The "Zlatan hinders our gameplay" brigade

[MadMike]

As stated above. Zlatan made this type of run last year. He still would do when we are so obviously in transition.

Zlatan's movement was undoubtedly good, but was not relying on speed. He would usually be close to a defender then give him a nudge before moving in the other direction.

I rarely recall Zlatan making a run with speed on the counter. He might have attempted that run Lukaku made for the 1st goal, but he never would have made it to the ball.

 

[Dave46]

Zlatan is too slow for the current team. If he is willing to back Lukaku, fine, but he should not be a starter at 9 or 10 positions.

 

[ivaldo]

Lukaku's pace will benefit us a lot more than Zlatan's build up play from how deep he used to drop. There was times last season when Zlatan would drop to midfield and no one would be in the final third to receive a pass. Like you mentioned, we have enough players that can create and look to pass that a true CF that stays in the box will benefit greatly.

Thats the point. Lukaku is the better fit.

Well that's your opinion. Lukaku is a better dribbler, has more speed, has better movement and is also way more clinical.

Yeah that is my opinion.

And Zlatan has the better touch, technique, passing ability, is more agile, more intelligent and has much better vision. Generally those traits are more highly valued than physicality when discussing who is the better player. But to us, in this formation with these players, Lukakus athleticism is more important.

 

[#07]

We were 24 points off Chelsea....

Turn 12 draws into wins.

 

[ivaldo]

The vast majority will disagree with you and for good reason. Zlatan simply doesn't have the physical presence anymore to stretch defenses. He is (and likely always will be) better at build up play and linking others but that's a very small portion of what is required from a United level/world class striker.

The chances Zlatan missed versus the chances Lukaku takes should be enough to see how he is a superior upgrade to Zlatan.

No they won't. You ask the average supporter who is the better player Zlatan or Lukaku the 'vast majority' aint going to say Lukaku.

Theres no likely about it. Those aspects of his game are no less significant than Lukakus ability to make runs in behind. If we played with a second striker or had a player like Aguero then Zlatan would be a much better fit. But we dont so hes not. It all depends on how a team plays and what players they have in the team.

 

[Shark]

No they won't. You ask the average supporter who is the better player Zlatan or Lukaku the 'vast majority' aint going to say Lukaku.

Theres no likely about it. Those aspects of his game are no less significant than Lukakus ability to make runs in behind. If we played with a second striker or had a player like Aguero then Zlatan would be a much better fit. But we dont so hes not. It all depends on how a team plays and what players they have in the team.

They won't, but then again Zlatan has a pretty legendary reputation at this point. At both of their respective ages though, and comparing them purely as strikers, I see Lukaku as an already established striker(at 24) coming into his prime, and a very mighty prime at that, and Zlatan as one that's clinging onto every last drop of his talent and determination to still produce, but doesn't have that edge to fire a PL team to the title. Lukaku looks like a striker that truly will run through brick walls for Mourinho.

 

[MadMike]

No they won't. You ask the average supporter who is the better player Zlatan or Lukaku the 'vast majority' aint going to say Lukaku.

Theres no likely about it. Those aspects of his game are no less significant than Lukakus ability to make runs in behind. If we played with a second striker or had a player like Aguero then Zlatan would be a much better fit. But we dont so hes not. It all depends on how a team plays and what players they have in the team.

I always find these debates about who the 'better player' is a little bit pointless.

For a start, it depends on the observer's skillset preference. The kind of thing that excites him more to watch. Secondly, when comparing players of different generations you have the legacy factor. Zlatan is 11 years older and has built a legacy that Lukaku hasn't. So when people are comparing Zlatan to Lukaku their respective reputations weigh on their opinion. Also they are probably (subconsciously) not comparing Lukaku to current Zlatan, but peak Zlatan.

Ultimately it doesn't really matter. What matters is the fit to the team. Mourinho likes playing counter attacking football and Lukaku will suit that better with his pace. If Lukaku finishes the season with 30 goals, does it really matter if Ibra is better or not?

 

[ivaldo]

I always find these debates about who the 'better player' is a little bit pointless.

For a start, it depends on the observer's skillset preference. The kind of thing that excites him more to watch. Secondly, when comparing players of different generations you have the legacy factor. Zlatan is 11 years older and has built a legacy that Lukaku hasn't. So when people are comparing Zlatan to Lukaku their respective reputations weigh on their opinion. Also they are probably (subconsciously) not comparing Lukaku to current Zlatan, but peak Zlatan.

