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Fanatic 00237

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This 2017 article still rings (no pun intended) true. Also shows why the college football overtime rule is definitely not a more fair system of deciding after a tie.

https://www.theringer.com/2017/2/6/...s-super-bowl-li-patriots-falcons-62316a6f8e3c

The NFL’s Overtime Rules Aren’t Fair — but Neither Are the Alternatives

Matthew Slater’s “heads” call was one of the decisive moments of Super Bowl LI

By Rodger Sherman Feb 6, 2017, 3:16pm EST


Sure, the Patriots made a lot of great plays Sunday night — they had to in order to pull off the greatest comeback in Super Bowl history. But if I had to pick the one that won them the game, I’d pick a play by Matthew Slater.


No, it wasn’t a catch he made: Although he’s listed as a wide receiver, he has only one career catch, and that was in 2011. No, it wasn’t a play he made on special teams. Although he’s made the Pro Bowl six times, his work limiting the Falcons to zero punt return yards wasn’t a critical factor in the game — much of that fell on the punter, and besides, New England didn’t punt during its comeback.


I’m talking about the play Slater made at the beginning of overtime. As New England’s special teams captain, it was Slater’s job to make a pick for the coin toss. Our Kevin Clark reports that Slater is a heads guy, having picked it over tails every time he’s been given the chance over the past six seasons.


Earlier, at the beginning of the game, Slater had faltered. The Super Bowl coin toss is a big deal, with bettors placing wagers on it and the NFL bringing out a celebrity to throw the coin — last night it was former President George H.W. Bush. And the coin came up tails.


So, during the overtime coin toss, Slater’s head had to be spinning. Was heads really the right call? Is it true that tails never fails? In the ultimate show of consistency and #ThePatriotWay, he called heads and won.


Sunday night featured the first overtime in Super Bowl history, and therefore the first time the NFL’s overtime rules received scrutiny on its largest stage. While the opening coin toss of games means almost nothing, the coin toss in overtime is a major determinant of who wins and who loses. Since 2010, when the NFL reworked its overtime rules for the playoffs, each team has been guaranteed a possession or the opportunity to possess — unless the team that receives the opening kickoff scores a touchdown on its first possession. (The rules were adopted in the regular season in 2012.)


If Atlanta had won the toss, the best offense in the NFL would have gotten the ball with a chance to win the game with a touchdown. Sure, the Falcons farted through most of the second half, but their offense still played a relatively good game and could have succeeded in OT. Matt Ryan finished with over 12 yards per passing attempt, Julio Jones made some of the greatest catches we’ll ever forget, and the running backs rolled. The chances of them mustering a touchdown after an ugly second half were low, but I’d say they were still higher than New England’s chances of scoring four times on four possessions while shutting Atlanta out after playing terribly for 40 minutes — and that happened.


Furthermore, Atlanta’s defense would have gotten time to rest. The Patriots ran the Falcons ragged on a series of long drives at the end of regulation, and when New England won the toss, the Falcons had to put their gassed defense back on the field. The Patriots trampled over them, winning with a walk-off touchdown. The best offense in the NFL? Never got to touch the ball.


Of all the coaches in NFL history, nobody has toyed with the idea that maybe it’s bad to start overtime with the ball more than Belichick has. There have been 12 overtime games when a team has chosen to give the ball away. Eleven were games when weather made field position outweigh possession. Belichick coached one, a 2013 New England win over Denver when the wind helped the Patriots gain great field position for a game-winning field goal.


The 12th was a stranger Belichick game, played on one of the nicest days in the history of New York Decembers. He opted to kick despite the decent weather, and the Jets scored and won on the first drive of OT. It was such a baffling decision that many assumed Slater had messed up in telling the referee the Patriots wanted to kick; when people found out he hadn’t messed up, some assumed Belichick was trying to intentionally lose to give New England a more favorable playoff opponent. While it seems unlikely that Belichick would throw a game after playing his starters for 60 minutes, that explanation made more sense than one of the greatest coaches of all time making a decision that benefited the other team.


