The All-time Auction Draft

Chesterlestreet

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Probably the four best defenders were sweepers/liberos, the full backs are crap but you can't replace them with a LM and a RM unless you play Lerby/Ljungberg and Brolin in those roles which is ugly.
:lol: Yeah - see above.

There it is. I actually think a combo of Bratseth and, say, Berg - would be better, realistically, than having Olsen there. Or, for that matter, team up Olsen with one of the stouter feckers who operated at the back for Denmark back in the day. Busk, say. But Busk wasn't any better than Berg or Ronny Johnsen - quite the contrary even.

Play Brathseth and Ronny J - and you have speed in spades, plus two naturally very gifted defenders. I'd maybe go with that, all things said and done.

And to avoid the unsightliness of Lerby at LB one might force Sivebaek - or Bergmark - to go left for the time being.
 

Annahnomoss

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:lol: Yeah - see above.

There it is. I actually think a combo of Bratseth and, say, Berg - would be better, realistically, than having Olsen there. Or, for that matter, team up Olsen with one of the stouter feckers who operated at the back for Denmark back in the day. Busk, say. But Busk wasn't any better than Berg or Ronny Johnsen - quite the contrary even.

Play Brathseth and Ronny J - and you have speed in spades, plus two naturally very gifted defenders. I'd maybe go with that, all things said and done.

And to avoid the unsightliness of Lerby at LB one might force Sivebaek - or Bergmark - to go left for the time being.
I've attempted a realistic Scandinavian XI plenty of times but every time I rage quit. Seriously not worth attempting, it turns in to either using players who doesn't deserve to be in the team at all or that you go "feck it" and you shoehorn all the players in and convince yourself that it'd work.

I've decided that it is best to just pick the best players and save yourself the headache.
 

Chesterlestreet

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I've attempted a realistic Scandinavian XI plenty of times but every time I rage quit. Seriously not worth attempting, it turns in to either using players who doesn't deserve to be in the team at all or that you go "feck it" and you shoehorn all the players in and convince yourself that it'd work.

I've decided that it is best to just pick the best players and save yourself the headache.
Heh, yes - probably true.

Still...let's say you go with Lerby as a left midfielder - who frequently moves inside when the opponent is on the ball, to help out Liedholm. Then you use Sivebaek as a right wingback. And then you sport three men at the back. A sweeper - or rather, a libero - and two CBs, both United players of more than decent standard.

Drop Simonsen, who isn't a proper winger (I agree). Play the legendary Praest, who I forgot all about - on the left. Hamrin on the right and Nordahl in the middle. And Laudrup in a free AM role behind Nordahl.


That's a team of sorts, I think. Unconventional, but loaded with brilliant players in familiar roles.
 

Annahnomoss

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Heh, yes - probably true.

Still...let's say you go with Lerby as a left midfielder - who frequently moves inside when the opponent is on the ball, to help out Liedholm. Then you use Sivebaek as a right wingback. And then you sport three men at the back. A sweeper - or rather, a libero - and two CBs, both United players of more than decent standard.

Drop Simonsen, who isn't a proper winger (I agree). Play the legendary Praest, who I forgot all about - on the left. Hamrin on the right and Nordahl in the middle. And Laudrup in a free AM role behind Nordahl.


That's a team of sorts, I think. Unconventional, but loaded with brilliant players in familiar roles.
Doesn't look too bad. :) Maybe a 3-2-2-3 with Lerby/Molby as defensive midfielders could work well too. Kick out Sivebaek for Molby. Personally I would have Olsen in there but Bratseth was great too.
 

antohan

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Matthäus in a diamond with Pirlo and Kopa? Really? Can't think of a worse way of using Matthäus.
Well, yeah, I did tell him I couldn't see him fitting Andrade AND best using Matthaus. That said, I completely ignored Kopa. I thought he had picked him later.

I was thinking

----- DLP
Andrade-Matthaus
------Didi

I don't fancy Lothar in a diamond though, not his best use at all. Andradeon the right of a diamond is the sort of midfield role he could be really effective in.
 

