We just have to do it the old fashioned way, play terrible and win.
If Löw is flexible enough we can come back from this.
Group F (Germany, Mexico, Sweden, South Korea)
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
If Löw is flexible enough we can come back from this.
You should see him in the F1 thread, every time Hamilton overtakes someone ' the championship is over!!!)
Löw's 4231 never worked since he moved away from the counterattacking style of 2010 to a sort of possession style. It was exploited by Italy in 2012 and showed its weakness already in the quarterfinal against Greece that year. We had the same problems in 2014 until Löw moved to the 433 which gave us the balance and defensive stability to beat France and Brazil. The final already hinted at the same problems again when we moved back to the 4231 after Schürrle replaced Kramer and Özil moved back in the middle again. But Schweinsteiger went superhuman and saved the day.
Same story in 2016 and now we're here again. It's truely mind-boggling how Löw can't see what actually worked in his brilliant tournaments and what didn't in the disappointing ones. If this wasn't a wake-up call for him and/or the team can influence his line-ups similar to how Ballack did in 2008, we're fecked.
Same story in 2016 and now we're here again. It's truely mind-boggling how Löw can't see what actually worked in his brilliant tournaments and what didn't in the disappointing ones. If this wasn't a wake-up call for him and/or the team can influence his line-ups similar to how Ballack did in 2008, we're fecked.
So much drama, it's just one game with worrying signs true but one game still.
IIRC, Kimmich provided 9 assists in the qualification games. He's a quality and very valuable player.
I´m really curious how many Fullbacks Löw has to burn through until people realize that the problem is not so much the quality of players but the defensive system. Löw in his whole tenure has never found a solution for the FB situation which is mindboggling given how long he is Coach now and that we had the arguably most complete FB in history in the squad for the majority of the time.
Right now, we play a system without the personell to properly execute it, which goes beyond just the Fullbacks, but also the defensive and offensive midfielder. Instead of adjusting the system towards the players that are at his disposal, Löw tries to shoehorn his system in. That he left Sané, who can provide width by his own, at home and did not start Reus when we desperately needed cutting edge just added to the problems.
Why not just play him as a winger or wide forward then and have a defender playing defence?
The first half was really bad and also the last 15 minutes.
Counter after counter. Was incredible to watch as a neutral.
Counter after counter. Was incredible to watch as a neutral.
It's just one game if you disregard the problems all the last test games showed. Nothing has improved from the dreadful games against Austria and Saudi Arabia (the same Saudi Arabia that was dispatched by Russia 5-0 would have deserved a draw against us). I don't think Sweden and South Korea are that much worse than Mexico either. In principle we have the players to turn this around, but I guess Löw will be too timid in changing the lineup to make that turnaround happen in the short time we have.
It worked perfectly well in the official games prior to the WC. Maybe it will work well in the next WC games too. Or not. Time will tell. Maybe the problem is not with Kimmich's defensive qualities but with the way Low asks him to play.
I don't necessarily agree with this. The problem isn't the formation but how the formation is played. You sight the Euro 12 match, which is the match that made he dislike Low, but the problem with that match had nothing to do with the formation but the decision to play Ozil on the right wing instead of Muller, with Kroos playing centrally, and completely kill any width we might have had. While it was correct to play Kroos in the middle to counter Italy's strength in the center, it was also paromount to get the ball as wide as possible so Italy's 3 central defenders can be stretched. Playing Ozil in the right meant he was always going to cut inside and play right into Italy's hands of conjesting the center.
Yesterday, the issue again wasnt with the formation but the fact that Low stretched both of his full backs forward and left no protection for the two central defenders, if he had instructed either Kroos or Khedira to sit back (like Schweinsteiger in 2014) then it would have allowed one of the central defenders to rotate to the wing without sacrificing the space in the center. If Low feels neither Khedira or Kroos has the ability to fulfil that role then that is a massive mistake on his part to not take Weigl there because he is perfect for that type of role. Maybe Rudy would be the next best option but I would rather he plays Khedira there.
Again, there needs to be a change in mentality in the team. They can't push forward at free will ignoring the defensive duties, they need to be more balanced.
Well yes, that's my point. The 4231 was fine until after the 2010 World Cup. Ballack pushing Löw to move to the 4231 during the Euro 2008 actually saved that tournament after Löw had fecked it up at the start. We can go deeper into detail about width, what players should play where and stuff like that. But the underlying issue is that the 4231 worked truely well as a counterattacking set-up with the peak in 2010 against England and Argentina. However, Löw decided afterwards to become a "visionary" in German football and force a shitty contructed possession based style on the team without adjusting the formation/player types/positions. And he's still stuck right there. In 2014 Neuer's sweeping saved our ass when it wasn't working against weaker sides and the move to the 433 turned the team into a brilliant side against the stronger teams.
