Not good enough on the ball to start for coachs like Guardiola, Klopp, Poch', Sarri and Emery.
Chris Smalling - does he start at any other top 6 team?
- Thread starter Reiver
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Smalling would get into all of those teams except for city. I cannot believe the stick he gets on here. Some poster saying he's overrated. C'mon ffs!
Lindelöf's postive form curve and development is largely down to Smalling. He's been like a rock in that defence every time he's played with Lindelöf. In the beginning when Lindelöf was shaky he was covering for him in a number of instances and he helped him through that difficult period. Now we're seeing a much more confident and stable Lindelöf and much of that as I said is down to Smalling. Time the lad got the credit he's due!
Lindelöf's postive form curve and development is largely down to Smalling. He's been like a rock in that defence every time he's played with Lindelöf. In the beginning when Lindelöf was shaky he was covering for him in a number of instances and he helped him through that difficult period. Now we're seeing a much more confident and stable Lindelöf and much of that as I said is down to Smalling. Time the lad got the credit he's due!
This is just not true at all. Before Jose left, lindelof had already stepped up his performances and I believe Smalling was injured at the time. Our first choice pairing for the first half of Ole's tenure here was Lindelof and Jones. Check his thread for these games, he was already getting rave reviews for his performances in these games.
Granted our defence has become stronger with Smalling replacing Jones but we've already established Jones is nowhere good enough to be a starter.
10-15 years ago Rio Ferdinand was approaching his prime.
What a description.
Yep, him being injured while Lindelof was starting with Jones really helped Lindelof.
Lindelof has started almost every game this season, and even under Mourinho he was improving. When Ole became manager, he was starting with Jones (and Bailly against PSG) and he was getting praised as much as he is now. He even got nominated for player of the month while being partnered with Jones.
Weird. I really don't see how Smalling should get the credit for Lindelöf improving when he wasn't even playing alongside him. That's not a slight on Smalling or anything.
What about Southgate? LVG had to use what he had at his disposal. A possession manager doesn't buy Smalling if he isn't already at the club
Nothing! I think he is a fine starter for United.
2 things defenders at City do well, that Smalling would have to learn:
1. Keep/pass the ball while being pressed
2. Split the lines when the midfield is being pressed/marked. (I've seen them provide assists or the assist to the assist pass from deep)
I think he would be fine immediately with other aspects, like holding a high line, or being dominant at set pieces (City surprisingly are very good at this already).
Hard things to learn though. Not everyone can be as good at passing like your favorite player Ramos
.But yes, his defending isn't worse than City's players. It is just that them are so much better at playing football.
High line shouldn't be a problem for Smalling. He is quite fast, actually I think that he is faster than any of City's CBs.
Who gives a shit what Southgate did. We played garbage football at the World Cup and got owned every time we came across good opposition. We were set piece kings and that got us through the Tournament along with a very, very easy fixture list. Southgate makes decent choices about the players he picks but lets not pretend that we played good football at the World Cup because we really didn't.
You were trying to convince everyone that you (England) were great during the world cup to be fair.
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I'm not so sure. His recovery pace is fine but he likes to sit off and have a full view of whats happening and where runs are coming from. Playing a high line means he will have to read movement better than he does now, he wont have the same amount of time to react and recover.Hard things to learn though. Not everyone can be as good at passing like your favorite player Ramos
But yes, his defending isn't worse than City's players. It is just that them are so much better at playing football.
High line shouldn't be a problem for Smalling. He is quite fast, actually I think that he is faster than any of City's CBs.
This is what I wrote at the time. I stand by it, we were organised and that allowed us to get through the easy fixtures which we did well. But we were outclassed when we came across Croatia and Belgium. We struggled to create chances from open play but did brilliantly at set pieces. I don't think I ever said we were brilliant, simply that we had a very good fixture list and that's why I was optimistic, I mean if we couldn't beat Colombia and Sweden then England may as well have retired from International football.
