Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Kentonio]

I'd quite like a future system where voters are asked for their positions on a range of policies and that automatically allocates their vote based on the candidates positions. I'd love to see the results that would produce, I think it would be fairly astonishing.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I'd quite like a future system where voters are asked for their positions on a range of policies and that automatically allocates their vote based on the candidates positions. I'd love to see the results that would produce, I think it would be fairly astonishing.

Have you seen/used the website that does that for you?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Farage

Appoint a joint team of Farage and JRM and they can take the blame for the fall out.

 

[Ramshock]

Lots of the multi-nationals
Ireland is already having discussions with some and predicting quite a few to establish their bases here in Ireland, EU friendly

Talk about shooting yourselves in the foot. I’m not sure what’s worse, trump electorate or brexit voters with their heads in the sand. Clearly they both like believing in liars

Was there anything the Irish govt could have done to stop JRM relocating his firm to Dublin?

 

[711]

No idea how it works in Switzerland and I think I’ve said this before but, for me, it’s the way that referenda can be achieved via a tiny minority is the problen. I think there should some sort of rule that a two thirds majority is the minimum required. Without that, nothing changes.

I’d also be easily convinced that some sort of minimum turnout is also required, or the whole thing is null and void.

It’s madness that as big an issue as Brexit can be achieved with a 1.9% margin and 28% of the population not even voting.

I get the desirability of a margin before any change is effected, but turnout doesn't worry me. As Flawless says above, make it as easy to vote as possible, but if some doesn't that's up to them.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I get the desirability of a margin before any change is effected, but turnout doesn't worry me. As Flawless says above, make it as easy to vote as possible, but if some don't it's up to them.

Yeah, turnout definitely the lesser of the two issues here.

 

[JPRouve]

Thanks, I was kind of aware of Switzerland. Still can't make my mind up though. Referendums apart, I do seem to hear a lot of anti-democratic opinions nowadays, 'people are too stupid, uneducated, old, whatever'. Quite worrying really, I can't think of any alternative that wouldn't be a step backwards.

I think that you make a mistake by labeling it as anti-democratic. Think about it this way, I said in this thread that I didn't even want to vote for some subjects because I know that I am totally out of my depth, if you look at Brexit there isn't a single official that understands every aspects of it, not one. But people were asked to have an opinion based on anecdotal or flat out lies, and logically most people were unable to spot it, in fact some officials probably didn't spot some of the most ridiculous claims, one of them was Cameron claiming that he successfully negotiated for a law that was created in 2003.
What I'm trying to say here is that in theory in a representative democracy, parliamentarians are given the tools and time to study subjects that are out of their remits, you and I don't have that time, we can't study CETA article by article and be supported by experts, we are not in an optimal context and our potential vote will definitely be misguided even if we take the correct decision.

That poor context is what fringe politicians want, that's why they are often asking for referendums. They know that we don't know and they know that we won't know unless someone tells us which they can label as scaremongering or conspiracy.

 

[711]

I think that you make a mistake by labeling it as anti-democratic. Think about it this way, I said in this thread that I didn't even want to vote for some subjects because I know that I am totally out of my depth, if you look at Brexit there isn't a single official that understands every aspects of it, not one. But people were asked to have an opinion based on anecdotal or flat out lies, and logically most people were unable to spot it, in fact some officials probably didn't spot some of the most ridiculous claims, one of them was Cameron claiming that he successfully negotiated for a law that was created in 2003.
What I'm trying to say here is that in theory in a representative democracy, parliamentarians are given the tools and time to study subjects that are out of their remits, you and I don't have that time, we can't study CETA article by article and be supported by experts, we are not in an optimal context and our potential vote will definitely be misguided even if we take the correct decision.

That poor context is what fringe politicians want, that's why they are often asking for referendums. They know that we don't know and they know that we won't know unless someone tells us which they can label as scaremongering or conspiracy.

I'm happy with representative democracy, it's the people that think others shouldn't be allowed to vote that worry me.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Spoiler: Raab

Labour’s Pat McFadden goes next.

