Catalonia referendum| Catalonia declares independence from Spain
- Thread starter barros
- Start date
Where is the informative note? proves please. That some politicians in Lleida they do not want to held the referendum is known because they say it in public. Everybody knows, and nobody to anything bad do them beside not voting them next elections, no shit
But you say like there is anonimous people in a list created like in the nazi times.
You are a very big manipulator
Of course they do. They are the most taxed region in EU and give more to Spain than get back from it. The problem is that Spain might get economically crippled without Catalonia and other regions might go for independence in a few years.
Saying that, I have sympathy with the Catalans here and Spain are making things worse. With a progressive dialogue they should have allowed a referendum and campaign hard against separation. With Yugoslavian tactics though, they are just postponing the inevitable. Catalonia will be free, there is no doubt about that IMO.
Well, it can be justified, but it seems quite exclusive and radical. Do not worry, at least Otegi supports you
@carvajal, where are you from? If i remember well, you are from Galicia, right?
quite normal being independentist. we share the same goals, they followed the wrong path. Means nothing
and all Francoist fascist defends Spanish state reaction, the same path and the same goals. That is more worrisom
I will find the note, but meanwhile another threat to a politician, yesterday.
Cañas, politician
PNV can share your goals, not Otegi or Eta.
Are you serious you are going to speak about threats? you think catalan politicians don´t receive them? I promise that puigdemont and junqueras receive hundreds of them more than him
If they want the independence is the same goal. the path was wrong. There is no discussion in that
There is quite a strong Galicia independence movement, right?
And by the way, the writting of that thread is in spanish, if it would be independentist would be in catalan, most probably was threatened but for another reason than independentism... Again manipulation
Nope
the dictator and some of the militars that started the Civil War were from Galicia, the founder of PP (ex francoist minister) was from there, and Rajoy is from there. Quite right winged and aligned with the central government
Not too much. We are proud of being Galician and spanish and able of living in the current situation.
Yes there is independentism but is residual. They had some protagonism in the 90's but not much from then
Come on...the threats=the catalan government also was threatened, the comunist sign to clean the country is justifiable, and now this is manipulation and Otegi=we share the same goal. Too much manipulation...
Having money doesn't equate with having a government though, layers of bureaucracy from the village to the city needs a solid foundation that can't be built in a couple of years, catalunya for all her wealth can be bankrupt pretty soon once they start functioning as an independent state. Imagine if they have to recruit thousands of people to fill up the spots overnight, it won't end well.
Ok, got it.
@carvajal @4bars
Not sure if legit.
The current escalation is the result of two different nationalistic identities clashing. Catalonia should have gotten a fair and free referendum. This one is hardly representative. Rajoy had the power to change course and is the main culprit for this mess. That doesn't make the Catalan groups who pushed this innocent so. At least parts of them are radicals who found a way to present themselves as moderates/victims, due to the pressure from Madrid.
Not sure if legit.
The current escalation is the result of two different nationalistic identities clashing. Catalonia should have gotten a fair and free referendum. This one is hardly representative. Rajoy had the power to change course and is the main culprit for this mess. That doesn't make the Catalan groups who pushed this innocent so. At least parts of them are radicals who found a way to present themselves as moderates/victims, due to the pressure from Madrid.
Clean the country of corrupts and the king? is not only justified but I REALLY WANT THAT to happen, by any means.
As I said yes, threats exist for both sides, I think you are smart enough to know that. Stupidity is in ALL sides, but the manipulation is because the thread is in spanish, not in catalan.
Otegi shares the same goal with the wrong path. Is like I want to get rid of my wife that's the goal, but you can divorce or you can kill her. One path is the correct, the other not so much
And yes, Too much manipulation, that's precisely the problem
Wasn't Gallego also outlawed by Franco? I still find it quite interesting that he was from there and the language was outlawed. Maybe too Portuguese for his tastes? Spain's a fascinating country in many ways.
Thanks for finding it. I meant that note@carvajal @4bars
Not sure if legit.
The current escalation is the result of two different nationalistic identities clashing. Catalonia should have gotten a fair and free referendum. This one is hardly representative. Rajoy had the power to change course and is the main culprit for this mess. That doesn't make the Catalan groups who pushed this innocent so. At least parts of them are radicals who found a way to present themselves as moderates/victims, due to the pressure from Madrid.