I did fancy us against Croatia to be fair, but I think from reading back that was because I assumed they'd be more fatigued than England and we'd capitalise on it. We didn't, we choked. Still, I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I don't think we scored many goals from open play? So given Southgate didn't take Smalling because he wanted to build from the back (fair) it didn't really work out that well did it? In fact you could argue that having Smalling who's actually very good at set pieces could have been a useful option.
Nah, come on. That's utter bollocks. Of course we'd be favourites against Colombia with or without James.
They're not footballing kings all of a sudden. They drew 0-0 against Egypt and Australia in the pre tournament friendlies and struggled (albeit due to the daft sending off in the Japan match) in their group. Nothing to fear from Colombia at all.
Switzerland/Sweden are well organised teams but both should struggle to break us down and we have enough quality in the final third to cause them problems. Neither of them impressed in the group stages, Sweden showed decent resilence against Germany but were let down by poor quality subs. Switzerland are a good team but nothing more than that and certainly not in the calibre of Croatia/Spain.
I'm very optimistic and if you read any of my posts about England since I joined this forum you'd know i'm normally an England grump. I've hated watching us for the past 20 odd years and normally critise the entire setup. It feels weird being this optimistic.
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The opinions of managers actually matter if we're to guess whether he would play for those clubs or not. The question isn't whether we would start Smalling if we were the manager at the other top 6 clubs. Managers who empasise technical ability from their CBs aren't likely to go for Smalling if they had the choice
Smalling keeps the ball while being pressed at United so no difference. But yes the 2nd part is where Smalling would have to improve, but who hasnt improved at that under Guardiola?
You're assuming all Managers think like Southgate though.
The problem with Smalling is that he's as good as the player you partner him with.So he could probably do well in teams with a world class cb.
Im not a fan of Young. He should be a dressing room DJ and that is all. He does leave the right side exposed. However, Smalling is not vocal enough. Lindelof is younger, from a different league and he leads better. Did you see him pushing Fred forward? How often does Smalling do that? If Smalling had come through an academy he could've been a world class CB. Sadly he didnt, he lacks positional sense off the ball, passing technique is poor and he pulls shirts too much.
Why the hell do people keep bringing up England and the world cup? Yes England did amazing, beyond expectations. But, these amazing ball playing defenders, when they actually came up against quality sides were hardly scintillating and in actually were disaster waiting to happen when pressed. And for getting as far as they did, they were undone because the amazing John Stones, ball playing extraordinaire, lets Mandzukic get behind him and score the winner. Southgate wants to stay with this idea of playing out the back at the expense of having defenders that can actually defend and that's his prerogative and that is why Smalling doesn't get in his side.
For us though, it's a completely different kettle of fish. Watch us play and none of our defenders are being asked to be a Carrick in the body of a CB. First and foremost, OGS has been working on getting that strong base and now with Smalling and Lindelof, Matic, Herrera he is getting that. When it comes to playing out the back, Lindelof is not doing anything special compared to Smalling, both keep it somewhat simple, getting up field when there is an opening or the occasional ball through the lines otherwise it's give it to the FB or more forward player dropping to collect. This is not because Smalling is playing, it's just how we are setup with him or without.
As far VAR, that argument is just so ridiculous. It's not like VAR has not been used for a while now in multiple leagues and it's not like in those leagues there is not a large amount of shirt grabbing and such going on but, where are the stories of a penalty or 5 every game? Or is it that only Smalling in the whole world of football that does shirt grabbing? Even if it comes to pass where the Premier League is the one league that will pull up for every shirt grab, well then Smalling is likely to win his fair share of penalties seeing as he is out biggest threat in opposition boxes.
I get that Smalling is never going to be considered one of the best of his generation and as his detractors point out, he continues to play because pretty much everyone else that comes through is just a worse option. That in itself tells you that he is just a high quality CB that can be relied on. The fact that it is actually debatable outside of VVD, if he could supplant any of the other CB just tells you that right now out there, there are not many CB that are so much better than him that we need to spend 80-90 mil on that will make us that much better. When one comes along, sure go get him but, going and getting someone just because well Smalling makes someone nervous because of VAR or that is just not good enough on the ball to play this beautiful football in their own heads is not reason enough.