Šjor Bepo

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Im not sure whats the 3 year peak of one player, can i ask it here? :nervous:
 

Skizzo

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Erico too, and Sarosi without a Euro restrictions is a rich man's Charles - world class as a forward, defender AND midfielder - what a tactical option

Netzer too, he really was something. Lots and lots and lots (and to think about some names that were picked before them :nervous:)
Really thought about going with Netzer again, since I didn't do a good enough job selling him last time. Thought one of the resident German's would take up that mantle though and give him the platform he deserves. He really was some player.
 

Annahnomoss

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Latest team (green = done bidding)

1. Berbasloth4 1.
Terry (10m) 2. Tigana (20m) 3. Zidane (50m) 4. Aguero (10m) 5. Stoichkov (20m) 6. Bonner (10m)7. Stam (32m) 8. D. Edwards (30m) 9. Cole (10m) 10. Irwin (10m) 11.Donadoni (10m) 12. Koeman (20m) 13.Peruzzi (10m) 14. Hierro (15m) 15. Larsson (10m)

2. Stobzilla 1. Blanchflower (10m) 2. V.Andrade (10m) 3. Jose Santamaria (10m) 4. Da Guia (10m) 5. J. Johnstone (10m) 6. Veron (10m) 7. Gento (30m) 8. Matthews (30m) 9. Masopust (10m)10. Coluna (10m) 11. Scifo (10m) 12.Ceulemans (10m) 13. D.Dean (10m) 14. Camacho (25m) 15. Chilavert(10m) 16. Lorenzo(10m) 17. Hatzi Panagis(10m

3. MDFC 1. Ferrara (12m) 2. Banks (16m) 3. Maradona (84m) 4. Carlos Alberto (32m) 5. Neeskens (48m) 6. Vierchowod (12m) 7. Boniek (24m) 8. Stielike (10m) 9. Seeler (22m) 10. Briegel (17m) 11 Finney(10m) 12. Ardiles(10m)

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5. Cal? 1. Schmeichel (14m) 2. C. Ronaldo (52m) 3. Xavi (18m) 4. Lahm (18m) 5. Dani Alves (20m) 6. Shevchenko (10m) 7. Vidic (18m) 8. Messi (72m) 9. Ferdinand (27m) 10. Robben (22m)11. Schweinsteiger (12m) 12. Makelele (14m)

6. Raees 1. Yashin (15m) 2. Kohler (28m) 3. Puskas (49m) 4. Didi (52m) 5. L. Matthäus (54m) 6. Cafu (38m)7.J.Andrade (10m) 8. Schnellinger (19m) 9. Meazza (14m) 10. Kopa (10m) 11.Vasovic (11m)

7. EAP 1. Kahn (10m) 2. Sammer (28m) 3. Seedorf (10m) 4. Djalma Santos (38m) 5. Rivelino (22m) 6. Forster (10m)7.Burgnich (18m) 8. Jairzinho (34m) 9. Charlton (39m) 10. Vieri (10m) 11. Junior (18m) 12. Schuster (10m) 13.Lizarazu (20m) 14. Kocsis(10m)

8. Marty1968 (295m budget) - 1. R. Carlos (30m) 2. Cannavaro (24m) 3. Zoff (16m) 4. Passarella (38m) 5. Iniesta (34m) 6. Ribery (10m) 7. Figo (38m) 8. Deschamps (10m) 9. Giggs (17m)10. Baggio (12m) 11. Raul (10m) 12. Zanetti (34m) 13. Van Nistelrooy (12m) 14. Ballack (10m)

9. Green_Smiley 1. Charles (20m) 2. Janes (10m) 3. Gerson (20m) 4. Shilton (10m) 5. Di Stefano (55m) 6. Moore (45m) 7. Rijkaard (60m) 8. Littbarski (15m) 9. Brehme (30m) 10. Džajić (15m) 11. Klinsmann (15m)

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11. Joga Bonito 1. Varela (25m) 2. Scirea (35m) 3. Dasaev (10m) 4. Nilton Santos (38m) 5. J Cruyff (52m) 6. Keane (35m) 7. Nasazzi (10m) 8. Conti (10m) 9. Law (26m) 10. Bossis (17m) 11.Rivaldo(36m)

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16. Aldo 1. Facchetti (40m) 2. Maier (10m) 3. Ronaldo (70m) 4. Nesta (31m) 5. Gentile (10m) 6. Pele (81m) 7. Bozsik (10m) 8. Monti (10m) 9. McGrath (10m) 10. Socrates (18m) 11. Kubala (10m)
 

Chesterlestreet

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Personally I would have Olsen in there but Bratseth was great too.
Did you pay particular attention to Bratseth back in the day (I've never actually bother to inquire how old you are), out of interest? I mean, Norway was a, well, a bit of a story back in '94: All of a sudden they became horrible to play against, having been pretty much whipping boys for any decent team who were grouped with 'em for either the Euros or the World Cup.