So far nothing hints at something like that saving us again. The notion that playing someone like Rudy to keep Löw's flawed dream alive is the better option than adjusting the style of play to suit the actual quality players we have is just insane. It's a nationalteam not a club side. You build around the players you have, you don't choose the system and then ignore that you can't just buy the missing pieces or believe it'll work by using bad options.
Yea I agree Neuer saved our asses against Algeria and yesterday our luck with that approach ran out.
What team do you suggest we play against Sweden?
Kimmich isn't the problem. Why he is brought up all the time? With Müller on the right flank (on paper) he needs to push forward, else the right side is completely dead. Someone has to cover for him, of course. In Munich we have the same issue with Müller on the right wing, it works there, too.
Khedira needs to be dropped, that's out of the question for me.
Neuer- Kimmich, Boateng, Süle, Hector--Goretzka, Gündogan, Kroos--Brandt, Werner, Reus. Won't happen, though. Also there would be still a defensive orientated midfielder missing, I know. Still, it would be better than every formation which includes Khedira. I even would prefer Süle playing in CDM than having Khedira on the field.
Müller should be dropped as well, but Löw won't do that.
Khedira needs to be dropped, that's out of the question for me.
Neuer- Kimmich, Boateng, Süle, Hector--Goretzka, Gündogan, Kroos--Brandt, Werner, Reus. Won't happen, though. Also there would be still a defensive orientated midfielder missing, I know. Still, it would be better than every formation which includes Khedira. I even would prefer Süle playing in CDM than having Khedira on the field.
Müller should be dropped as well, but Löw won't do that.
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Too much tactical analyses....Maybe Germany lacks a leader like Schweini and a striker like Klose. Werner might be much quicker than Klose was in 2014 but he lacks experience at this level and he doesn't seem ready yet (same as Jesus last night). And maybe some players are not in good form. Boateng was injured not long ago. Muller has regressed, imo. Ozil was unconvincing for Arsenal last season and continues with his mediocre performances. Etc. Sometimes the reason for a loss/poor form is much simpler.
You think Klose or a younger Boateng/Özil would've klosed the gaps at the back? When you have such gaping holes in your defense -repeatedly - you have to look at tactics.
I'd probably try a 343ish formation with Reus Werner Müller as the 3 forwards and Süle as the 3rd centerback. I trust those 3 at the back to figure out themselves how to cover the wingbacks more than I trust Löw to find a balanced formation. Kroos is obviously a certain starter in midfield, probably don't mind Khedira if he doesn't have to play a disciplined DM role, because he simply can't do that. He never had the discipline or the skills to read the game well enough to give a midfield 2 balance. But if he's free to go box to box he's maybe still the best partner for Kroos. Don't care if Gündogan plays instead of him though.
Müller's performances don't really warrant a start either, but I think if he finds his world cup form, we'll be fine. If he doesn't, not sure any of the other options is good enough to help us win the tournament anyway. Özil and Draxler shouldn't start. Reus has to. Don't think anything like that will happen though.
Tactics may be a part of the problem. But only a part. When half of the players have an indifferent season or come back from injuries, we shouldn't probably expect too much.
Boateng, Ozil, Muller, Draxler struggled last season. Werner scored only 13 league goals. The front 3 have scored, what, 25 league goals between them? That's rubbish. I know Klose wasn't exactly brilliant in the league but he was an exception.
Would any of Werner, Draxler and Muller make Brazil's squad on the basis of their form last season? Probably not. Muller looked like a better player when he was 20 y.o.
Still, early days. Germany will beat Sweden and S. Korea, imo. And then everything is possible. Brazil didn't look brilliant either.
The problem is not just tactics - Mexico flat out ignored the LB yesterday and had their "winger" on that side come in and man mark Kroos out of the game - they had no fear the LB position could hurt them all. This also meant when they got the ball on the counter they already had Vela central and ready to run direct at Hummels/Boateng and stretch them.
The shitty, shitty LB talent isn't a tactics problem. It's maybe an issue that will need tactics to try and mitigate - but it's a real serious issue. Maybe Hector simply has to play.
The shitty, shitty LB talent isn't a tactics problem. It's maybe an issue that will need tactics to try and mitigate - but it's a real serious issue. Maybe Hector simply has to play.