For us though, it's a completely different kettle of fish. Watch us play and none of our defenders are being asked to be a Carrick in the body of a CB. First and foremost, OGS has been working on getting that strong base and now with Smalling and Lindelof, Matic, Herrera he is getting that. When it comes to playing out the back, Lindelof is not doing anything special compared to Smalling, both keep it somewhat simple, getting up field when there is an opening or the occasional ball through the lines otherwise it's give it to the FB or more forward player dropping to collect. This is not because Smalling is playing, it's just how we are setup with him or without.
As far VAR, that argument is just so ridiculous. It's not like VAR has not been used for a while now in multiple leagues and it's not like in those leagues there is not a large amount of shirt grabbing and such going on but, where are the stories of a penalty or 5 every game? Or is it that only Smalling in the whole world of football that does shirt grabbing? Even if it comes to pass where the Premier League is the one league that will pull up for every shirt grab, well then Smalling is likely to win his fair share of penalties seeing as he is out biggest threat in opposition boxes.
I get that Smalling is never going to be considered one of the best of his generation and as his detractors point out, he continues to play because pretty much everyone else that comes through is just a worse option. That in itself tells you that he is just a high quality CB that can be relied on. The fact that it is actually debatable outside of VVD, if he could supplant any of the other CB just tells you that right now out there, there are not many CB that are so much better than him that we need to spend 80-90 mil on that will make us that much better. When one comes along, sure go get him but, going and getting someone just because well Smalling makes someone nervous because of VAR or that is just not good enough on the ball to play this beautiful football in their own heads is not reason enough.
Unfotunately smalling does not improve on the basics. He was non league before fulham and not long after, utd bought him. He still lacks the basics.
He cannot pass a ball for one. The body shapes he throws are way off. Very very awkward.
He is not defensively as good as he should be. His positional play is poor at best.
He can tackle and he can head a ball and thats all i can give him.
Better than stones, laporte, kompany, otamendi ? No
Better than VVD or gomez? No
Better than sanchez, vertonghan, alderweirald? No
Better than christensen, david luiz, rudiger? No
He would get in the arsenal side and thats it. And does anybody consider them a top tesm anymore? No
Says it all really
He cannot pass a ball for one. The body shapes he throws are way off. Very very awkward.
He is not defensively as good as he should be. His positional play is poor at best.
He can tackle and he can head a ball and thats all i can give him.
Better than stones, laporte, kompany, otamendi ? No
Better than VVD or gomez? No
Better than sanchez, vertonghan, alderweirald? No
Better than christensen, david luiz, rudiger? No
He would get in the arsenal side and thats it. And does anybody consider them a top tesm anymore? No
Says it all really
I dont think screaming at a new player finding it hard to adjust to the league is leadership. Thats the last thing Fred needs, and Lindelof should be the last person throwing stones in a glass house when he had 2 difficult starts the season in his first 2 seasons. Should Jones shout at Lindelof if Lindelof is a few steps further back than is ideal? Would that be the leadership you want to see?
Leadership is more like Ander with Sanchez. Building him up in interviews, giving him credit when he comes into a hard working performance and continues the hard work. The celebration at the end of the match where Ander is genuinely giving him credit, not just saying it for the camera. Thats leadership
Tearing people down isnt leadership. Building them up is.
