrera and Di Maria are half midfielders/half wingers, so when we attack they push high up the pitch because our attacking trio is not able to create anything on their own:
- Midfield of Blind, Di Maria and Herrera
- Attacking trio of van Persie/Falcao/Rooney/Mata/Fellaini
The front three is incapable of creating anything on their own. Mata is creative only when surrounded by pacy players, Fellaini is world class at bringing the ball down with his chest but average at best at everything else, RvP and Falcao won’t do anything on their own. Rooney can play well at the tip or as a striker, so he’s not the problem.
Basically, we ask our midfield to create and defend at the same time- we have 3 players (or 2 at best) whose only job apparently is to score. This is as unbalanced as it gets, no other team in top leagues plays that way. Let’s be honest, RvP/Falcao wouldn’t start most games as lone #9 for any top team, yet we play BOTH of them regularly. What’s bizarre is that it seems LvG understands that, yet he continues to make such decisions.
As I said in another thread, I can understand that Falcao was given time to prove himself, I hope we’ve already dropped this experiment though. I think van Gaal’s trust in RvP might get him sacked eventually (if we don’t get top 4 that is). It feels like we’re playing with 10 men when van Persie plays.
I think Ash_G made some excellent points in his post regarding 2 strikers:
We started with 2 strikers in the diamond, but van Gaal felt we were too open so we switched to 3-5-2. Then he decided Rooney can play in midfield and we reverted back to the diamond. We even tried Di Maria up front with van Persie.
Every single decision van Gaal has made this season regarding formations spins around accommodating two strikers.
In my opinion this is the thing that holds us back the most. It’s affecting everything in this team. If you play two strikers they have to be either quick and able to dribble past defender, or they have to form a partnership. Our strikers don’t work together, Rooney seems able to form a partnership but not with a slow player.
I think that we are open in the diamond because Herrera and Di Maria are half midfielders/half wingers, so when we attack they push high up the pitch because our attacking trio is not able to create anything on their own:
- Midfield of Blind, Di Maria and Herrera
- Attacking trio of van Persie/Falcao/Rooney/Mata/Fellaini
The front three is incapable of creating anything on their own. Mata is creative only when surrounded by pacy players, Fellaini is world class at bringing the ball down with his chest but average at best at everything else, RvP and Falcao won’t do anything on their own. Rooney can play well at the tip or as a striker, so he’s not the problem.
Basically, we ask our midfield to create and defend at the same time- we have 3 players (or 2 at best) whose only job apparently is to score. This is as unbalanced as it gets, no other team in top leagues plays that way. Let’s be honest, RvP/Falcao wouldn’t start most games as lone #9 for any top team, yet we play BOTH of them regularly. What’s bizarre is that it seems LvG understands that, yet he continues to make such decisions.
As I said in another thread, I can understand that Falcao was given time to prove himself, I hope we’ve already dropped this experiment though. I think van Gaal’s trust in RvP might get him sacked eventually (if we don’t get top 4 that is). It feels like we’re playing with 10 men when van Persie plays.
I think Ash_G made some excellent points in his post regarding 2 strikers:
I agree 100%.
Last edited:
As long as it isn't Ed choosing the scalp. We are doubting LvG's decision but at least he has a footballing background.
Helps us none at this point though does it, the transfer window is closed and we have the forwards we have for the rest of this season.
Wayne Rooney is our top scorer despite a month faffing about in midfield, Van Persie is 2nd with 10 and then it's Mata with 8 (despite a spell on the bench).
The answers are there for me but even if we do play them it wont make much difference if we continue changing everything about each week, I would love to just blame the forwards and have done with it but they are nothing to do with our lacklustre build up play, if it was being pinged about and fired into the forwards with great regularity and they were just missing the chances then fine, but that's simply not the case here.
Why would he ship them out this summer if he won't drop them? If he can't drop them because of outside pressure then he isn't fit for the job.
Small correction:
Van Persie is our top scorer with 10 league goals. 0 goals in FA Cup, 0 goals in League cup. 26 games in total.
Rooney has 8 league goals and 1 FA cup goal. 0 League Cup goals, 9 in total this season. 25 games in total.
Mata has 5 league goals and 1 FA cup goal. 0 League Cup goals, 6 in total this season. 23 games played. All according to ESPN.com
I agree with the rest you posted.
i don't understand why fans are yelling
he played rooney upfront
he played herrera and adm in midifield
did they not fans cry for months to see? so now you've got all what you wanted
what's the problem?
he played rooney upfront
he played herrera and adm in midifield
did they not fans cry for months to see? so now you've got all what you wanted
what's the problem?
Something is the problem as we're looking dreadful. Also I dont like a manager who changes a team and tactics basing on what fans want even if it sounds obvious. We all thought 4-4-2 diamond is the answer, as well as Rooney up front and Herrera starting. But it seems problems are a bit bigger.
This x100. Our defence is shocking and the decent defensive record is not a true reflection of the quality of our back 4.
Evans, Jones and Smalling have all been average, at best, this season. Evans looks like he has won a competition to play a game for United at times.
Rojo has been good and done ok at LB when asked, but our 1st choice LB, Shaw, has looked pretty average considering the huge outlay.
Our RB position in a joke considering the size of the club.
Good teams are built from the back and ours need some major building in the CB and RB area - at the very least.
I still think Rooney and Wilson up top would be good enough to get us through the season but LvG seems to think RvP is the man - sadly, he no longer is.
The 352 for how dreadful we looked was getting us results, then crap began circulating in the media and our away support tried to manage from the stands when we played at QPR, calling for a return to Fergie 442. We look more effective attacking-wise in the diamond but maybe there's a valid reason why LVG decided to put us under lockdown for 90 minutes?
