It's raining today. Maybe some time over the weekend we can?
The beginning of the end... (the original board vetoed Mourinho's transfer wish list thread)
- Thread starter charlenefan
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
Remember those days when Moyes won the CL and league titles with different teams from different countries? Ah good days!
Of course the CEO shapes policy, you can hardly suggest otherwise when, as you say, they, or by extension, the board, sign the cheques. Wielding a financial veto is the most persuasive pressure you can exert to directly shape policy. I understand the distinction you make in describing the power differential in the workplace , but on certain issues within football a clear understanding of boundaries needs to be recognized: for example if we look at the CEO's dogged retention of players the manager no longer has a tactical use for, then, I believe, it illustrates an overstepping of the mark, and should recognize that for the best practice to exist any such decision should be taken by someone who is qualified to make these types of nuanced judgments and defer to the insight of a person who works pitchside, on a day-to-day basis, with said players. In fact, your description excuses any sort of interference, shy of actually picking the team, and ultimately gives Woodward the excuse of being a passive supplicant to the whim of the board ........... a board which, lets not forget, owes its very existence to his maneuverings in proposing the takeover in the first place.
I'm no fan of Jose's & I have a deep foreboding about the coming season, but Woodward's use of spin and this inappropriate and indeed inopportune, "cover my ass" press briefing has particularly rankled with me. Anyway, we aren't going to agree, so I'll leave it there.
Sanchez has played across the line too and can play as a second striker too and has scored 20+ goals in the PL and is a genuine world class player. He didn't improve us(we became worse once he joined), how can you be so sure that he could have made us better?
Your mistaking a player being poor with a poor investment by the manager.
Lindelof - Paying 35m for a backup CB when we needed to strengthen the starting 11 is poor output. Not to mention we already had potential future CBs on the books.
Pogba - Paying a world record fee for a CM and then another 50m a year later and still having a dysfunctional midfield as well as a player who you cannot get the best out of is poor output.
The point is he isnt getting the best out of his signings
Board decided that we weren't going to challenge for the league with Toby and Willian, so they didn't think that huge money for them make much sense.
I think many posters don't take into account that Woody knows things we don't know. Jose might be on bad terms with some of the most talented players, the atmosphere might not be good enough.
Why not fire him then?
Because Jose seems good enough to make the top 4 and a better manager is not available right now. A short-term fix of the managerial position is meaningless. So, the 'either support him or fire him' mantra might be false.
In order to have enough money for the next manager to reshape the team, they are unwilling to sign expensive experienced players on big wages. If Sanchez had hit the ground running, they might have been more willing to support Jose. Sanchez offered less than Martial though and blocked his development. Board are wary and rightly so.
Can't really think of a stop-gap signing from the Fergie era who was as ridiculously expensive as Willian would have been, by all accounts. Van Persie is the closest, and he wasn't THAT expensive and a far better player than Willian.
I agree with he approach of not wanting more 29 year old players for huge wages and fees. Adding someone like Willian who you will never get a return on or who you would have to pay off if he fell out of favour like Rooney isn’t the way forward.
Unfortunately the board appointed a manger who wants to follow that approach, he doesn’t want players who he can develop, he wants ready made players and there aren’t many around who are for sale.
It’s as if everyone including Mourinho has pretty much accepted he won’t be here much longer and we are heading towards the inevitable fall out.
Unfortunately the board appointed a manger who wants to follow that approach, he doesn’t want players who he can develop, he wants ready made players and there aren’t many around who are for sale.
It’s as if everyone including Mourinho has pretty much accepted he won’t be here much longer and we are heading towards the inevitable fall out.
Lindelof is only seen as a backup because he didn't have the best season last season, based on his world cup performances he looks ready to step up - so it's still to early to judge.
Plus at the time we bought him Rojo had a long-term injury, Jones is perma-crocked and we couldn't assume that Bailly & Smalling would go the season injury-free, and our intention last year was to challenge for the title meaning we couldn't rely on Tuanzebe to come in and fill that role immediately either.
Therefore I wouldn't class Lindelof as a poor investment.