If Lindelof just normally told him get a few steps forward and cut out the animated frustrated gesture burying him and then when Fred went further forward Lindelof was clapping and displaying positively then sure. I can see that as leadership. What Lindelof did was more like Mourinho on the touchline with his frustrated gestures like "look at what i have to deal with" when Rashford missed a chance up front, then had the interview after the match saying "See, thats why Lukaku always plays"
Thats toxic negativity. Not real leadership
4:46 Doesn't look that awkward to me. Looks more like a chance he created, from a pass he made, after stepping into midfield. Displaying numerous qualities only a fool would think a non-league 'lacking-the-basics' type of player could do. There is another clip of him adjusting his body position to protect the ball before he makes a simple pass, in that clip he looks really awkward. Probably a good time to bring that one back up to keep up the facade?
Yea, he really cannot pass a ball for two.
It's very subjective really....I'm by no means Smalling's biggest fan but I would say there is only really Virgil van Dijk who you could say is a clear level above
Kompany would also have been in that category but is getting on now...Laporte also looks a good player but I've not seen loads of him
The rest.....Davison Sanchez, John Stones, David Luiz, Antonio Rudiger, Laurent Koscielny, Mustafi, Matip, Lovren etc.....may be better for periods or have abilities Smalling doesn't have but you wouldn't say they were on another footballing level altogether
This is part of the problem with comparing like-for-like....I think more and more it's difficult in the modern game for all but the most talented players to really standout above the rest
Kompany would also have been in that category but is getting on now...Laporte also looks a good player but I've not seen loads of him
The rest.....Davison Sanchez, John Stones, David Luiz, Antonio Rudiger, Laurent Koscielny, Mustafi, Matip, Lovren etc.....may be better for periods or have abilities Smalling doesn't have but you wouldn't say they were on another footballing level altogether
This is part of the problem with comparing like-for-like....I think more and more it's difficult in the modern game for all but the most talented players to really standout above the rest
Van Gaal who is another manager who wants players to be technical started both seasons with Smalling in bench. Smalling eventually became first choice, but it just shows that the manager didn't trust him and only after the other options failed, he started Smalling. If we had Lindelof back then, it is likely that Smalling wouldn't have become first choice under LVG.
Under Fergie I don't think that he ever became first choice even when the main duo starter regressing (it was Evans who was starting more in Fergie's final seasons).
So you think Van Gaal was a manager who doesnt emphasize technical ability?
Can you explain why Blind was playing at CB? Why Tyler Blackett got games when we had better young players for the position?
Not sure where you read this. Read the post again. A subsequent sentence isn't always a contrasting one
Regardless, the evidence we have is that the manager we had that does emphasize technical ability in the backline and not only that, but is particular about which foot they use too, used Smalling a lot and Smalling had his best season under him.
Next to him we picked a left footed, more composed and technical passer.
Why? Because its not about 1 player. Its about the partnership. Smalling made up for the things Blind lacked and vice versa. And together they ended up a fairly good partnership before Mourinho came in
For me he'd stroll into Arsenal but I don't think he'd start anywhere else. A good CB who has all the necessary physical attributes and is dependable but not someone I'd consider elite level.
I personally would prefer him over someone like Luiz or Stones but their managers are have a possession obsession and so he's got no chance. The other CBs (VVD, Alderweireld, Kompany, Vertonghen etc) are all just better.
I personally would prefer him over someone like Luiz or Stones but their managers are have a possession obsession and so he's got no chance. The other CBs (VVD, Alderweireld, Kompany, Vertonghen etc) are all just better.
Read as much of the thread I could. My thoughts as a new member:
1. Smalling has comfortably been our best defender for years.
2. He'd start for any of the top 6 teams, including City's because they rotate.
3. Read that he was 'gangly' and moves awkwardly. He was clocked as the fastest Man United player and one of the fastest in the league in 17/18. An attribute that is invaluable.
4. Read that he was 'gangly' and passes awkwardly. Yeah, I mean he can look awkward, but his passing is perfectly fine. Why is this such a debate anyway? Why on earth do we need this guy to be Xavi? He's not much worse than Lindelof on the ball, and the latter can do the build IF needed. But when is it ever really needed?
