@Summit now that you are here, atleast vote.
All Time Premier League Fantasy Draft: SF - MJJ/Crappy vs diarm
- Thread starter green_smiley
- Start date
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
But that is not how he is set up? He has not instructed his defense to run towards the ball like mad men leaving spaces all over, rather they are instructed to stay compact, disciplined and on the contrary, not leave any spaces rather than creating them. All of the defenders in the setup are well suited to that tactic and have the required quality as well as style of defending to make that work to perfection. Whichever route you are trying to attack from will face loads of roadblocks, and both Beckham and Bale would be contributing a lot in terms of containing your wingers. I have shown my immense love for Overmars, but here his primary strengths are restricted. He's not someone like Figo who will hug the touchline to draw out a fullback and then pick out a small pocket of space with a great cross, rather and given he's right footed, here he's gonna be running into the crowded area and not exactly stretching it as you say. He's one of the best for a team playing on the counter or against defenders who are not a cohesive unit and likely to leave him in many 1v1s or with a lot of space behind, but none of that is the case here. In the end I don't see his CBs having to move a great deal away from their area and your main goal threat which they are marking even if they need to cover someone, given how the space is minimized in that area and every defender is pretty close to each other while defending.
Someone said diarm should have upgraded Le Tissier with Lampard. Arguments over pedigrees ensued when the bottomline is that if you think Lampard is a better option you clearly don't understand diarm's tactics.
Grates me quite a bit as well, but there's no questioning Rio would be a better match for Bergkamp.
They'll create a few chances sure, but less than Bale, Le Tiss and Van Persie will against your defence. I've a much better keeper as well.
Where do they overlap into? Overlapping fullbacks are effective when they're getting in behind a defensive line with lots of space to run at goal or cross. There's hardly any space behind mine!
And what do they do once they have overlapped? Cross the ball in for Bergkamp and Fowler to win aerial duels against Terry and Rio? I'll take that all day.
i thought we are only looking at EPL
Since he moved to Madrid he uped his game, specially his passing and because of the different tactics he started to use his final pass more. He did had a lot of good qualities but final ball wasnt one of them back then. He was a possession player, fantastic technical ability and fantastic in tight spaces, if you want to use him for retaining possession and holding up the ball while others go up the pitch a little thats great, you also need that but lets not make Fabregas out of him in terms of creativity in passing.Exactly. Modric at Madrid > Modric at Spurs. Heck before he went to Madrid, many of here were not even sure that he was worth going for. His level at Spurs was not the same as his peak at Madrid over last 2 seasons.i thought we are only looking at EPL
How deep are your defenders playing here?
So not only do you just have modric in midfield, there is a huge gap between your defense, midfield and attack which modric alone is bridging? I cant believe how anyone is buying this.
But Terry never played LCB while Rio spent a fair bit of time on both sides. I preferred not to risk giving Terry a new positions and besides, according to our formations, Rio is matched with Bergkamp here.
I'm sorry but that's wrong again. His final ball at Spurs was excellent although he didn't necessairly have the finishers he has in my side or at Madrid to make best use of it. I'm not sure why you're trying to push things that simply aren't true so hard?i thought we are only looking at EPL
This is revisionism at it's finest ladies and gentlemen. Every one of us would have given our eye teeth for him to come here instead of Madrid and you well know it.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/modric-vs-sneijder-vs-nasri-a-muppet-poll.334604/
Not quite true as crappy just pointed out. For those who cant be bothered clicking the link:-
Modric 35%
Sneijder 34.2%
Nasri 30%
Eye Teeth indeed.
No it is not. I am talking about the caf and there was no general consensus on here if he was worth paying 30m or so or not.
Regardless you have sidestepped the central argument that this is simply not a PEAK modric here. Even a peak one, is inferior to Scholes so we are talking about an even worse version of that here.
I am off until Mjj drops to bed.. gonna force myself through True detective finale 
My word I can't keep asking you to refer to my formation. It literally couldn't be clearer and you've got to stop pretending it's something it's not.How deep are your defenders playing here?
So not only do you just have modric in midfield, there is a huge gap between your defense, midfield and attack which modric alone is bridging? I cant believe how anyone is buying this.
It goes:
Keeper
Defence
Batty
Modric Beckham
Bale Le Tissier
Van Persie
Yours goes either:
Keeper
Defence
Midfield
Bergkamp
Fowler
Or it goes:
Keeper
Defence
Midfield
Bergkamp
Fowler
Can you not see how my formation has closed down space where you can hurt me while yours has left it open?