Suffice it to say, there is no evidence that backs up the premise that kicking the ball in overtime helps a team win. Since the NFL instituted its new overtime rules, there have been 87 overtime games. Five have been ties, and the team to get the ball first has won 45 of the remaining 82. That’s 54.8 percent, meaning simply winning the coin toss makes a team 9.6 percent more likely to win.


The best alternative would seem to be college football’s OT system, a quickly understandable mini-game based around points. But if you’re looking for a system not influenced by coin tosses, college football isn’t the place. In that system, teams get to choose whether to play on offense first or second. The team that goes second has a massive advantage, knowing how many points it needs to tie or win the game. A study of the first 10 years of college football’s overtime rules found that teams that went second won 54.9 percent of the time. Another study found that teams that start on defense had a 52.1 percent win probability, smaller than the NFL’s but still significant. And this Redditor tabulated that teams going second in overtime had won 331 of 602 overtime games, almost 55 percent. Allowing both teams to touch the ball lends plausible fairness to the game, but it doesn’t make it even.


Earlier this season I wrote that the NFL’s overtime rules don’t make sense, and I stand by that. The rule changes, which did away with sudden death by field goal, made winning the coin toss slightly less important. But the new, modified system rarely changes winners to losers, and it makes ties significantly more likely, even though some NFL players and coaches still don’t know ties exist. Five years after its introduction, the system still requires a lengthy explanation from the ref.


But in the 150 or so years we’ve been playing football, nobody’s really come up with a fair method of determining the winner after a tie in regulation. In 2005 The New York Times reported that a pair of engineers, the Quanbeck brothers, had pitched the league on a system in which one team chose the field position to open overtime and the other team chose whether to play offense or defense from that spot. The Quanbecks have other proposals, based around auction-style systems where teams choose field position or the ball.


The proposals seem fun! They’d add an element of theater and strategy that’s lost in the coin toss. I’m also 100 percent sure the NFL would never seriously consider any of them.


We will likely be stuck with this system, or at least a system based heavily on luck, for quite some time. So let’s find beauty in it. It will lead to desperate defenses fighting to force a field goal; it will lead to strange decisions about whether to play for the tie or the lead; it will lead to ties, the weirdest thing football has to offer. Sunday night, it led to the Patriots putting the perfect capper on the greatest comeback the Super Bowl has ever seen. Anything else would have been an anticlimax.


If we’re being honest, we know it’s unfair that Atlanta didn’t get the ball back for reasons due to a bouncing coin and not football. But if we’re being really honest, we know the team didn’t deserve that ball. The Falcons had so many opportunities to avoid overtime, and crumpled in all of them. It was only fitting that overtime featured them getting trucked off the field and into the history books with the most embarrassing collapse football’s championship game has ever seen. Yes, the coin toss means they were slighted by fate, but their loss was also fueled by their own failure.
 
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Fanatic 00237

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@Fanatic 00237 its like penalties, if the team that scores the first penalty wins.
You got me wrong, I meant like penalties in the sense that both systems are widely viewed as not an ideal method of deciding a winner of an important game, after two good sides have been battling out beautifully over the normal regulation period.
 
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@Eboue or anyone else

What percentage of times has the team receiving the ball in OT gone for a TD

Just wondering
Still think they should both get a chance. Or keep playing 15min ‘quarters’ until there’s a winner
 

ha_rooney

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2 fantastic games... brilliant win by the Pats. The hate from the non-Pats fans :drool:

The OT rules suck but they are what they are. I do hope they change soon, particularly for playoff games.
 

RobinLFC

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College OT rules do indeed look a lot better, yeah.

@Eboue does it happen often that the team which gets possession last goes for 2 if the first team scored a TD+PAT?
 

Beachryan

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Dunno, not all teams are based on offense. If a team can't stop a single drive, knowing the stakes that feels reasonable to me. KC got 3 long third downs, but didn't execute coverage on very obvious receivers. (Brady is going to one of two in those situations, every time)

Dislike Belichick because he's a cheating, snide, poorly dressed slob, but you can't really hate Brady. I mean, his execution when it matters is basically unparalleled in modern sport, outside of maybe a Federer. Also Kraft is besties with Trump, so deal with that Pats fans ;)
 

GloryHunter07

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You got me wrong, I meant like penalties in the sense that both systems are widely viewed as not an ideal method of deciding a winner of an important game, after two good sides have been battling out beautifully over the normal regulation period.
Ah ok, still think penalties are better!
 