Ultimately it doesn't really matter. What matters is the fit to the team. Mourinho likes playing counter attacking football and Lukaku will suit that better with his pace. If Lukaku finishes the season with 30 goals, does it really matter if Ibra is better or not?

Quite possibly, but whether they are subconsciously comparing Zlatan of 5 years ago or not, the claim the vast majority would disagree with my sentiments is nonsense.

Correct.

What matters is who is better for the team and the manager. Despite thinking Zlatan is still the better player, i beleive Lukaku is the better fit. It's not really a major debate, as it seems largely unanimous that we believe Lukaku is the player to take us forward.

I also think many are putting too much emphasis on what happened last season and as such are underestimating the ability Zlatan still has. Whether we have Lukaku or Ibra playing upfront, this season will prove to be significantly better.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

Zlatan is too slow for the current team. If he is willing to back Lukaku, fine, but he should not be a starter at 9 or 10 positions.

Could do well at home against smaller sides with both, but in big games it would just not give enough defensive protection .

 

[shamans]

Quite possibly, but whether they are subconsciously comparing Zlatan of 5 years ago or not, the claim the vast majority would disagree with my sentiments is nonsense.

Correct.

What matters is who is better for the team and the manager. Despite thinking Zlatan is still the better player, i beleive Lukaku is the better fit. It's not really a major debate, as it seems largely unanimous that we believe Lukaku is the player to take us forward.

I also think many are putting too much emphasis on what happened last season and as such are underestimating the ability Zlatan still has. Whether we have Lukaku or Ibra playing upfront, this season will prove to be significantly better.

Why don't you start a poll then? If you want I will. I stand by my statement that the vast majority will consider Lukaku to be a better player than current (or last season's) Zlatan.

 

[liamp]

Turn 12 draws into wins.

 

[11101]

Ibra was constantly making the runs that Lukaku made for the first goal. Would he have scored.....questionable. He missed plenty of those sorts of chances while getting in good positions.

He was making the runs but would he have been quick enough to get on to it ahead of the defence? Doubtful, and it's likely he would have been further back anyway getting involved in the midfield as he liked to do.

It doesn't really matter if Lukaku/Zlatan aren't the best or most mobile in our build up play if they are in the channels on the shoulder of the last man or backing into the defender to hold the ball up. It is a problem when they are dropping into the midfield to pick the ball up though, and that's where Zlatan hindered our play.

 

[Striker10]

With renewed pace and energy around him, we'll be very strong. Even though he misses too many chances for someone of his stature, he still scored 25+ goals last season. If we can maintain our confidence then it should be a good season. Zlatan last season played in a team where Rashford was growing and Martial was struggling. Pogba was finding himself and all eyes were mostly on Zlatan. This season will be different and we should do well in the CL. I think but you need luck also. Last season we could have been strong but Martial and Rooney were disappointing. Martial is looking more like his old self and Lukaku is playing well. I seem to remember some mocking us for buying him but if we can improve him even by 5% he's a great option. Zlatan wasn't immobile as such but now it looks like we've more control then we did and I think teams will be moving slowly back because suddenly we've pace. Now we have two players who really could get 25 goals each and others have goals in them which is good

 

[ivaldo]

Why don't you start a poll then? If you want I will. I stand by my statement that the vast majority will consider Lukaku to be a better player than current (or last season's) Zlatan.

Knock yourself out.

 

[#07]

Based on performances we should've won:

1. Stoke (H)
2. Burnley (H)
3. Arsenal (H)
4. Everton (A)
5. Hull (H)
6. Bournemouth (H)
7. West Brom (H)
8. Everton (H)
9. Swansea (H)

We didn't win those games because we failed to convert our chances or we gave away daft goals, last minute penalties, last minute equalisers etc.

So you're looking at converting three other bad results into wins.

Considering we lost at Watford, drew at Stoke and drew at Southampton, is that really a laughable idea?

 

[RedTillI'mDead]

Based on performances we should've won:

1. Stoke (H)
2. Burnley (H)
3. Arsenal (H)
4. Everton (A)
5. Hull (H)
6. Bournemouth (H)
7. West Brom (H)
8. Everton (H)
9. Swansea (H)

We didn't win those games because we failed to convert our chances or we gave away daft goals, last minute penalties, last minute equalisers etc.