The situation is different in France because governments have done everything to eradicate regional cultures and they kind of succeeded. As a kid in the 90s, a good portion of the elders were only speaking occitan and they would describe themselves as occitan not french but that was mainly in villages and little towns, in Perpignan they will shamelessly tell you that they are a Catalan and only Catalan. In Corse the independentist are the first and now only political force.
We are very proud of our history with Portugal but it has nothing to do in the modern history of Galicia.In the past Spain(several times) bet for Cataluña to encourage the trade in the region and other regions were forgotten. I heard once that the industrial regions are the first looking for autonomy and independence. Perhaps the situation would be different if we were rich and Cataluña poor.
They will be fine. They already pay those people that you are mentioned.
@carvajal @4bars
Not sure if legit.
The current escalation is the result of two different nationalistic identities clashing. Catalonia should have gotten a fair and free referendum. This one is hardly representative. Rajoy had the power to change course and is the main culprit for this mess. That doesn't make the Catalan groups who pushed this innocent so. At least parts of them are radicals who found a way to present themselves as moderates/victims, due to the pressure from Madrid.
I don´t know if it is legit or not, I checked and there are others that differs on that, not a pamflet but through internet, and is not the first or second paper that was not recognized as real.
I agree with the nationalistic ideas clashing. I agree that not only 1 part has 100% blame, but catalonia has been always a negociator and PP is not and you know that. You know they are conservative and old fashioned way.
There is a obious problem and Rajoy only made it bigger. Being part of Spain, Europe, the world would be great, but you need to feel comfortable in it. And in Spain we do not feel we can fit in it, not with the current ideology and politics
Just one question - did Franco ever have a real connection with Galicia i.e. did he mention it, was he said to be proud of it, etc? Not trying to derail the thread, people, don't worry. Just really curious about this one thing.
Catalonia has the smallest % of public servants, we are quite efficent. the quantity that differs of what we give and we receive is calculated between 8 billions (spanish government) to 16 billions (catalan government). If we declare unilaterlly the independence because spain does not want to negociate, we would have 20% of debt, the lowest in europe. Don't worry, in business we are pretty crafty from hundreds of years. We are not wealthy because of oil, natural ressources or because we won the lottery. We will be fine
He used to come to Galicia on holidays but was very tough with the language and the autonomy of the region, however he installed electricity and infrastructure in many small villages. Besides after him we had Fraga(president of the region), minister of tourism with Franco.
Even now PP wins always easily, perhaps because PSOE/BNG introduced very poor candidated, and the structure of the party is very strong, something like PNV in Pais Vasco
Just like Mussolini with Agro Pontino in Lazio. This part of Italy is also very right-wing.
Thanks for the answer. I'm going to try and find more books about Spanish history to try and understand it better. I once read 'The Battle for Spain' and that was fascinating.
Spain never bet anything for Catalonia. if so, they protected the catalan economy form outside Spain protecting products about 150 years ago? from outside I say. But Franco for example, wanted to built the SEAT car factory in the south, b ut FIAT, the partner with the spanish government to start the spanish car manufacturer said, or catalonia or nothing, making sense, biggest port in mediterranian sea, close to france and europe and the biggest industry in the country (where it was mostly inexistant beside basc country).
Perhaps perhaps, but is not. And you heard....Quebec, Scotland and Norway were not the richest. nor South Sudan recently or New Osetia, or Slovenia (now yes, not before) and aa big etc...You heard wrong or what you heard was wrong
I have a friend from Ferrara who is a big fan of Mussolini. He used to imitate his speeches
, although I don´t know what relation has the city with himThe idea that the EU (as a European Super State) will deflate problems arising from the desire for independence within regions or groups within nation states is a spurious one, for whilst the EU may help to prevent conflicts between recognised countries, or nation states, paradoxically some of its treaty requirements and orthodoxies could give rise to cultural, economic, ethnicity and other differences within current state boundaries and exacerbate internal problems within such countries which leads to internal conflicts, even to succession.
National Boundaries disappear only to be replaced by regional/state ones, producing more complexity and potential for disruption or even armed insurrection.
Mussolini was born in Predappio, Emilia-Romagna. Ferrara is also in Emilia-Romagna. The Italian Social Movement (post-fascism) always held his party in Mirabello near Ferrara.I have a friend from Ferrara who is a big fan of Mussolini. He used to imitate his speeches