5. He's our only defender who's a menace in the oppositon box. Having a defender who can get you 4 odd goals a season is priceless, and it's not only the goals, it's the presence in there. Wouldn't you take that over a defender that looks like he can pass it better to Ashley Young or Herrera or whoever.
It's 5 o'clock and I'm finished work here so I may leave it there. I love Lindelof but he isn't on Smalling's level ATM at the back. I wouldn't even worry about VAR. And also, going on to champion Gareth Southgate as the barometer of Smalling's talents is one of the more ridiculous things I'll read on these boards.
1. Smalling has comfortably been our best defender for years.
2. He'd start for any of the top 6 teams, including City's because they rotate.
3. Read that he was 'gangly' and moves awkwardly. He was clocked as the fastest Man United player and one of the fastest in the league in 17/18. An attribute that is invaluable.
4. Read that he was 'gangly' and passes awkwardly. Yeah, I mean he can look awkward, but his passing is perfectly fine. Why is this such a debate anyway? Why on earth do we need this guy to be Xavi? He's not much worse than Lindelof on the ball, and the latter can do the build IF needed. But when is it ever really needed?
5. He's our only defender who's a menace in the oppositon box. Having a defender who can get you 4 odd goals a season is priceless, and it's not only the goals, it's the presence in there. Wouldn't you take that over a defender that looks like he can pass it better to Ashley Young or Herrera or whoever.
It's 5 o'clock and I'm finished work here so I may leave it there. I love Lindelof but he isn't on Smalling's level ATM at the back. I wouldn't even worry about VAR. And also, going on to champion Gareth Southgate as the barometer of Smalling's talents is one of the more ridiculous things I'll read on these boards.
That’s the point of this thread isn’t it?
If Smalling already at the club (Liverpool or Chelsea or Arsenal and etc), a possession manager like Klopp, Sarri, Emery would start him ahead of Matip, Rudiger/Luiz & Koscielny/Mustafi.
He is almost 30 and has been here almost 9 years opinions on him should not fluctuate this much.
No this wasn't a preset condition in the OP but we can agree that if he's already at the club the manager will use him. I'm sure if Southgate was our manager he wouldn't have much of a choice either but we saw what happened when he did have a choice. Notice all of my posts emphasise "if they had the choice"
Actually, at the end of Mourinho's first season, they were starting for us (including the final of Europa) and played quite well. It has easily been our best partnership since Fergie retired, but for whatever reasons Mourinho didn't continue with it on his second season and then sold Blind.
While both players had weaknesses, the biggest strengths of Blind corresponded to the biggest weakness of Smalling and vice versa making it a formidable partnership. We can likely expect something similar with Lindelof and Smalling (with Lindelof not having Blind's weaknesses), though if we get the chance of an upgrade in Mike we should do it. If we get someone as good as him at defending, plus better at playing then get that player. Hoping for either De Ligt or Koulibaly in the summer, and then whoever plays better from Mike and Lindelof to partner that player.
I think a lot of people believe these days that football has dramatically changed and that all centre back have to be like prime Scholes on the ball. It seems to be the case but without any actual evidence for it other than everyone wanting to play like City. Morgan and Huth won the league a couple of seasons back, before that Cahill and Terry.
If you looked at our best results over the last few years i wold guess that Smalling has been involved in more than any other player bar De Gea. No one would have been talking about 'ball playing abilities' of our CBs during these victories. He was even right back when we beat Arsenal 8-2.
If you looked at our best results over the last few years i wold guess that Smalling has been involved in more than any other player bar De Gea. No one would have been talking about 'ball playing abilities' of our CBs during these victories. He was even right back when we beat Arsenal 8-2.
Leicester were an aberration and Terry was fantastic on the ball.
Smallings inability to pass is overstated. He may not be able to pass the ball to the striker - but he can to the midfielders.
Robson/Keane are regarded as some of our greatest leaders. Neville, Ferdinand, Vidic and Schmeichel are all regarded as our greatest leaders. So I think all of the above prove what real leadership is.
When did they shout at players who just joined the club?