MrMarcello

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Defo impressive for Brady to get to another superbowl
But he was not good and hugely benefits from a GOAT coach and system
And a well built franchise


Not that it takes away from his own status but it defo helps him. But fair play to him for still going
Are you trying to downplay how great Brady has been in his career? He's the best at that position ever. It's no longer a debate.

30-46, 348, 1-2 (one bad turnover in the end zone and the other a tipped pass by his receiver). Barring the two turnovers that's a fantastic statistical performance, and when it mattered most, i.e. with 2:00 remaining and season on the line, he was once again GOAT-worthy.
 

Sylar

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Are you trying to downplay how great Brady has been in his career? He's the best at that position ever. It's no longer a debate.

30-46, 348, 1-2 (one bad turnover in the end zone and the other a tipped pass by his receiver). Barring the two turnovers that's a fantastic statistical performance, and when it mattered most, i.e. with 2:00 remaining and season on the line, he was once again GOAT-worthy.
I'm saying his performance last night wasn't great but having a well run franchise certainly helped him get to another superbowl


He's not been the best QB for the last few seasons but my point is he doesn't need to be. I'm jealous that Rodgers doesn't have the same type of set up
 

MrMarcello

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@Eboue or anyone else

What percentage of times has the team receiving the ball in OT gone for a TD

Just wondering
Still think they should both get a chance. Or keep playing 15min ‘quarters’ until there’s a winner
It's in the ringer.com link in post 7481 above. As of Jan 2017, it was 55-45% to the coin toss winner since the NFL adopted the new rules in 2012. Historically, I believe it's been around 52-48 to the coin toss winner, practically 50-50.

I also don't agree with the 10-minute change though that only applies to regular season games.
 
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It's in the ringer.com link in post 7481 above. As of Jan 2017, it was 55-45% to the coin toss winner since the NFL adopted the new rules in 2012. Historically, I believe it's been around 52-48 to the coin toss winner, practically 50-50.

I also don't agree with the 10-minute change though that only applies to regular season games.
Thanks. But that’s not what I asked.
Was wondering what % of those opening OT drives went for a TD, not if the team who won the coin toss won
 

MrMarcello

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I'm saying his performance last night wasn't great but having a well run franchise certainly helped him get to another superbowl


He's not been the best QB for the last few seasons but my point is he doesn't need to be. I'm jealous that Rodgers doesn't have the same type of set up
I'm sure most fans wish their team had a setup under Kraft/Management/Belichick. I wish Dallas had retained Jimmy in 1994, and I wish they had put great pieces around Romo in 2007 going forward versus pushing Parcells out. I'm certain Dolphins fans wish they had more put around Marino in the 80s/90s, same for just about any top tier QB that couldn't quite get over that mountain every season.
 

Eboue

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College OT rules do indeed look a lot better, yeah.

@Eboue does it happen often that the team which gets possession last goes for 2 if the first team scored a TD+PAT?
every once in a while. but mostly they kick to extend the game until the 3rd overtime when by rule the have to start going for two from then on
 

MrMarcello

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Thanks. But that’s not what I asked.
Was wondering what % of those opening OT drives went for a TD, not if the team who won the coin toss won
Misread the post. There was a hyperlink in the same link above that mentioned a study on opening drives/second drives but the link is dead.

Here's a short google search that brings up an article from 2014 but slightly outdated. Someone would need to crunch numbers for the past 4-5 seasons to get an updated number.

http://harvardsportsanalysis.org/2014/01/modeling-nfl-overtime-as-a-markov-chain/
After a kickoff, drives end with the following frequencies (all stats from www.pro-football-reference.com):

Defensive TD: .020

Safety: .001

No Score: .661

FG: .118

TD: .200
 

Skåre Willoch

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I'm saying his performance last night wasn't great but having a well run franchise certainly helped him get to another superbowl


He's not been the best QB for the last few seasons but my point is he doesn't need to be. I'm jealous that Rodgers doesn't have the same type of set up
Brady is the system.
 

lsd

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Are you trying to downplay how great Brady has been in his career? He's the best at that position ever. It's no longer a debate.

