It might be miserable to watch but its just as likely to get us a result as going gung ho. Its more likely for a thousand reasons actually.
Jose Mourinho | 2017/18 Assessments | Poll Added
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I'd rather not get beaten 5 or 6 nil. Because that's what would happen if we experiment in a game like that. Maybe, just maybe, give it a crack if this radical new approach results in us smashing Brighton and Swansea. Even then, I'd prefer us to be pragmatic in the derby. Taking them on at their own game, with a week or two of preparation, would be suicide.
If a manager needs to have the perfect team in order to make a plan work against Sevilla then he is the problem and you don't want that manager in your club. I really doubt that he sees things that way.
He was sat in the dug out looking pretty calm till we conceded. He only jumped up and hung around the touchline after. We set up more or less the same in the second half, no real changes were made. Last night was going to plan for most of the tie i'd say.
disclaimer is that Van Gaal had Rooney as his only striker. This team would be on similar with Wayne breaking up every attack
Im not saying he needs to sell this lot and buy 11 new players. Im just saying, he wont change his entire managerial philosophy because we lost against Sevilla. As I said, he will think the system - his system - still works. It just wasnt implemented properly. Players had an off day, or he needs a couple of new defenders, or things are out of balance because of Sanchez settling in, or whatever. There are various possible scapegoats here. The last thing he is going to blame is himself, or by extension his tactics. Of all the many variables in a football game, that is the one thing that is pretty much infallible.
Alternatively, you could also argue that Van Gaal had been with us for one season already and should have known Rooney was not good enough and needed to recruit. He didn't. Either he didn't want us to sign a striker and was happy with our choices (therefore his fault) or he asked and was declined (clubs fault).
But you simply cannot compare imo the 2nd season of Van Gaal and 2nd season of Jose. We might not be happy with current form/performances, but we're still going to improve on last years finish in the PL, will have scored more and conceded roughly the same.
Van Gaal was the opposite, his 2nd season was far poorer than his 1st and significantly worse than this current season.
1 Games that defines the season.
Last season it was the Ajax game, wich made the season a succesfull one, despite a very poor league campaign.
This season it was the Sevilla game, wich made the season a failure, despite having for the first time a good league campaign since SAF left.This game showed us how small we are compared to the giants and Mou as one expired top manager.Beating Sevilla at home with a confy 2-0 and being eliminated to a giant team in the quarters while having a decent game, as well as finishing behind a strong Pep's City would have meant a decent season at least or max of what we could achieve if not luck involved.
Last season it was the Ajax game, wich made the season a succesfull one, despite a very poor league campaign.
This season it was the Sevilla game, wich made the season a failure, despite having for the first time a good league campaign since SAF left.This game showed us how small we are compared to the giants and Mou as one expired top manager.Beating Sevilla at home with a confy 2-0 and being eliminated to a giant team in the quarters while having a decent game, as well as finishing behind a strong Pep's City would have meant a decent season at least or max of what we could achieve if not luck involved.
And who's fault was that?
I hate it when i hear this
" we can not change the manager, we are not a small club keep changing the managers"
the answer to this hateful statement consist of two parts
First, you will never find a new Sir Alex, so stop trying to make from every manager a "Sir alex", waiting for years to see if they can succeed is money and time consuming. The world of football we live in now changed we need to change as well.
Second, If Mourinhou was coaching Real, Barca, Munich yesterday and got knocked out by fecking Seville, which one of these big clubs would keep him to the end of the season? The answer is 0, he will be sacked in the next morning, and they are the biggest clubs in the world. So kicking Mou now does not mean we are a small club mentality. Actually it means we are starting to act like a big club like Barca, Real and Munich.
" we can not change the manager, we are not a small club keep changing the managers"
the answer to this hateful statement consist of two parts
First, you will never find a new Sir Alex, so stop trying to make from every manager a "Sir alex", waiting for years to see if they can succeed is money and time consuming. The world of football we live in now changed we need to change as well.
Second, If Mourinhou was coaching Real, Barca, Munich yesterday and got knocked out by fecking Seville, which one of these big clubs would keep him to the end of the season? The answer is 0, he will be sacked in the next morning, and they are the biggest clubs in the world. So kicking Mou now does not mean we are a small club mentality. Actually it means we are starting to act like a big club like Barca, Real and Munich.
I'm simplifying things a bit but most of us must be considering that journey with him. To stick or twist?
Play it safe, stick with Jose and keep giving him money until he builds his own team. The best outcome being he can win us the league, in a pragmatic way. Worst outcome is a Chelsea 2016 meltdown.
Twist, bring in a Pochettino or even someone more extreme like Tuchel, watch him play beautiful attacking football, maybe leaky at the back, but hope we can give him enough money to make it work. Best outcome, win the league in style. Worst outcome, they have a deer in headlights, Moyes esque meltdown and we turn to shit and have to start all over again.