I'll give you Reus for Özil, but the other ones? Süle didn't get enough playtime, Brandt only got 5th and Gündogan is a dice roll. On a good day, he's good. On most days, however, he doesn't change the game. I'm not too impressed. I maintain that it's easy to call out players after a lost game, but I'm not convinced we actually have better alternatives. And I'm not yet hurting enough to start experimenting.
The problem isn't the players. The ones we had were good enough. The problem is that players like Kroos stopped running the second he lost the ball. Compare that to 2014 where we would outrun the other team. Mexico beat Germany by being a better Germany, essentially. fecking lazy fecks have to start doing the ground work, everything else builds from that. That's the key point. And if you crack the whip, they can do it. Löw needs to toughen up.
Tactically, yesterday wasn't too bad. It's just work effort. And whatever tactic you pick, none of them will work if the team is getting lazy on key positions. And that's what happened yesterday.
I'm never a big fan of combined XI and that stuff. I think Werner did a lot of work, like dropping back and making deep runs behind the back line. He did what you could expect of a striker yesterday.
Boateng looked bad only by his own lofty standards, considering the exposure the two CBs were suffering from I don't think many would have looked stellar. Maybe on another day they would've kept the clean sheet in the first half, but that would have been massive individual quality compensating for tactical mistakes.
I think the game was lost in central midfield, both in posession (lack of control) and in defence (lack of cover), so feel like it's too much guess work to critizise the attacking players after such a match. That being said it - again - seemed clear to me that Reus should start. LW/10/RW/3rd CM it doesn't really matter, he finds spaces and he injects some much needed urgency and directness into the play.
I think Hector is a fairly good LB, who is a bit underrated, because he remained loyal to Cologne and not having a second LB on that level isn't Löw's fault, though in hindsight one might quesiton whether it wouldn't have been better to keep Plattenhardt back to provide more cover, since all attacks came from the right anyway.
Agree about Reus, think he will start against Sweden.
Going overkill on the hindsight one might ask whether Götze and Sane would have helped yesterday. Sane would've gotten the space he needs had he played as a LM (or at least given Kroos some more space by demanding more attention than Plattenhardt) and Götze, who is probably Germany's most pressing resistent player, would've helped keeping it cool in the center.
For this WC, but they also need a massive overhaul after. Neuer, Hummels, Boateng, Khedira, Ozil and Gomez need to leave Germany.
Don't be so dramatic. Neuer, aside from his recent injuries, is still massive. Hummels and Boateng aren't even 30. Gomez is just a plan D and I think the worth of Khedira and Özil depends hugely on the tactical context.
Sule has 42 appearances in all competitions, how is that not enough playtime? Alos many games with Germany last year and this year.
And you are seriously holding Leverkusen coming 5th as an argument against Brandt? What has that good to do with anything? He had a good season, he had a good Confed Cup and he was dangerous yesterday after coming in. His profile fits better than most for one of the Winger positions in Low's system, he could only do it better after the shitshow served by Draxler, Muller and Ozil.
Germany has serious problems based on the last 4 games, they are on the brink of crashing out if they lose the next one against Sweden and you think it is too early to change something? If nothing changes, they can fly home next Sunday and the "Golden Generation" of Muller, Ozil, Boateng, Hummels, Khedira, Kroos etc can write off ever winning another title for Germany.
I agree about most points (don't think we have a chance against Brazil) and Werner was very bad yesterday, but his last season was easily good enough for Brazil.
Yes he scored "only" 13 goals for a patchy RB Leipzig, but I don't think that is a low number for a 22 y/o striker. Gabriel Jesus is the starting striker for Brazil and he scored 13 in the league, Firmino's tally in the league is 15. That is not much better than Werner, and both played in much better teams.
In all competitions, Werner managed 21 goals and 10 assists, that is fecking brilliant for a striker of his age and only topped by Mbappe in Europe.
He also scored 8 goals in 14 for Germany, better goals/games ratio than Ronaldo and Messi (and Gabriel Jesus and Firmino, if you want comparisons with players playing less games).
Mexico had 8 man in the last third yesterday, Sane would have dribbled into opponents like he did against Austria. He would have been the alternative to Brandt, who did fine when he came in. I like the idea of Gotze because he can create something out of nothing. The thing is, he does not have the physical attributes to compete in a fast and intense game like yesterday. He is also not the right player to cover for fullbacks.
What. Neuer? Based on what? Being really, reall good yesterday? Coming into his prime years?
It's probably pointless to discuss this, but I was mainly talking about the first half, since the run of the second was completely determined by Mexico's lead. Sane, to give the left side some (one man) edge, especially since he is actually happy to be isolated and wait for diagonal balls when the initial build up happens on the right, Götze because he is very good at keeping the ball and circulation up against a pressing such as Mexico's. But again this is so much hindsight and what ifs that it's basically pointless. I didn't fault Löw for excluding either when he made the announcement, so it would be fairly hypocritical to hold it against him now.