30-46, 348, 1-2 (one bad turnover in the end zone and the other a tipped pass by his receiver). Barring the two turnovers that's a fantastic statistical performance, and when it mattered most, i.e. with 2:00 remaining and season on the line, he was once again GOAT-worthy.

Nowhere near Rodgers even by his own admission and that was with cheating by deflating the balls,
 

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Nowhere near Rodgers even by his own admission and that was with cheating by deflating the balls,
QBs that don't have the SuperBowls typically get penalized during these debates. Rodgers has the best rating ever which is great, but he doesn't have enough rings to show for it. You need a combination of both success and a strong stat record.
 

lsd

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QBs that don't have the SuperBowls typically get penalized during these debates. Rodgers has the best rating ever which is great, but he doesn't have enough rings to show for it. You need a combination of both success and a strong stat record.

I know but I hate the guy but I love watching him and in my opinion he is by far the best QB I have seen .
 

cesc's_mullet

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Are you trying to downplay how great Brady has been in his career? He's the best at that position ever. It's no longer a debate.

30-46, 348, 1-2 (one bad turnover in the end zone and the other a tipped pass by his receiver). Barring the two turnovers that's a fantastic statistical performance, and when it mattered most, i.e. with 2:00 remaining and season on the line, he was once again GOAT-worthy.
It should have been 3 TO's with that overhit throw to Gronk, which would have cost them the game. The Kansas defender who was offside lost the match.

Had that occurred the post-game narrative would have been entirely different, obviously. Instead of praise he'd have been criticized.
 

cesc's_mullet

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Brady didn't get sacked once, and this was against the best QB rushing defense in the league. Meanwhile Mahomes was sacked multiple times and his blocking line was paper thin. Belichek put on a clinic in that first half.
 

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Brady didn't get sacked once, and this was against the best QB rushing defense in the league. Meanwhile Mahomes was sacked multiple times and his blocking line was paper thin. Belichek put on a clinic in that first half.
And Brady‘s ability to quickly get rid of the ball, is a huge part of this.
 

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Brady didn't get sacked once, and this was against the best QB rushing defense in the league. Meanwhile Mahomes was sacked multiple times and his blocking line was paper thin. Belichek put on a clinic in that first half.
Which is true, but then people don’t equally go and comment on what Brady did do. People look for every reason to downplay Brady, which is fine, whatever.
 

cesc's_mullet

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Which is true, but then people don’t equally go and comment on what Brady did do. People look for every reason to downplay Brady, which is fine, whatever.
He's got the GOAT record which can never be taken away from him. But if that Kansas defender was standing a literally a few inches back then Brady has 1TD/3TO's and is going home.
 

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Brady was great. Mahomes was better, but the pats D was better than the Chiefs and the game was decided by a coin toss

For once though, at least it wasn't Andy Reid's fault
 

Skåre Willoch

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It's all ifs and buts.

If Brady had a deep threat, then what? If the Pats lost the coin toss, then what? If the Kansas player didn't get caught offside, then what? If the Chiefs were caught with 12 men on the field, then what? If Gronk was as healthy as his prime days, then what? If the Pats converted on 4th-and-inches late in the game, then what?

You can keep going like that forever.

It's like the Spurs - United game. "If you didn't have De Gea..." or "If the Spurs only shot better..."

You can't keep going on about ifs and buts when a team keeps reaching the Super Bowl more often than not. It's not always luck, bad calls or horrible OT rules. It's consistency and making the best of what you have. Every year. Every game. Every play.
 

cesc's_mullet

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I find it strange that they will give the QB passing yards for the distance run by the receivers after they've caught the ball. You could throw it 1 yard and run it 50, and the QB will get 51 yards to his stats.
 

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Surprised by how many here are bringing up the current OT setup. Much bigger issue/travesty for me yesterday was the Saints getting screwed on the non pass interference call. NFL needs to fix that shit.
 

cesc's_mullet

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It's all ifs and buts.