You and the other person are the missing the point. Of course Van Gaal was at fault.
The actual point is how were we NOT going to score more goals with the recruitment done since then. In other words, why do people bring this up (more goals scored) like Mourinho has achieved something sensational.
Miscast, in the past he got good results but he is not the manager a team like Man Utd. needs. Therefore he plays way too defensive. Man Utd. under Sir Ferguson was to score one more then the other team, Mourinhos strategy is to let the others score one less then us. There isn't a system to play attacking football. So for me Mourinho is way overrated as a manager.
Alexis isn't playing well but is he the problem, some players who have already proved something like De Bruyne, Salah, Alexis, Hazard didn't perform when they were managed by José. I expect way more Man Utd. is not all about winning but it is about winning in style and if you fail you go out with you heads up. Now we don't win and we feel ashamed.
Alexis isn't playing well but is he the problem, some players who have already proved something like De Bruyne, Salah, Alexis, Hazard didn't perform when they were managed by José. I expect way more Man Utd. is not all about winning but it is about winning in style and if you fail you go out with you heads up. Now we don't win and we feel ashamed.
I understand that but isn't the manager supposed to implement his philosophy and aren't top managers considered elite because they have the ability to implement it with great efficiency? No manager has a perfect group of player, they all have two things to do, teach their philosophy and tweak it in order to make some players fit in it.
For me what you are describing is a bad manager.
I think what you don't seem to acknowledge is the impact that season had on our players. We were devoid of confidence and ideas in van Gaals final season and I imagine it played on a lot of players' minds. League wise, last season, we only managed 54 goals so I'd say there definitely was on going issue, not just from 15/16 but dating back to the Moyes era.
Yeah I get that, but if not now, when?
Surely a one-off match with no real ramifications is the perfect time to change tack.
I doubt Lukaku would score more than what Wayne Rooney did during van Gaal's tenure. Rooney scored 29 league goals under van Gaal, just a tad behind the scoring average that Lukaku is delivering in the league for us this season if he can keep it up. Lukaku's not even matching Rooney's first season in terms of goals on average, 17 goals in 29 games.
I don’t think he’s “afraid of losing”. The way he sets teams out to play is simply his philosophy, it’s how he sees the game.
Agree with the general point here. Loyalty becomes a negative trait when it's taken too far.
But equally there's no point canning Mou if we can't get someone better, and there are few candidates available. The coaching staff are all his acolytes so nothing would really change if he left now.
I reckon we need to give him the summer, and see if he can take us further next year. That'd also give us more time to identify a suitable replacement, and for the next cab off the rank to emerge.
I can't help but feel that coming to United when he did was the worst possible thing that could have happened to his development as a coach. He desperately needs to evolve his attacking tactics but he was never likely to be able to move on from his opposition to modern football whilst locked in a head to head battle with a club with money to burn who are modelling themselves after Barcelona, especially one like ours where expectations are always sky high. Instead it has just encouraged all his worst instincts towards conservatism and "pragmatism". If he had instead taken a job in, say, one of the top non-Bayern German clubs he could perhaps have taken the opportunity to revise his approach somewhat out of the spotlight. Granted it would have been a bolder move but as it is he seems locked in a kind of death embrace with his neutralising, anti-football style. It seems to me like he may be smart enough to adapt in the right environment but the current situation at United instead encourages his tendency to be too arrogant to change.
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I still think Mourinho is a very effective manager but the football is mostly awful and I do think a more possession based 4-3-3 with a manager willing to play Sanchez on the right makes the most sense for us going forward based on our personnel. Matic isn't getting any quicker or Pogba any smarter defensively and we need the ball as a result.
-------Lukaku------- (Sanchez, Rashford, Martial)
Martial-----Sanchez (Rashford, Lingard, Mata)
---Pogba--CM------ (Herrera, Pereira,)
------Matic---------- (Herrera)
LB----------Valencia (Shaw, Young, Fosu-Mensah)
---CB----Bailly------ (Rojo, Lindelof, Jones, Tuanzebe)
------De Gea-------- (Romero)
I just don't believe that a normal summer for us spending around 150M on a proper attacking LB, a #8 who can pass, move and tackle and an LCB who can pass and carry the ball and a manager prioritizing possession and attacking play would have us significantly worse than we are now, even if it took a good chunk of the season for the players to adjust.
Not sure who the manager or those players should be exactly, but those are hardly impossible moves for us to make.