Q: In the Sunday Telegraph you said the UK would only pay its exit bill if the EU offered a trade deal. But at the moment the draft withdrawal agreement does not include a conditionality clause, does it?

Raab accepts that is not in the withdrawal agreement now. It needs to be added, he says.

He says this can be done in different ways.

One option would be to insert a clause in the withdrawal agreement.

But there must be clear obligation on the EU to move expeditiously and get the trade deal agree.

Q: But the December agreement said the financial settlement was without prejudice, and hence not dependent on a final trade deal.

Raab says the government has also always made it clear that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.

Robbins says this is not a new feature. It is something the UK has discussed with the commission on many occasions already.

Raab and Robbins at the Commons Brexit Committee.
75% of the withdrawal agreement was supposedly agreed in December. Recently 80% was supposedly agreed as stated by Barnier.

In fact as has been said nothing is agreed until everything is agreed because the British government cannot be trusted.

 

[Honest John]

Remain overshot the mark too by telling people that there was going to be an immediate economic disaster.

This was their biggest mistake - because when it didn't happen it gave rise to the notion that you couldn't trust experts.

Now there is a lot more known and much better data. And none of it reads well.

For that reason I think it should be put to the people again with the questions properly formulated, the facts clearly laid out - and anyone pulling downright lies out of their arses publicly flogged.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I'm happy with representative democracy, it's the people that think others shouldn't be allowed to vote that worry me.

Do you believe your MP should vote according to his convictions or have to tow the party line and vote against his convictions?

 

[Kentonio]

Have you seen/used the website that does that for you?

Yeah, I think its a much better system than asking people to vote for individual people/party with all the celebrity/charisma/partisan bullshit that brings with it. Not that it's really practical in the real world, but I can dream..

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Remain overshot the mark too by telling people that there was going to be an immediate economic disaster.

This was their biggest mistake - because when it didn't happen it gave rise to the notion that you couldn't trust experts.

Now there is a lot more known and much better data. And none of it reads well.

For that reason I think it should be put to the people again with the questions properly formulated, the facts clearly laid out - and anyone pulling downright lies out of their arses publicly flogged.

That's not true at all. First of all, the predictions of economic disaster were about what would happen when Brexit happens. And it still hasn't happened. Second, the "we don't trust experts" stuff was doing the rounds before the referendum took place, being spread by shit-heads like Michael Gove.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Yeah, I think its a much better system than asking people to vote for individual people/party with all the celebrity/charisma/partisan bullshit that brings with it. Not that it's really practical in the real world, but I can dream..

I'm a fan of it too.

 

[Green_Red]

That would probably depend on the trade agreement the UK had with the EU. It is not straight forward. If the UK was to charge tariffs for goods, a border is unavoidable, but the UK doesn't have to charge tariffs. It's a complicated scenario because nobody knows what trade would be like in a no deal situation.

So you would allow goods into Britain from the EU tariff free whilst Europe checks all goods from Britain and hits them with tariffs? Clever idea mate.

 

[Honest John]

That's not true at all. First of all, the predictions of economic disaster were about what would happen when Brexit happens. And it still hasn't happened. Second, the "we don't trust experts" stuff was doing the rounds before the referendum took place, being spread by shit-heads like Michael Gove.

What you say may be right but it was spun to look like they meant 'immediate'. The fact that we didn't experience an instant meltdown gave fuel to the whole notion that it was 'dodgy' experts scaremongering.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

What you say may be right but it was spun to look like they meant 'immediate'. The fact that we didn't experience an instant meltdown gave fuel to the whole notion that it was 'dodgy' experts scaremongering.

Sure but you can't put that on the Remain campaign. That was just more mendacious spin by the other side.

 

[Honest John]

Sure but you can't put that on the Remain campaign. That was just more mendacious spin by the other side.

The reality is that it will be like death from a thousand cuts as businesses gradually move out of the country and the dawning realisation that this 'global' trading idea isn't all that.