Our midfield only really became dysfunctional when Pogba was out of the team, not while he was in it. The fact that we had to play McTominay so many times is testament to this. Fellaini doesn't operate with the ball at his feet, Herrera is not more than a rotation option, and Matic can't play 70 games every season either.
So it's no wonder we couldn't get the best out of him when we surrounded him with those options.
I'd argue that most of his signings have done their job, the rest of the team needs strengthening in key areas (RW & LB) but the players he's signed aren't the problem in our team, imo.
That's all reasonable enough even though it makes the manager a dead man walking before the season starts. Not often that a big club engineer such a shite situation but there you go.
Of course, none of the above excuses the idiotic decision to further undermine his chances of getting top four by going public with their lack of confidence in him before a ball's been kicked. Not really his style to take criticism like that on the chin, keep his head down and bust his balls to secure CL football for his successor.
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I think all in all the negative vibes around the media this window have got a bit out of hand.
Listening to the actual words that have come out of Jose's mouth I find it hard to disagree with some of the things he's said, The pre-Season performances were not bad at all given the conditions as well in my view.
I also think the requirement for a CB has got a little overblown, it would be a nice to have in my view, I don't think it's something to be rushed, I think Lindelof and Bailly look good together and as backup options, Jones and Smalling will serve just fine.
If we look at last season, in my opinion the main issue was the ability to get the ball through the middle in the final 1/3rd.
it seems like for all of that season, to get success the tactics were lob it up to Lukaku, get him to get the ball down and lay it off to someone else, or get someone to get up the wings and come in from the side.
We were lacking anyone that can place a good ball through the centre and when Pogba was injured the first time there was no one able to take up the play-maker mantle and we suffered for that IMO.
Lets not forget the season started very positively - Pogba, in the first half of it was the player with the most assists/per minute played.
With that in mind, my thoughts are from what i've seen of Fred, he seems to have a very positive mindset, he seems to be good at delivering that kind of ball we were missing.
Second to that, Perreira is of a similar ilk in that he's not one of these players that can only pass up or down or backwards, he takes a chance and likes to go for more risk/reward type forward passes which I like personally.
Then there's the whole Sanchez 2.0 factor. He seems to have come alive, I'm excited to see what i believe is the first team come out next season after a few months as I think it will be quite a unit.
Further to that, the dominance of Man City from a points perspective was impressive for sure, record breaking etc....
However, I personally think the wheels started to come off at the end, They got knocked out of the FA Cup by Will Grigg and we beat them at home, a few other teams started to suss them out and there were a number of close calls.
I don't think you can win a season in a certain playing style, then change little and continue that into the next and not expect for other teams to have gotten wise to your game.
Above all, the season hasn't started yet, football has a way of ripping predictions to shreds, a number of smaller/non top 5 teams look to have made some great signings (West Ham, Wolves, Everton, Fulham), so I personally think we could be in for an exciting season with it very close up top and the bottom the whole way through...
That could suit Man Utd perfectly.
Listening to the actual words that have come out of Jose's mouth I find it hard to disagree with some of the things he's said, The pre-Season performances were not bad at all given the conditions as well in my view.
I also think the requirement for a CB has got a little overblown, it would be a nice to have in my view, I don't think it's something to be rushed, I think Lindelof and Bailly look good together and as backup options, Jones and Smalling will serve just fine.
If we look at last season, in my opinion the main issue was the ability to get the ball through the middle in the final 1/3rd.
it seems like for all of that season, to get success the tactics were lob it up to Lukaku, get him to get the ball down and lay it off to someone else, or get someone to get up the wings and come in from the side.
We were lacking anyone that can place a good ball through the centre and when Pogba was injured the first time there was no one able to take up the play-maker mantle and we suffered for that IMO.
Lets not forget the season started very positively - Pogba, in the first half of it was the player with the most assists/per minute played.
With that in mind, my thoughts are from what i've seen of Fred, he seems to have a very positive mindset, he seems to be good at delivering that kind of ball we were missing.
Second to that, Perreira is of a similar ilk in that he's not one of these players that can only pass up or down or backwards, he takes a chance and likes to go for more risk/reward type forward passes which I like personally.
Then there's the whole Sanchez 2.0 factor. He seems to have come alive, I'm excited to see what i believe is the first team come out next season after a few months as I think it will be quite a unit.