-------Lukaku------- (Sanchez, Rashford, Martial)
Martial-----Sanchez (Rashford, Lingard, Mata)
---Pogba--CM------ (Herrera, Pereira,)
------Matic---------- (Herrera)
LB----------Valencia (Shaw, Young, Fosu-Mensah)
---CB----Bailly------ (Rojo, Lindelof, Jones, Tuanzebe)
------De Gea-------- (Romero)
I just don't believe that a normal summer for us spending around 150M on a proper attacking LB, a #8 who can pass, move and tackle and an LCB who can pass and carry the ball and a manager prioritizing possession and attacking play would have us significantly worse than we are now, even if it took a good chunk of the season for the players to adjust.
Not sure who the manager or those players should be exactly, but those are hardly impossible moves for us to make.
I really don't think we'd lose 5 or 6-0. If we're going to lose by that scoreline if we so much as dare to leave our bunker, the team is clearly a complete shambles and Mou should go now.
Besides I'm not talking about going all Ossie Ardiles and playing with five forwards. I'm just talking about a clever, progressive game plan which we can take forward into next season. And we've got two and a half weeks to work on the plan, which is surely enough time.
Yeah, that's one way of looking at it but you could just as easily say that he has developed that philosophy as a way of rationalising his (arguably ever-increasing) instinct to shut down the game out of fear of losing.
After that commend he had yesterday he deserved to be fired on the spot. On the spot. He basically has no soul/emotional attachment to Manchester United. It's just a job to him and he gloats about his previous job success against Manchester United. F this guy. F him.
Great post.
The perfect role for him now would be Valencia. No real expectations, money to spend and his close mates Lim and Mendes in charge. He could have developed them away from the spotlight and turned them into another Porto.
He definitely isn't. We were CL contendors under LVG too. He's been brought in to win the big trophies. I'd give him another year but that's his objective.
He definitely isn't. We were CL contendors under LVG too. He's been brought in to win the big trophies. I'd give him another year but that's his objective.
I am comparing the attack and how if fares compare to our rivals. There is little difference in the creativity of the attacks in the 2 teams despite Van Gaal making us pass sideways the whole match. Of course I prefer Jose's but we haven't created nearly enough opportunities and that reminds me of Van Gaal.
The results might improve slightly with better players but the football won't
People talk about attack and cohesion improving under him but I can't see how.
As a manager, he has no principles, especially attacking ones.
His entire ethos revolves around stopping the opponent.
So what you get is tactics and a way of playing that are constantly changing.
What I can't stomach is his refusal to play football against any above average playing side.
It's cowardice.
People talk about attack and cohesion improving under him but I can't see how.
As a manager, he has no principles, especially attacking ones.
His entire ethos revolves around stopping the opponent.
So what you get is tactics and a way of playing that are constantly changing.
What I can't stomach is his refusal to play football against any above average playing side.
It's cowardice.
For me what I am describing is an extremely stubborn, arrogant manager. Whether he is good or bad depends on results, not his willingness to take blame.
Right now, judged on results, he is a good manager. Not great, not elite - not in the here and now. He is only elite if you look back on his entire career. That is certainly great. But as time goes on he looks more and more like he is past his peak. He didnt used to lose games like that last night. He away record against the top teams used to be better too.
I am loathe to write him off entirely. But neither do I expect him to change. I posted a comment earlier, after reading an article about last night by Barney Ronay, inspired by something he said. It was along the lines of, Mourinho's defensive style used to be about pragmatism, but it has become a dogma. He is so closely associated with playing that way that he cannot bring himself to abandon it, to evolve with the times. Also, Ronay suggested (and this I cannot comment on really as I have no way to verify or refute it) it is his intense dislike of Barca that drives him, he is adamant he will win playing the antithesis of the Barca Way. Hence, he will never change.
As I said, I cant comment on the extent to which he is motivated by his hatred of Barca. But I do believe his defensive style is a dogma.
A comment I have made a number of times over the last couple of years: a lot of brilliant managers come and go. Some of them burn even brighter than SAF for a short period of time. Mourinho was one of them. For a period his achievements surpassed even SAF's and it looked like if he kept it up he would win more trophies than he did. What is much rarer is a manager that can operate at the kind of level SAF did for as long as he did. SAF's real genius, what really sets him apart, is not the fact he delivered a Treble to United, or won 3 back to back PLs, or whatever. It is that he operated at that very high level, a level only a few managers have been able to reach, but stayed there for 20+ years. What is hard about it is that it requires not just a mastery of a particular football philosophy, but an ability to adapt as quickly as the game evolves. The game changed a lot between the late 80s when SAF took over and the 10s when he quit, but he kept up with it.
My concern with Mourinho was always that we were betting on him having that same quality. He had been at the top for a long time, starting at Porto, through his achievements in England, Italy and Spain. The idea he would still be at the top, the best manager around, after all the time, assumed he had longevity akin to SAF's. And there just arent that many examples of managers who have been at the very top for such a long time. Many become wedded to a certain way of doing things that deliver them success at a particular point in time, but they do not necessarily have the separate quality of being able to adapt.