So you're looking at converting three other bad results into wins.

Considering we lost at Watford, drew at Stoke and drew at Southampton, is that really a laughable idea?

You talk sense, but one season to another it'll be different teams causing different results. Thus the point comes down to consistency. It's a problem most of the top teams have had in the last few years. City are a prime example, perform in big games, lack consistency in smaller games.

The question thus becomes have we changed/ developed enough to find that consistency. 12 games is almost a 3rd of the season. That's a lot of extra consistency.

I think we are most of the way there and Chelsea shooting themselves in the foot over Costa and arguably Matic is maybe the other half. So I think we are close. I do think we may be one or two players from changing close to well in contention.

 

[roonster09]

Not sure why you are laughing, we dropped too many points at home missing so many chances, so it's not something impossible to convert those draws into wins, if not every draw at least more draws.

 

[prtk0811]

Zlatan would not be able to score the goals which lukaku scored against city in preseason and against West ham.

Yes he definitely hinders the game play as the focal point because of his inability to run in behind and stretch teams, although he individually is a phenomenal player at what he does.

 

[Adisa]

Personally, don't see Zlatan starting. Especially if we're playing well when he regains fitness.

 

[Hawks2008]

Zlatan has always been one of my favourites but if he returns he's gotta be behind Rom.

 

[Dobbs]

Do we have to classify people who have an opinion on a footballer as a "brigade" or "clan."

 

[balaks]

Do we have to classify people who have an opinion on a footballer as a "brigade" or "clan."

Only if you disagree with them.

 

[Dobbs]

Only if you disagree with them.

Seems that way. Does nothing for debate.

 

[OldTrevil]

We have enough playmakers and creative ball players to occupy the middle and need a striker to stretch the game and create space, that's why Lukaku is a better fit for this group. Zlatan will be a good plan B though, and you could even play him at 10 behind Lukaku against some teams that park the bus.

 

[Tiber]

He was a great player. Now he is 35 (36 very soon) with a serious knee injury.

He may end up coming back as a rotational option upfront, but his days as an every game starter at the highest level are done and thankfully we have (should have done it a year earlier in my opinion) found a long term option instead.

 

[Borys]

We have enough playmakers and creative ball players to occupy the middle and need a striker to stretch the game and create space, that's why Lukaku is a better fit for this group. Zlatan will be a good plan B though, and you could even play him at 10 behind Lukaku against some teams that park the bus.

Just came to write the same. We have good players in the middle of the park who can keep the ball and create chances, so as long as we continue this good form (might be a bit of exaggeration as we're one game into serious season), Ibra won't be missed so much.
Lukaku gives much more space for Mkhi and Pogba to operate and his movement is great. His game seems to be very simple but effective. I also thought Ibra coming deep was creating a bit of confusion in the team and didn't really work that well. Only concern is how good is Romelu hold up play, but we need more games to see.

 

[HisDudeness]

The team needed youth and energy. Simple as that.

 

[sammsky1]

Why don't you start a poll then? If you want I will. I stand by my statement that the vast majority will consider Lukaku to be a better player than current (or last season's) Zlatan.

I agree with you. Last seasons Zlatan had many defiencies that were not highlighted because we were so grateful to have him!

 

[sammsky1]

He was a great player. Now he is 35 (36 very soon) with a serious knee injury.

He may end up coming back as a rotational option upfront, but his days as an every game starter at the highest level are done and thankfully we have (should have done it a year earlier in my opinion) found a long term option instead.

He should only be re hired with that understanding imo

 

[HisDudeness]

You don't judge a movie based on 1 actor, the main actor can be decent but the overall movie can be poor. It is clear that they player better with youth and energy. Lukaku is better for the team. The difference is obvious to see.

Edit: Now they could go out and draw or lose to Sawnsea City, it's football, but still... the team is shaped much better with youth and energy.

 

[el3mel]

Zlatan for Mourinho this season will be like Drogba in Jose's last title winning season, a backup for the main striker who get his share of games when the main striker isn't available and will do the job. He'll be useful for the games when we need to push with 2 strikers at the end of it searching for a goal.