I'm going to sound like a broken record but once we get an improved backline, our overall play will improve considerably. At the moment, only Rojo, Shaw, and Rafael (when he plays) have any competence with the ball. Smalling and Jones, for how much I've liked them, are incredibly poor in playing out from the back. Valencia is better but he is not a natural RB and Evans is finished as a defender with us. For all of this season, we've been treating the ball like a landmine and it will take a true replacement for Rio and Vidic to solve this.
We are playing this tumescent shit because we look ready to be scored against every time the opposition comes forward on a counterattack. We leave truckloads of space in the back and the backs can't handle any kind of movement between runners when other teams play fast. This is actually more noticeable when we play 442 because we press forward and it gives the other side plenty of chances to break through.
All true but its not just defense fault we look shaky. Mdifield is the first row of defense and Blind looks exposed there time and time again, he needs to cover lots of space all by himself.
But our defense isnt great, yeah, they seem to panic when attacked and are poor with the ball at their feet. But we have a lot of other problems, like build up play, attacking play ( which isnt help by playing 2 CFs every game) and overall too static way of playing.
That's the problem, yes Blind is needing to do a lot of work on his own, so he should have signed a partner for him, Carrick is picking up too many injuries now, We need to score goals not just keep them out, the AM's are going to try and do their job. If Carrick is back soon that might help him, but when they were playing together our play was very slow. Herrera/ADM want to attack, so make sure they can do it by not leaving Blind on his own. Scoring goals wins games. Not conceding will just make a 0-0 draw.
I think the 'issue' is mainly Van Gaal, though it wouldn't be fair to blame everything on him but he should be doing a better job with the money spent.
So we have 2 problems at least. One is we're not scoring enough and we're not creating chances. Other is Blind is left in the open too much. If ADM attacks Herrera shold stay behind and vice versa. I know it sounds so easy and it isnt but if it isnt so easy maybe we should buy a proper partner for Blind in the midfield. I dont know, its all a big mess right now.
Although I agree that our lack of movement and tempo is the main problem, I also think that playing the right formation could mitigate most of those issues. The diamond and the 3-5-2 both promote crowding in certain parts of the pitch and a lack of bodies in others. Going to a basic 4-4-1-1 would spread the players around in an almost foolproof way.
I think too much onus is currently being put on individuals to adapt to the system in a single leap. The right formation could do half the work for them. The great thing about a 4-4-1-1 is that every player has a 'partner' in his area of the pitch. It makes teamwork and movement much less of a risk.
The best LvG can do at this stage of the season is to give the team the tools to figure out its problems on its own.
I think too much onus is currently being put on individuals to adapt to the system in a single leap. The right formation could do half the work for them. The great thing about a 4-4-1-1 is that every player has a 'partner' in his area of the pitch. It makes teamwork and movement much less of a risk.
The best LvG can do at this stage of the season is to give the team the tools to figure out its problems on its own.
League yes, but in all competitions I think my stats are correct.
They are pretty shit stats though lets be honest.
nice 4-2-3-1 could do a trick.
Shaw---Rojo--Smalling---Valencia
-----------Blind---Herrera
Young--------Mata--------ADM
--------------Rooney
Shaw---Rojo--Smalling---Valencia
-----------Blind---Herrera
Young--------Mata--------ADM
--------------Rooney
I think when Carrick is fit he might be fine, if he isn't going to be then he needs a partner. Problem is of course, some games we shouldn't need two midfielders sitting in front of the defence, if we had a decent defence our course. Have a commanding defence and it might not be such a risk having other teams attacking us.So we have 2 problems at least. One is we're not scoring enough and we're not creating chances. Other is Blind is left in the open too much. If ADM attacks Herrera shold stay behind and vice versa. I know it sounds so easy and it isnt but if it isnt so easy maybe we should buy a proper partner for Blind in the midfield. I dont know, its all a big mess right now.
Some of the problem is that Herrera and ADM are both expected to give us width, support the full backs defensively and support Blind. It's easy to catch us on the break when you get one pass through us. Couple this with the fact that we have 2 strikers pushed far forward and Fellaini's position is much closer to the strikers than it is to being in the 10 position. FWIW I think Herrera is pretty decent defensively (better than Fellaini, Ando, Clev, Giggs etc.) but the problem is we are asking them to cover too much ground while asking them to be our main playmakers too (Fellaini can't perform this role from 10 position). If we want to shore ourselves up defensively until the end of the season then a return to wingers while dropping a striker makes perfect sense. This frees up Herrera to play a more typical central role beside Blind and gives extra passing options for our defenders. We have won the League before with much defensively weaker midfields and aging defenders in our teams.
I know the forum had gone mad thinking we know what's best but the only thing that LVG hasn't tried yet is playing a one striker system. A system that our players are most used to (even when we had Rooney and RVP up top Wayne was always more of a 10 than an out and out striker). It's surely worth a go, it's not like we can get much worse both from an offensive and defensive viewpoint.
All this talk of formations, tactics, players, managers and all the rest.
I honestly think you could sum up what is wrong in a very simple phrase: Lack of intensity.
Everything about our play is weak, slow and lacking urgency.
I honestly think you could sum up what is wrong in a very simple phrase: Lack of intensity.
Everything about our play is weak, slow and lacking urgency.
Basically something like this. There is nothing to lose from trying it and it allows us to drop our most out of form players.
Well said.
I have to keep battering the same point, it has nothing to do with formation, its got nothing to do with players, it's a lack of continuity/rhythm that's killing us.
Your side there is pretty much spot on, we should just play it and play and play it until it fecking clicks...and it will, it has to much quality in there not to, but I would probably switch the fullbacks and CB's