I dont think Mourinho can adapt.
The more I type the more I realise I am talking myself into thinking we are better off without him. But as I said in another post, I am more concerned about what comes after. I dont think we will win the PL or CL under Mourinho. But I think he will keep us in the top 4 and stable. I think we need to be thinking very carefully about what comes next at this point. We shouldnt rush into anything, but Woodward should be working on this. I would give Mourinho next season but with a view to it being his last, unless next season pans out very differently (much better) than I expect.
@Adebesi without wanting to quote the beautiful wall of text, great post.
He got RVP, Falcao, Chicharito at one point. We let them go after can't find way to utilize them. Then we have Rashford Martial. Still somehow ended up with weird thing like Nick Powell sub in desperate moment or subbed Rashford off to play Young as central forward against Tottenham when keeping Martial on the wing.
Even Depay can be considered as wing forward. Guess what? The first experiment with him is to play him as second forward. Even Di Maria had game as second forward too under LVG for no logical reason.
It's reaching to suggest LVG didn't have the options.
2 years has gone by and you lot have forgotten how awful we were. Look at the gap between us and Everton. Then look at how Sunderland were 1 goal away from having the same goal scored as us. Yes. Sunderland.
Goals For Van Gaal 15/16:
- Manchester City - 71
- Tottenham Hotspur - 69
- Leicester City - 68
- Arsenal FC - 65
- West Ham United - 65
- Liverpool FC - 63
- Southampton FC - 59
- Chelsea FC - 59
- Everton FC - 59
- Manchester United - 49
- Sunderland AFC - 48
- AFC Bournemouth - 45
- Newcastle United - 44
- Swansea City - 42
- Stoke City - 41
- Watford FC - 40
- Crystal Palace - 39
- Norwich City - 39
- West Bromwich Albion - 34
- Aston Villa - 27
Goals For Jose 17/18:
- Manchester City - 85
- Liverpool FC - 68
- Tottenham Hotspur - 59
- Manchester United - 58
- Arsenal FC - 55
- Chelsea FC - 52
- Leicester City - 45
- Watford FC - 39
- West Ham United - 36
- Everton FC - 35
- AFC Bournemouth - 35
- Newcastle United - 30
- Southampton FC - 29
- Brighton & Hove Albion - 28
- Crystal Palace - 28
- Stoke City - 28
- Burnley FC - 27
- Swansea City - 25
- Huddersfield Town - 25
- West Bromwich Albion - 23
Pretty fecked up situation altogether. He is on a way to get 80 points in the league and you can argue if he gets it right and God knows we can play better than this, we can challenge next season. Other options are not great and could hardly do better from that perspective.
On the other hand, we look like a team with no real identity, caught somewhere between his ultra-defensive approach and expectations of attacking football that a big team like United should play which he can't implement. So, it results in us looking not defensively solid enough, nor dangerous enough on the other side of the pitch in most games. And in most important ones like last night, when we need to attack, in trying to bypass the midfield with a pretty simplistic idea of how to nick a goal and go through.
He will get another year and I'm fine with it, but some improvement until now and the end of the season would be more than welcome.
On the other hand, we look like a team with no real identity, caught somewhere between his ultra-defensive approach and expectations of attacking football that a big team like United should play which he can't implement. So, it results in us looking not defensively solid enough, nor dangerous enough on the other side of the pitch in most games. And in most important ones like last night, when we need to attack, in trying to bypass the midfield with a pretty simplistic idea of how to nick a goal and go through.
He will get another year and I'm fine with it, but some improvement until now and the end of the season would be more than welcome.
When we're in second place behind the best side the Premier League has ever seen and where a loss to Sevilla can be considered a huge shock?
Ha ha. Cheers. I realised there was a risk I was just going to keep writing and writing and writing without ever getting anywhere in particular. But I am glad that glimpse of the inside of my mind brought one person some pleasure at least.
Under Fergie we were frequently dumped out of Europe by small clubs such as Leverkusen, Lille, Galatasary even though we had a team full of superstars.
We're 2nd in the league above some excellent teams like Liverpool, tottenham, Chelsea.
Mourinho will silence doubters next season and he clearly needs a few more of the hard working types of players that thrive in his systems vefore he can build a ptoper Jose team.
We're 2nd in the league above some excellent teams like Liverpool, tottenham, Chelsea.
Mourinho will silence doubters next season and he clearly needs a few more of the hard working types of players that thrive in his systems vefore he can build a ptoper Jose team.
That is indeed a very good post. Which could only possibly be improved by including the full Ronay quote you paraphrased.
Agree with everything you say, even though it's depressing as hell.
I always fecking hated that chant.I cannot wait.
Seems we're literally aiming to play at the theatre of dreams.
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