Jose will hardly play both at the same time as this isn't his favored system and he's definitely not going to play Zlatan as a number 10 ( it won't succeed ). I don't think Mourinho has any problems benching any player. He didn't bench Zlatan last season because he was our best striker and no other player got the ability to hold the ball as well as Zlatan in the team, but the manager who benched the club's legend and captain can bench anyone really.

Zlatan will be a great addition from the bench and also a big assist to us in the congested parts of the season that will come later. Lukaku won't play the whole 55-60 matches of the season you know.

 

[Marcky411]

Firstly saying Zlatan hinders our play is madness and comparing Zlatan to Lukaku is comparing apples with oranges, they are both strikers and that is where the comparisons stop. Lukaka is speed and power and has had a great start but like any striker will miss chances as well (e.g. Real Madrid game). Zlatan has the technique and strength and a true footballing brain, was never a rocket for pace even in his younger days. He is a true leader of men and can really lead the line even at moments that aren't going for him still he has the confidence in his own ability. If it wasn't for Zlatan we would've crumbled last season in the league cup final, he is really a player for the big occasions.
Lukaku has still a lot to learn and can really benefit from him can't wait to see them play together, a defense's nightmare.

 

[The red panther]

Firstly saying Zlatan hinders our play is madness and comparing Zlatan to Lukaku is comparing apples with oranges, they are both strikers and that is where the comparisons stop. Lukaka is speed and power and has had a great start but like any striker will miss chances as well (e.g. Real Madrid game). Zlatan has the technique and strength and a true footballing brain, was never a rocket for pace even in his younger days. He is a true leader of men and can really lead the line even at moments that aren't going for him still he has the confidence in his own ability. If it wasn't for Zlatan we would've crumbled last season in the league cup final, he is really a player for the big occasions.
Lukaku has still a lot to learn and can really benefit from him can't wait to see them play together, a defense's nightmare.

He seems sharper in front of goal than Zlatan

The thing that bugged me to no end last year about Zlatan was that he missed a shitload of big chances, double the amount of any other strikers in the league. You talk about him being a striker for the big occasions but beside the league cup final he was missing in our biggest occasions of the season and we did just fine without him. We won the EL and our best PL performance (the win versus Chelsea was without him in the squad), so it seems we are absolutley fine without him in the big moments. Secondly our season was a failure not because we missed out on the big occassions but because we weren't consitent in the small occassions, the smaller games every week where we just kept drawing instead of winning. Zlatan didn't have the goals in him to secure us those win's every week when we needed it, alltough 1 goal would usually have made the difference between 1 point or 3.

Lukaku looks like the type of striker that will get his goals week in week out versus the smaller teams, grind out results and that is how you win the league or atleast manage to finish in the top 4. He has more energy and more pace which just lifts our attacking play. Zlatan would never be able to make those runs Lukaku did against WHU and it is those that break down most defences in the league and that is what we need upfront.

I would rather not see Zlatan back on the pitch because I just know he will start slowing things down again. It is the same reason why I absolutley don't want to see Carrick in the midfield anymore either and why I'am so glad Rooney is gone. We need players with energy and pace to quicken up our game. And upfront we need a striker that scores his goals week in week out to grind out results. Give me Lukaku over Zlatan any time of the day on that one.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

The Zlatan is god brigade always take critiscim or just someone explains why he was a hinderance as blasphemy and they all get their shackles up and never actually listen.

I doubt you'll find anyone saying he isn't a great player. What most will be saying is that he was the wrong fit for the team and the other elements we had in it. He just wasn't suited to get the best out of the other players we had and he wouldn't make the selfless runs to create space for the others that you see Lukaku doing now.

 

[Nytram Shakes]

Personally, don't see Zlatan starting. Especially if we're playing well when he regains fitness.

i can't see him coming here and sitting on the bench, and if he does i can't see him taking it very well and it not causing disruption to the dressing room.

 

[montpelier]

or is there more to it?

Matic at DM maybe?

(ponders where to place WUM trophy on mantlepiece)

 

[2 man midfield]

Isn't there about 5 threads for this already?

 

[AN17]

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-zlatan-hinders-our-gameplay-brigade.429035/

 

[Dante]

Isn't there about 5 threads for this already?

6th time's the charm.

 

[Gbenger]

Poor Zlatan, would get blamed everytime things go well for us.