Further to that, the dominance of Man City from a points perspective was impressive for sure, record breaking etc....
However, I personally think the wheels started to come off at the end, They got knocked out of the FA Cup by Will Grigg and we beat them at home, a few other teams started to suss them out and there were a number of close calls.
I don't think you can win a season in a certain playing style, then change little and continue that into the next and not expect for other teams to have gotten wise to your game.
Above all, the season hasn't started yet, football has a way of ripping predictions to shreds, a number of smaller/non top 5 teams look to have made some great signings (West Ham, Wolves, Everton, Fulham), so I personally think we could be in for an exciting season with it very close up top and the bottom the whole way through...
That could suit Man Utd perfectly.
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Expected more.
From other thread on same topic:
I do have doubts wether Mourinho and Woodward had a good way of working with this, and if Woodward is asking for sporting advice (which I cross my fingers he does), I wonder if that person is worthy of the job. What the feck does he know of the potential of Shaw or Martial, or the short term value of an Alderweireld to the current team? Probably less than most here ...
I disagree with the generality of the statement. Ferguson discussed transfers with Gill and had always stated it was a two-way discussion where Gill would have views on the economical sustainability of purchases. They worked in tandem, Mourinho and Woodward as separated specialists, but the point remains that evaluating the worth and ssustainability of the sporting wishes is a part of the process where the manager is not alone.
I do have doubts wether Mourinho and Woodward had a good way of working with this, and if Woodward is asking for sporting advice (which I cross my fingers he does), I wonder if that person is worthy of the job. What the feck does he know of the potential of Shaw or Martial, or the short term value of an Alderweireld to the current team? Probably less than most here ...
From me or the board? Either way we're both dodgy and you should know better.
True. I'm going to temporarily shake off my enormous disappointment with Ed and his masters and get ready to enjoy the football so many hate
Maguire isn't 29 he's 25. And if the board had accepted Mourinho wasn't going to be around much longer why was he given a new contract in January?
I agree. The situation is quite bad and Woodward is responsible for it too.
Alderweireld would not be a short term fix BTW. He’s 29 not 35. He has 3-4 years left at a very good level bar injuries which we can’t predict and could happen to a younger player too. It’s a long time in football and long enough for Bailly and Lindelof to step in and be ready for top level football.
Maguire isn't much better - if better at all - to defenders we have. Spending 70m or more on him would have been absolute madness.
Maguire is a top 5 CB in the league, the idea that he's not better than Jones/Smalling/Rojo shows you spend very little time outside of Redcaf for footballing opinions.
Thanks!
Missed half of world's top clubs fighting over him last summer when he went for 12m.
Maguire is a worse defender than Smalling. And Bailly. Better at passing though.
We all have different opinions.
I think Maguire is better than our CB’s - but he’s clearly not a world class Peter (yet), and I would have liked him at a reasonable price. But in consideration, breaking the World Record for him seems nuts, and that’s what we have had to do. He would have been an improvement, but at too high a cost.
Point is. if the board didn't want 29 year olds they could have gone back to Mourinho and asked for different targets months ago. Not waited until the end of the window, not signed anyone and just briefed the press.
This is just an alternative to "no value in the market" excuses. Don't be stupid enough to fall for it.
This is just an alternative to "no value in the market" excuses. Don't be stupid enough to fall for it.
Yeah, passing is very important so overall I would say that he is slightly better than our CBs. Would have said slightly worse before the WC. If Mourinho thought that he is that great, why we weren't interested on him before.
Regardless, 70m+ for a marginal improvement is not a good business. Varane would have been a good business. Some top LB like Sandro instead of Young even for big money would have been good business cause of the difference on quality. But spend all that money for Maguire would have been crazy. A bit like how we did under LVG when we signed the likes of Schneiderlin, who while an improvement over Cleverley, was a marginal improvement. Just that this time, a much more costly marginal improvement.
1) Maybe the board did that, but then Mourinho moaned in press to pressure them instead of changing his targets.
2) Who said the no value in market? Sir Fergie the lier. The guy who lead Labour unions on his twenties, sued the previous owners over a fecking horse but apparently - according to some Caf posters - became a chicken from the fear of Glazers to the point that he had to lie in order to defend them.