 

[Green_Red]

Strange that nobody is talking about the 53 free trade agreements that the UK is signed up to as a member of the EU which will also end when Brexit kicks in.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_free_trade_agreements

 

[Massive Spanner]

Strange that nobody is talking about the 53 free trade agreements that the UK is signed up to as a member of the EU which will also end when Brexit kicks in.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_free_trade_agreements

That's because the UK will negotiate its own amazing trade agreements with these countries when they no longer have the pesky EU holding them back, countries that they wouldn't be able to trade with if they had to stay in the EU. Countries like the US.. no wait, they have one pending with the EU. Cana.. no, they do too. Err.. Japa.. no, they just got one with the EU too.

Guess Russia and China will be the UK's new best mates, then.

 

[GloryHunter07]

Remain overshot the mark too by telling people that there was going to be an immediate economic disaster.

This was their biggest mistake - because when it didn't happen it gave rise to the notion that you couldn't trust experts.

Now there is a lot more known and much better data. And none of it reads well.

For that reason I think it should be put to the people again with the questions properly formulated, the facts clearly laid out - and anyone pulling downright lies out of their arses publicly flogged.

One of the reasons it didnt happen is because the Bank of England (unlike the government) actually had a plan to mitigate disruption caused by Brexit and actually did something to help after the referendum.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Strange that nobody is talking about the 53 free trade agreements that the UK is signed up to as a member of the EU which will also end when Brexit kicks in.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_free_trade_agreements

It's been pointed out dozens of times here, but facts are always ignored by Brexiters.

Here's Brain of Britain Craig Mackinlay, a Conservative Brexiter, today at the Commons Brexit Committee:

If am making a pen for sale in the UK, why should I have to comply with an EU standard. It could make it harder to sell my pen in the US, where standards are slightly different.

Words fail me.

 

[JPRouve]

It's been pointed out dozens of times here, but facts are always ignored by Brexiters.

Here's Brain of Britain Craig Mackinlay, a Conservative Brexiter, today at the Commons Brexit Committee:

If am making a pen for sale in the UK, why should I have to comply with an EU standard. It could make it harder to sell my pen in the US, where standards are slightly different.

Words fail me.

Are they following UK, EU, US or none of the aforementioned standards for their pens for sale in the UK?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Are they following UK, EU, US or none of the aforementioned standards for their pens for sale in the UK?

The pen manufacturer will move to the EU.

 

[Fully Fledged]

Are they following UK, EU, US or none of the aforementioned standards for their pens for sale in the UK?

The most popular pen in the UK is french so I'd say the EU.

 

[Green_Red]

It's been pointed out dozens of times here, but facts are always ignored by Brexiters.

Here's Brain of Britain Craig Mackinlay, a Conservative Brexiter, today at the Commons Brexit Committee:

If am making a pen for sale in the UK, why should I have to comply with an EU standard. It could make it harder to sell my pen in the US, where standards are slightly different.

Words fail me.

Im no Brexiteer but I stand by my ascertion a while back. The best deal Britian will ever get with the EU is the one they have right now, membership. Beyond that I think Britian will be very lucky if they get out of membership with a deal that is worth being tied to in the long run. I honestly believe they voted out so just do it at this stage. Either that or just call the whole thing off. Btw pens is a very lucrative industry often overlooked by major investors...

The whole thing has become a long drawn owut shambles that it never had to be, and the lunatics have well and truly taken over the asylum. What May is doing reeks of incompetency. If a project was being run like that in most business the exec committee would pull the plug. Its absolute chaos and its clear to everyone but May and the cabinet that any deal is now a dead horse.

 

[711]

Do you believe your MP should vote according to his convictions or have to tow the party line and vote against his convictions?

You would have to decide case by case, but you couldn't complain if you were thrown out of a party for voting against it. I don't belong to a political party any more myself, because to belong would involve too much compromise for me, so maybe I'm not the best person to ask.

 

[JPRouve]

You would have to decide case by case, but you couldn't complain if you were thrown out of a party for voting against it. I don't belong to a political party any more myself, because to belong would involve too much compromise for me, so maybe I'm not the best person to ask.