My problem with your formation is this. Your defense is playing so deep that there is no space for our fullbacks to overlap. Batty is sitting in front of the defense. Modric is in the middle while beckham is out wide and helping when he can right. At the same time helping jones against overmars and attacking. Le Tissier is hanging in the space between our defense and midfield.
-Bale-------Le tissier---------
--------Modric-------Beckham-
----------Batty--------------
-Cole-Ferdinand-Terry-Jones
This is how you are lining up right? And you think thats good enough against keane, scholes,bergkamp and ginola? Not to mention yoru fullbacks cant overlap since they are so deep! Your attackers are isolated as by the time the rest of the team joins up the move would have broken down.
Surely those numbers dropped after he opted to Madrid? That is simply staggering if not.
I'll be interested to see what 3 or 4 of the big Modric fans who voted for you earlier have to say when they come back in the morning and see the hatchet job that's been done on him here.
Nobody is suggesting he is Scholes, or Fabregas or anyone but himself, as he was. At Spurs.
And for this role, he doesn't need to be any of those. he just needs to be himself, as he was, with the ability he had. At Spurs. It's a fantastic role for him.
The thread was started on July 5th so no I dont think the madrid transfer had an effect on it, sjor is also croation to the best of my knowledge so you would expect him to be a huge modric fan too. If even he is telling you he wasnt that good at spurs, its time to accept you are wrong.
And the so called hatchet job is no where near the image of le tissier which you are projecting here or beckham who is running the wings and fighting a midfield battle against keane,scholes simultaneously.
My word you really aren't getting this? You have watched football and watched this system work. You've watched us do something not dissimilar to Arsenal on multiple occasions.
I have literally drawn out my formation, drawn it out again to show defensive positioning, drawn it out a third time to show attacking movment and then again to show the path of the ball to find these attackers.
And still you come up with that lineup above, displaying a clear lack of understanding as to how it will work? Surely that in itself is an indicator as to how this match will go?
I have yet to see a defensive line so deep that there is no space for the opposing fullbacks to overlap in. please point me to a match in which this has happened.
Beckham and Le Tissier are Premier League legends. Le Tissier did the things he did for Southampton. Not United, Arsenal or Liverpool but Southampton.
You have some Legends as well in Keane, Scholes and McGrath and I haven't gone after them to try and paint some illusion that they were worse than they really were.
You forgot bergkamp
We are not claiming that either of them is going to single handedly turn the match like you are here or playing scholes alone in midfield either again like you are with modric.
I didn't say there would be no space to overlap into, I said there wouldn't be much space and asked what you were overlapping into?
I asked what you would do with that overlap to hurt me?
By my grasp of the english language that means almost none which means they are playing extremely deep.
Bergkamp is beyond reproach. I've mentioned how good he is 5 or 6 times already in this match.You forgot bergkamp
We are not claiming that either of them is going to single handedly turn the match like you are here or playing scholes alone in midfield either again like you are with modric.
Again you continue to put words in my mouth. Where have I said a single player is going to turn the match?
I have consistently pointed to our system. Our defensive discipline and our counter attack strategy with 3 key outlets.
It is your team that keep pointing to your individuals.
But you can see exactly how deep they are from my defensive positioning? Or are you continuing to ignore that?
The way the match has gone, it has seemed that way. Your early momentum was all built on le tissier being free in space till I pointed out his record against united's 4-4-2.
How can I see how deep they are by a defensive positioning on a team sheet? Can you see how high keane/scholes are playing based on ours image? Or how beckham is helping in midfield in yours?
Oh my god we are going in circles. Please explain to me what relevance his record against United's 442 has when there is one player on your team who played against him in that 442?
Are you suggesting that Le Tissier never scored against teams playing 442? Because I can assure you I can prove that wrong.
It was relevant because an image was being painted that unless you have a dedicated DM to mark him he is unstoppable.
You really need to start reading my posts. "you can see exactly how deep they are from my defensive positioning".
That is not my team sheet, it is the positions we will occupy when we don't have the ball which I have posted at least twice.
And on a huge number of occasions he was. Maybe not always when he was faced with the quality of Bruce, Pallister and Schmeichel in front of him but then he isn't faced with that quality today.