They appeared in USA in '94, defensively rock solid – more than commonly so. Stingy as all hell, made a mare of it for anyone they faced – and that was proper teams too: Italy, Mexico and Ireland. Norway should've been...nothing. But they weren't. They were incredibly hard to play against.

And Bratseth was at the centre of that defence. I never really noticed him until then, naturally enough, beyond registering that he played for one of the best teams in Germany. And, of course, registering with a (then) mixture of...I don't know, bitterness, I suppose, and schadenfreude, that Norway knocked out England from participating in USA '94.

But I did notice him at that World Cup. Hell of a burst on him, even then – when he was probably past his very prime. And clearly a leader on the pitch – all that. Plus, he moved like a proper defender – which is something I always like to see. You know, that tact true defensive readers of the game have – knowing where you need to be in order to hamper the opponent most efficiently.

I noticed this trait against Italy, of all teams – otherwise not known for sporting shabby defenders, nor did they in '94.

Never really thought much about him since – but this Scandinavian idea got me looking a bit closer into the matter. Bratseth is actually considered the greatest Norwegian player ever by some, it seems.

Won the Bundesliga twice for Bremen – and the old Cup Winners' Cup in '92, the year after United won it against Barca.

@Balu is no spring chicken, I reckon. I'd be interested to know what he remembers of Bratseth from back in the day.
 
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Chesterlestreet

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I hate to say it, but there's something off there.

I understand now, what you were on about regarding Andrade and the set-up.

That said, THAT very formation/illustration is not what I would go for. Do some thinking there - you can present it differently both visually and verbally, as it were.
 

ChrisG11

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Awesome! Also wanted to ask you how you wanted to approach having Assistant's and managers posting in the thread. Obviously trying not to gang up on you, but wondered if you mind if we both have posts in there, or if you rather us gather our thoughts elsewhere in PM's and stick to just one of us in the match thread. Wanted to ask you now so there's no confusion later :)

@Annahnomoss can you pencil our game in for monday please? If you're done with the rest of the draw by then :p
Post away mate, if my argument is convincing enough it shouldn't matter who posts; I certainly won't be using that as an excuse if you go through anyway.
 

Chesterlestreet

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@Raees For my money, you play Andrade as the designated DM. Field Didi alongside him as a CM with license to orchestrate. Lothar plays as an AM of sorts – but still an AM who can do more than a shift defensively. Not a box-to-boxer as most would interpret it, but still – he runs back and forth a bit. He won't mind that.

Puskas leads the line – he's the best alternative for that role. Flanking him, as inside forwards (in the old sense, really, which both of em were very comfortable with) you have Kopa (a bit deeper, more of an AM role) and Meazza (further forward, more of a supporting striker).

Width issues? You have Schnellinger and Cafu, for the love of booze.

It's an offensive, aggresive set-up – but it features players of a truly immense quality. Arguably not in every case in their optimal roles. But not in unfamiliar or awkward roles either.

Like so, or thereabouts:



That team would twat the universe. Problem is that they might conceivably come up against another team who could twat the universe even more.

But lose that magic diamond idea - or whatever it is. That's a no-go, in my opinion.
 

Chesterlestreet

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Square - not diamond. Magic square. Lose it.

A magic diamond, on the other hand - a really magic diamond, that might be something.
 

Raees

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I hate to say it, but there's something off there.

I understand now, what you were on about regarding Andrade and the set-up.

That said, THAT very formation/illustration is not what I would go for. Do some thinking there - you can present it differently both visually and verbally, as it were.
 
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Chesterlestreet

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Much better. But I would actually swap Didi and Lothar.

Lothar can run up and down in that role – as the, call it what you will, designated AM role. Didi can't do that to the same extent. Lothar is better than Didi in a purely, physical defensive sense: He can both track, feck up and tackle players to a different degree.