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I will hold off any conclusions until after the next two games. I am still thoroughly convinced that the sole mistake was excluding Reus at the start and playing Özil over him. The only thing that worries me slightly is how shit Kroos was, he might very well be find fitness wise after those last two seasons.
Mexico had massive chances prior to going up 1-0. It's not as if those chances only came when Germany had to open up more after the 1-0. In fact, Mexico looked even more dangerous prior to the goal and seemed to sit back a little too much afterwards.
Tell me the truth, do.ob, you really like that "DIE MANNSCHAFT" thing, or you keep repeating that to annoy other Germans who hate it?
I just think it's funny how people keep using the German word for team in the middle of English sentences like it has some huge significance.Tell me the truth, do.ob, you really like that "DIE MANNSCHAFT" thing, or you keep repeating that to annoy other Germans who hate it?
People trying to "subtly" show off their knowledge by using a phrase that no one in Germany would use in that way.
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I'm not very comfortable with the 3-5-2 and i haven't seen this German squad, not the Confed Cup squad which played with this formation for some matches. I have yet to see them play well with this formation so risking it right now with qualification for the next round at stake would be very risky.
While Ozil wasnt great yesterday, I wouldn't drop him because he is the only playmaker we have. Reus is a forward and therefore I would not want to put the burden of creating on him; he should stay forward and try to be on the end of Ozils passes.
Same case for Muller. For me just change Reus for Draxler, Hector for Plattenhardt and change the mindset of the team.
Love the crisis in the Germany camp. I actually love the problems at every top team. Only Spain could half convince me, the rest all look not ready for the tournament yet. I still think Germany will quite easily reach the quarter finals, then it depends on the opponent and their form. They will get better game by game, as Jose also said. First game is a wake up call and some drastic things should happen next
Fair enough!
Not many high scoring games so far. Games lack goals
The Germany-Mexico game was a fantastic watch as a neutral. Mexico played the game with a level of intensity that I personally love watching, and definitely stunned the Germans to an extent. But importantly, they managed to combine the excellent combinations on the counter with a strong defensive display. Personally I enjoyed watching Chicharito have a big impact on a big stage.
As for Germany, they have enough about them to recover from this. However it definitely raised some alarm bells about their perceived weaknesses. Prior to the world cup someone mentioned that their 11 was frightening and I just didn't see it. Their first 11 is very good of course but it doesn't leave you trembling in fear/awe. They're a team that excelled due to cohesion and organisation. I think they need play with more with in the next game and possibly go for a three man midfield in the next game. Kroos as good as he is lacks mobility and Khedira added to it instead up making up for his weakness.
As for Germany, they have enough about them to recover from this. However it definitely raised some alarm bells about their perceived weaknesses. Prior to the world cup someone mentioned that their 11 was frightening and I just didn't see it. Their first 11 is very good of course but it doesn't leave you trembling in fear/awe. They're a team that excelled due to cohesion and organisation. I think they need play with more with in the next game and possibly go for a three man midfield in the next game. Kroos as good as he is lacks mobility and Khedira added to it instead up making up for his weakness.
Heute abend treffen Tunesien und The Men's Team!
So disappointed by Korea, damn... what just happened, no ability to control the ball, each close control is too long for the other team members to make something of the ball. And Sweden was not good at all. Unbelievable.
Do you want to say that our players don't fit to the style that Löw wants to play, namely possession based football? Then I have to strongly disagre. We have the perfect players for this exact type of football and Spain aside there is no team who is more suited to it. Gündogan, Özil and especially Kroos flourish in such systems. But we can definitely argue about the formation. I'd prefer a 4-3-3, too.
Yet, I think the problem is more down to the players Löw chooses. Until Reus came in there was no player who effectively made deep runs. Müller used to be such a player but in recent years I only see him receiving the ball on the wing and then crossing it into the middle without any kind of inspiration, spin or purpose. This is even more ridiculous if the addressees are called Werner or Özil. And Draxler.. Well, never been a fan.
The offense looked much better with Reus and Brandt on the pitch. And the defence.. well, I think it is a problem that we lose too many balls because of the issues described above. We aren't patient like Spain but too quickly look for the desperate cross or shot. Spain defends through possession and we give it away too easy.
I also think that Khedira became lazy because he has had the licence to roam freely for too long and now focuses too much on his attacking game. Kroos also lacks the discipline a little bit (for Madrid, too). That used to be different.