Players can develop. Clearly Maguire has developed massively since his move from Hull. I would imagine he will be bleeping on a lot of teams' radars now. Great age, great physical presence, obviously great attitude, great technique and skill. Everything you need to be an absolutely TOP CB.
Let's see as the season wears on shall we? The jury is still very much out on Bailly and in my opinion, Smalling, who is not as bad as some on here would have us believe, has reached whatever level he is at. He has showed no improvement in the last 3 - 4 seasons in my opinion.
This post basically sums up my thoughts. We tried to get the targets the manager wanted but the prices weren't reasonable due to various factors including age, agent fees and injury history. The fact that an enquiry was made of Godin despite his age shows that we'd try for players if the economics were favourable.
Also, I'm pretty sure this isn't the first time we've seen the club brief journalists about a transfer window since Woodward took over. Won't be the last.
Mourinho's a big boy. Additionally, he and Woodward are in regular discussion. That's why Mourinho was under the impression we were still possibly going to make another signing, because the club was trying to make another signing. Just didn't work out.
whos the players you see better then Maguire ?
He was pretty much that expensive though. By 2013 standards £24m was a lot of money.
He was a much better player though I admit.
Yeah but Jose is out of touch with modern football. He works at one of the best clubs in the world with cutting edge facilities and great coaches, but he can't keep up. Well, according to the average tosser off the streets that sits down to watch Match of the Day every weekend with his 6 pack of lager and takeaway curry. That guy understands modern football.
Just like most of the worlds top club didn't sign Kante for 6m, or Mahrez for a few hundred K? I could go on.
Smalling couldn't even make the England squad because he can't pass 5 yards.
Toby/VVD/Kompany/Sanchez.
Mahrez and Kante was 5 years ago. Maguire is last summer.
VVD, Vertonghen, Alderweireld, Kompany, Azpilicueta and when it comes to pure defending I even think Smalling is at Maguire's level.
No one would even consider him if he was Italian, French or Spanish, playing in one of those leagues, we'd probably not even know about him. A CB for the prices touted for him is someone admired for their quality across the leagues, type Koulibaly.
What does 5 years ago have to with it? The point is top clubs miss out on quality players all the time or fail to identify potential. If a scout had the ability to correctly predict how players would turn out he'd be the richest man in football.
I was looking at who played in the finals. You gonna answer that last question I wrote or nah?
1) Who do you think on the board actually knows enough about football to disagree with the manager on transfers and getting the right mix of youth and experience?
2) Fergie wanted the club to be successful. He inadvertently contributed to the changes in ownership the first time by fueding with Magnier and McManus. Maybe he wanted to avoid instability at the club. He also knew the debt had been lumbered onto the club and did his best to clear it.
If you think Fergie wouldn't have wanted to sign more players rather than clear the Glazer debt then you're in dream land. He was pragmatic and dealt with the situation he found himself in post takeover.
What happened 10+ years ago is of no relevance to his Utd tenure. Relying on past glories is what we take the piss out of the bin dippers for, not to emulate it.
1) Ed. The guy who has been CEO or second if command of the richest club in the world for the last 15 years.
2) Yeah, it makes sense. He wanted stability so he sued the two owners for a fecking horse. And then the guy who was getting in fights with authority since he was on his twenties, suddenly became a puppet of the new owners. And while he always said that not spending much was his decision, and the moment he left, we started making bids like someone who is playing FM for the first time on his life, obviously he was lying and funds weren't available to him.
Which one is more in the dream land? The conspiracy theory that Fergie changed personality on his sixties, and started lying to everyone, or that the funds were there like Fergie, Gill said and Ed showed when they left.
Terry was suspended. He would play if he weren't suspended. Terry had double of starts compared to Cahill in that CL campaign, and Cahill played in the final when Terry got suspended!!!
Pepe had 1 more start than Varane in that CL campaign. The political regarding Pepe is well known. Perez wanted Varane to start.
You don't play in the final if you got eliminated in previous round. Fabio started in CL final, so did Bromqvist yet Roy Keane didn't. Are we saying Fabio and Bromqvist contributed more to their CL campaign than Keane due to the fact they're started in the final?