If you have been an active member of a party, you probably know that they make shits up as they go and people rarely agree with each others. Also when you join, no one ask you to follow a certain political line, so not only you could but you should complain if they throw you out.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Im no Brexiteer but I stand by my ascertion a while back. The best deal Britian will ever get with the EU is the one they have right now, membership. Beyond that I think Britian will be very lucky if they get out of membership with a deal that is worth being tied to in the long run. I honestly believe they voted out so just do it at this stage. Either that or just call the whole thing off. Btw pens is a very lucrative industry often overlooked by major investors...

The whole thing has become a long drawn owut shambles that it never had to be, and the lunatics have well and truly taken over the asylum. What May is doing reeks of incompetency. If a project was being run like that in most business the exec committee would pull the plug. Its absolute chaos and its clear to everyone but May and the cabinet that any deal is now a dead horse.

Yes the best possible deal by far is what they currently have. In a company environment the whole cabinet and the PM would have been thrown out for incompetence long ago. It's now chaos and desperation. It's a choice between stopping the farce, which will be humiliating for the country or crashing out which will be a disaster. But the government will choose a disaster.

 

[711]

If you have been an active member of a party, you probably know that they make shits up as they go and people rarely agree with each others. Also when you join, no one ask you to follow a certain political line, so not only you could but you should complain if they throw you out.

Your original question was how an MP should vote, and my 'being thrown out' was only referring to that.

I then moved on to how I feel about being a member of a party, I wasn't suggesting anybody threw me out of one, just how I feel personally. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

You would have to decide case by case, but you couldn't complain if you were thrown out of a party for voting against it. I don't belong to a political party any more myself, because to belong would involve too much compromise for me, so maybe I'm not the best person to ask.

Just wanted your opinion in general terms.
Do voters vote for their MP or the party they want to see in government which may not necessarily mean the same thing? If they are voting just for the government their MP could be anyone. Just thinking aloud.

 

[JPRouve]

Your original question was how an MP should vote, and my 'being thrown out' was only referring to that.

I then moved on to how I feel about being a member of a party, I wasn't suggesting anybody threw me out of one, just how I feel personally. Sorry for the confusion.

It wasn't my question and I just gave my opinion on your answer. The way party works at local or national level put them in a very weak position if they try to throw someone out because he didn't vote like they say, particularly when it's not even his job to do that, he is supposed to represent voters and their hypothetical views.

 

[Green_Red]

Yes the best possible deal by far is what they currently have. In a company environment the whole cabinet and the PM would have been thrown out for incompetence long ago. It's now chaos and desperation. It's a choice between stopping the farce, which will be humiliating for the country or crashing out which will be a disaster. But the government will choose a disaster.

100% right. And Joe Public doesnt want to admit they got it wrong either. My future mother in law voted leave and was almost proud of it back in 2016. Brexit is no longer a conversation that is allowed to be discussed in front of her...

 

[711]

Just wanted your opinion in general terms.
Do voters vote for their MP or the party they want to see in government which may not necessarily mean the same thing? If they are voting just for the government their MP could be anyone. Just thinking aloud.

I'm with you. I guess people are different, but I've voted against the candidate from my own party in the past, for different reasons. I do think it's important to be able to vote for an individual, so when it comes to PR for example, I could support single transferable voting, but not a list system. Just my own opinion.

 

[endless_wheelies]

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TBF I trust her above everyone else to do this.

History will judge her kindly, riding a unicycle between volcanoes isn't easy. Terrible speaker but astute behind that.

 

[Nikhil]

Tweet

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[horsechoker]

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TBF I trust her above everyone else to do this.

History will judge her kindly, riding a unicycle between volcanoes isn't easy. Terrible speaker but astute behind that.

I think she'll be bullied by JRM and co. into no deal.

 

[esmufc07]

Tweet

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TBF I trust her above everyone else to do this.

History will judge her kindly, riding a unicycle between volcanoes isn't easy. Terrible speaker but astute behind that.

Not sure if serious?

She was an abject Home Secretary, and is an even worse PM.

 

[endless_wheelies]

Not sure if serious?

She was an abject Home Secretary, and is an even worse PM.

Abject Home Secretary who smashed the record for longest office?

 

[esmufc07]

Abject Home Secretary who smashed the record for longest office?

Hunt was the longest serving Health Secretary, do you think he did a good job too?