The issue isn't that Le Tissier himself is unstoppable against 442. It is that my system is.
Without the DM, I can play it inbetween defence and midfield to Le Tissier where he has space, or if you close that space, I can lift it over your defenders to van Persie.
Southampton never had that option because Dowie and Maskell weren't Van Persie.
As such, good defensive lines led by the likes of Bruce and Pallister could push up, closing Le Tissiers space without being threatened by the ball over the top.
Without the DM, I can play it inbetween defence and midfield to Le Tissier where he has space, or if you close that space, I can lift it over your defenders to van Persie.
Southampton never had that option because Dowie and Maskell weren't Van Persie.
As such, good defensive lines led by the likes of Bruce and Pallister could push up, closing Le Tissiers space without being threatened by the ball over the top.
well, i think you are wrong...i watched him almost every game for Spurs so im not talking out of my ass and i dont have any reason to bullshit. Watched the whole clip now and it just profs my point as final passes and balls over the top are almost non existent. The majority of passes are to the wing and thats how he played back then, short simple passes and diagonals to the wing. There are 3 final passes in the whole clip(1:32, 2:00 and 2:36), there are probably around 3 goals in the whole clip, was he also a goalscorer?
This one? So they are pretty much camped in your box. We have pearce,mcgrath, southgate marking your two attacks and ivanovic dealing with bale. I really dont see an open attacking route for you here.Wow. I don't know what to say any more. People are just making arguments without any relevance to the player they are referring to.
There have been precious few who would be better at this role than he. Fortunately we have one of those very few in David Beckham!
Earlier in the thread I showed the shape of our side in defence, I also showed the areas we will move into when we regain possession. I even showed the areas in which Modric and Beckham will look to launch these attacks from.
You are also sporting a midfield two of beckham and modric against keane and scholes ffs. That too with beckham playing as a winger half the time.
They also werent relying on modric and a winger to play midfield against two of the premier leagues finest. Thats not unstoppable by a huge margin. Your defenders are so deep that by the time they join the attack it would be too late as we would have numbrs back.
Do you see the picture beside it? That illustrates the attacking routes that you say you can't see. There are 3 of them.
Beckham was regularly deployed in a similar role when we weren't in possession and was very effective there. You know as well as I do that Beckham was never a regular hug the line winger.
This defensive setup restricts space for you to play your football in our half. It takes a lot of the edge off your pacier attackers and it means our 2 best passers are close to the action for when we do win back the ball and they can distribute quickly to our counter attackers.
Beckham was regularly deployed in a similar role when we weren't in possession and was very effective there. You know as well as I do that Beckham was never a regular hug the line winger.
This defensive setup restricts space for you to play your football in our half. It takes a lot of the edge off your pacier attackers and it means our 2 best passers are close to the action for when we do win back the ball and they can distribute quickly to our counter attackers.
At the end there's not a big difference in both teams' chances to score here, diarm has a better functioning setup with clear routes to goal as in all his previous matches while cramjj are relying more on individual brilliance. Slight edge to diarm in the overall picture for having a better tactical setup to negate a lot of his opponent's strengths while the same preparation cannot be seen from the opponent.
And in a tight game such as this, you get credit for picking Beckham. It is well setup for a vintage Beckham special and I fancy his chances against Shay Given.
And in a tight game such as this, you get credit for picking Beckham. It is well setup for a vintage Beckham special and I fancy his chances against Shay Given.
But there won't be a midfield battle. We have no interest in passing around the football in the middle of the park.
We win it back. We get it to Modric or Beckham quickly (and every one of my players is technically capable of passing a football quickly and accurately over short distances) and they then opt for option 1, 2 or 3. Or a flank if a break is on.
Keane and Scholes are great midfielders but both Beckham and Modric are excellent at finding space and getting their passes away.
Am off to sleep now, not sure if I will be online tomorrow.
@crappycraperson wanna take over?
@diarm good game mate, had fun arguing with you. Pretty impressive the way you came back in the game after the initial setbacks. Best of luck for the next round if we do lose.
@crappycraperson wanna take over?
@diarm good game mate, had fun arguing with you. Pretty impressive the way you came back in the game after the initial setbacks. Best of luck for the next round if we do lose.
I think I'm going to head to sleep as well. Brilliant game mate and with a vote in it there's plenty of twists left. Really enjoyed the debate and will continue for a while tomorrow hopefully!