If Brady had a deep threat, then what? If the Pats lost the coin toss, then what? If the Kansas player didn't get caught offside, then what? If the Chiefs were caught with 12 men on the field, then what? If Gronk was as healthy as his prime days, then what? If the Pats converted on 4th-and-inches late in the game, then what?

You can keep going like that forever.

It's like the Spurs - United game. "If you didn't have De Gea..." or "If the Spurs only shot better..."

You can't keep going on about ifs and buts when a team keeps reaching the Super Bowl more often than not. It's not always luck, bad calls or horrible OT rules. It's consistency and making the best of what you have. Every year. Every game. Every play.
If United were bundled out of the CL Semi Finals after OT, where it went to penalties but the first penalty scored wins, then you'd rightfully be up in arms too.
 

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Surprised by how many here are bringing up the current OT setup. Much bigger issue/travesty for me yesterday was the Saints getting screwed on the non pass interference call. NFL needs to fix that shit.
Everyone was saying that was a bullshit call, but that's a problem with the officials making a mistake, not a problem with a bullshit rule that everyone has been rightly calling unfair for years.

Also they're not mutually exclusive.
 

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If United were bundled out of the CL Semi Finals after OT, where it went to penalties but the first penalty scored wins, then you'd rightfully be up in arms too.
Not a fair comparison. Those are the rules in OT. They’re nothing new.

We had golden goal but it was rubbish so it was stopped.
 

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I find it strange that they will give the QB passing yards for the distance run by the receivers after they've caught the ball. You could throw it 1 yard and run it 50, and the QB will get 51 yards to his stats.
But if there are two open receivers, WR1 is likely to get tackled upon reception and WR2 doesn't have anybody likely to tackle him upon reception, and the QB picks the better option it surely makes sense.

I appreciate there are cases where its simply a brilliant play after the reception by the receiver for the YAC, but thats my guess as to why
 

cesc's_mullet

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Not a fair comparison. Those are the rules in OT. They’re nothing new.

We had golden goal but it was rubbish so it was stopped.
Golden goal is much fairer given the chances of scoring from kick-off are minute.

It is a fair comparison to make. One team gets the ball after a coin toss, they score then they win, if they don't then the other team gets a chance.
 

cesc's_mullet

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But if there are two open receivers, WR1 is likely to get tackled upon reception and WR2 doesn't have anybody likely to tackle him upon reception, and the QB picks the better option it surely makes sense.

I appreciate there are cases where its simply a brilliant play after the reception by the receiver for the YAC, but thats my guess as to why
IMO they should have both 'total yards (throw + run)' and just throwing yards.
 

Skåre Willoch

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If United were bundled out of the CL Semi Finals after OT, where it went to penalties but the first penalty scored wins, then you'd rightfully be up in arms too.
Please keep comparing gaining 75 yards and scoring a touchdown to shooting a penalty. It's almost the same thing. They should just give the win to the winner of the coin toss, really.

Fact is that only 17% of OT games are decided by a TD on the first possession. That's an 83% chance it's not decided by a TD on the first possession.

I'm all for changing the rules. The rules are stupid. The rules have to change. Just like i believe that away goals is a stupid rule in the CL, and has to change. A goal is a goal, no? But those are the rules yesterday, today and tomorrow. Remember when the Pats beat the Broncos in OT after kicking to start the OT? Same rules, with a very different twist to it.
 

Berbaclass

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Golden goal is much fairer given the chances of scoring from kick-off are minute.

It is a fair comparison to make. One team gets the ball after a coin toss, they score then they win, if they don't then the other team gets a chance.
I’m not sure, we saw both sides of it yesterday in either game. I personally don’t think it’s fair that the second team only has to get within field goal range to potentially win. If it was first touchdown wins then I think that’s better.
 

RobinLFC

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I’m not sure, we saw both sides of it yesterday in either game. I personally don’t think it’s fair that the second team only has to get within field goal range to potentially win. If it was first touchdown wins then I think that’s better.
The first team only has to get within field goal range to potentially win as well.