So, if that is what you actually want – then fine. If you want him to target something specific. But as per default, in that XI, I'd rather have Didi as a pseudo DM of sorts – because he is more natural in that deeper space. He can work his magic from there easily – and Lothar offers something far more potent when, as an AM, he can involve himself, directly, in the attack. And he'll still contribute defensively from that position – he will always do that if you task him with it.

That's the almost satanic beauty of Matthäus: You can even use him as a man-marker. He goes beyond most descriptions and is, in all probability, the best “midfielder” (defined as a player who mainly plays in the middle of the park and who might make himself useful in all sorts of tasks in that area) we have ever seen.
 

antohan

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Sorry mate, but it's precisely the arrow to the centre I have a fundamental problem with. He wasn't a holding midfielder. Outside halfbacks were either the same as fullbacks when they had no attacking game or more like modern wingbacks/wide midfielders when they did (a diamond would really suit them actually). The difference in roles is significant.

Think about it, the oppo also played five forwards:

------------Inside Right--------------Inside left
Outside right------------Centreforward-----------Outside left

vs

-----Left-half----------Centre-half----------Right-half
--------------Fullback--------------Fullback

Now, the fullbacks will naturally pick the centreforward and you want one spare for cover. The left-half's detail clearly is the right winger and the right-half's the left winger, while keeping an eye on the space between CF and Outside R/L, which was bound to be attacked by the Inside Forwards. When the play is on the opposite wing they will tuck in and be more mindful of the inside forward than the winger (typically somewhere in between to have time to react either way). That's almost to a T what a fullbacks' defensive job is today.

Now the centrehalf is a completely different player and more akin to the modern DM type you are looking for. The cover requirements at the back mean he is technically outnumbered here: there's no No.10 man-marking mission like a Makelele would do but instead he has to pick up the inside forward closest to the action, keep the shape and if he gets the ball shepherd him into a cul-de-sac out wide or, even better, disposses him.

It's a completely different job, the space to cover, the positional awareness required, it's all completely different and you would know it from seeing the countless experimental midfield arrangements we've had over the last few years. Phil Jones anyone? He makes a decent fullback but is all over the shop when played as a central DM.

I do think Andrade had the requisite awareness, but he is completely unproven in the lone central role and in an all-time draft where anyone can be picked that's fecking criminal, particularly when the other two stellar midfielders clearly called for a holding one so they could have greater freedom to do all the damage. You didn't need Andrade's damage. If you want the best out of him you want him as a wide midfielder, but then you are paying a disservice to one or both of the others (which is where I disagree with @Chesterlestreet, as he says, Matthäus is a complete midfielder who can do almost anything so I'd rather sacrifice him a bit asking him to contribute defensively to release Didí from a duty he was notoriously averse to, Zito performed a level of heavy-lifting Andrade is unlikely to provide here).

Unless you got a horrendous draw, you should be fine anyway. It's not exactly a disaster, it just means getting a bit less than the sum of parts in what is a very strong unit anyway.
 

Physiocrat

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@antohan

With the change from the 2-3-5 to the W-M wasn't it the case that the full backs moved wide picking up the wingers, the centre-half the centre forward and the half-backs on the inside-forwards?

The half-backs description as wide-midfielders is probably the best modern approximation to their positions.
 

antohan

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@antohan Hang on...is this an Andrade confusion again?

Which Andrade does Raees actually have on his books?
José. Uruguay played pretty much the exact same formation with both Andrades though, the difference is a stylistic one in that Victor was more defensively focused (as opposed to Gambetta, whose name is today the common term for dodge in South America, i.e. gambetear = to dodge).
 

antohan

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@antohan

With the change from the 2-3-5 to the W-M wasn't it the case that the full backs moved wide picking up the wingers, the centre-half the centre forward and the half-backs on the inside-forwards?

The half-backs description as wide-midfielders is probably the best modern approximation to their positions.
But Uruguay didn't play a WM. Of course, once you have a WM fullbacks are fullbacks, centrebacks are centrebacks and half backs aren't too different from a modern midfield pair.

2-3-2-3 was a completely different cup of tea though, thus the usual confusion with the terms fullback, centrehalf, and their translations to today's positions.