This just miiight have something to do with them not having dual citizenship.
Shamima Begum, IS teen wants to come back to the UK
- Thread starter Tommy
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
they have the same number of nationalities as shamima begum, british born women who are biritsh
Did they try to get back into the country in the same high profile way that she has? My bet is if she had just come back, nothing would have been said like it is for many others. Was she used as a political tool? Yup. Was it because she was brown? I dont see it.
That’s not what I asked.
Shamima has the option of Bangladeshi citizenship.
What about Samantha and Sally Ann?
Let's not muddy the waters here, this isn't a primarily racist issue. Merely subtext, the distinction is important.
lolz @ what @Carolina Red asked. Rich.
lolz @ what @Carolina Red asked. Rich.
Well no because Shamima is a particularly stupid and incompetent Jihadi wife. As I said Sam is wanted for arrest in the UK so if she tried to come back is the home office suddenly going to say "actually, we don't want to put you in prison anymore?"
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I’ll take that as a “no” then.Let's not muddy the waters here, this isn't a primarily racist issue. Merely subtext, the distinction is important.
lolz @ what @Carolina Red asked. Rich.
C'mon man, if you make me reply to every stupid thing you say it's no good for the progress of this thread. Stop being an attention seeking selfish dude.
You tagged me...
I don't give a shit what you asked because I'm not a child who is forced to sit in your military worship classes
read the interaction with the previous poster and if that's a real question
Citizenship or not she wouldn't have gotten out of that camp any time soon, so the baby was going to die whatever happened. Has her citizenship even technically been stripped yet given the appeal?
She's in a refugee camp in a war zone with no chance of getting back in the short term, and obviously no one was going to advocate sending British personnel into Syria to bring her back.
She's in a refugee camp in a war zone with no chance of getting back in the short term, and obviously no one was going to advocate sending British personnel into Syria to bring her back.
Because it's rude to mention someone without tagging them? Courtesy and that
So once again, I’m gonna take that as a “no”.
So in reality, whiteness has nothing to do with it.
Good talk.
Seems a pretty fair assessment.
Do we have any examples of white women/girls that are on the same level as Shamima? Women who are wanted in connection with actual acts of terror seem to be a bit above the level of Shamima. The white widows(One of whom is dead I believe) were quite active in plotting and recruiting. They were/are gold star targets for prosecution, "wins" for the politicians to wave at the angry mob come election time. Si is there any like for like examples of white women being treated differently than non white?
There just flat out aren't many examples to begin with with. Relatively few women have gone to join ISIS/assorted terror groups from Britain so we're left comparing wildly different cases, from middle aged women who actively help plot attacks/recruit/do admin etc. to teenage girls who went over and effectively became broodmares or concubines. But the language used is different and has a racial component (as I mentioned).
She didn't need somewhere to stay. Her family would have proviced that. The issue was that the Government wouldn't let her and her baby in in the first place.
Isn't she dangerous?
I struggle to see where this is a race issue though...Conveniently cut off where i explained why i'd rather not converse
If a white girl went off aged 15 to join a radical terrorist organisation, mothered children to the members of such organisation then wanted to return when it all went tits up then I'd have the same attitude that she shouldn't get anywhere near the UK.
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Shame the innocent baby died instead of her.
Neither does Begum. She was born in the UK, has spent her entire life in the UK and as far as I'm aware, has never been to Bangladesh.
Listen, I've said in the thread already what I think of her and how ridiculous she is. However, I always felt incredibly uncomfortable with the idea of revoking her citizenship. Even moving away from the morality of essentially making someone stateless, despite what Javid tries to claim, it does create a tiered citizenship system, despite what people said. Citizenship should not be conditional. And some people will say well actually yes it should be and if we give it to someone who comes to the country and commits horrible crimes, then it should be revoked.
Well ok but she didn't come to the country. She was born here, technically just as British as John or Sally. So what are we saying? Ignore the brown for a second, maybe we'd have done the same if it was Giovanni, who was born here, never been to Italy but who's parents are from there. But I would find that equally wrong.
It suggests that these people are less British than others. It probably suggests that I am even less British than these people and creates a tiered system.
Ah yes, apologies, I thought you meant in the last page or so.
He and a few others have certainly made some pretty disgusting comments and I'm sure social media in general is awash with horrible comments.
so just because her parents were born abroad she is less of a citizen than "samantha or Sally ann"There's no hysterics. People have been saying that Javid has blood on his hands.
I would say that Begum has blood on her hands but what I'm asking is what exactly do people think Javid should have done to bring her back in rapid time? Her baby was born..what, 2-3 weeks ago? And she's in a camp on the Syrian/Iraqi border. She popped up suddenly 2 weeks ago asking to be allowed back and she and her husband are in different SDF controlled camps. The SDF are currently running these camps/prisons/ processing thousands of people streaming out and making sure IS operatives aren't going out to cause havoc and planning for the final assault. So the individual case of Begum is probably not a priority.
So my point, perhaps slightly overstated but still valid, is how does Javid have blood on his hands? Even if he hadn't said the stuff about the citizenship, how would we have gotten Begum back here in the past 2 weeks in what is essentially still a warzone? Without military support if she wasn't going to be making the journey herself?
I hope you’re saying this in as a jest. It’s not for any government to decide who can or can’t reproduce. That’s basic human rights.
Agreed (though I believe the US have revoked the citizenship of a female who wants to go back). I've been quite steadfast ins saying she should be allowed back and prosecuted and she shouldn't have had her citizenship revoked. She is not Syria's problem.
She definitely doesn't seem the sharpest tool in the box.
I am also wholly against the removal of agency from these people. I've seen a few comments along the lines of 'lots of Muslims went to join, they didn't know what they were getting themselves into and they saw Baghdadi call for Muslims to build the state and that is obviously what they want to do'.
Really? This isn't like seeing an advert for a local restaurant and deciding to try it out before realising its shit. This is deciding to move from, in this case let's say Europe, to Syria, an active warzone. Many of these people, like Begum, did so behind their family's back, knowing that they would disapprove of what they were doing. The ISIS atrocities were pretty forefront in the media from the beginning. Some chose not to believe it, even though it featured in their own propaganda, for some reason. It wasn't exactly spur of the moment decision. They had to fly to Turkey, make a long overland journey and then illegally cross into a country, often with the help of ISIS operatives, who they have been talking to for a while before going.
Many of them still fail to show contrition or come up with nonsensical stories about what they were doing there (seems only the local Arabs have been fighting, with how many laypeople they've managed to flush out recently).
She’s incredibly dangerous. Honestly it’s surprising how many naive people there is in this thread.
You've interrogated her then? You've assessed her skill levels in terrorism 101, her ability to proselytize - convert . Tell her story as a highly successful wife and mother - 3 Husbands, 3 dead babies etc etc? I mean, you've got facts?
I'm not sure I've seen yet anyone on here come out and say that she doesn't need to face justice, for my part, British justice. Rehabilitation if possible, Assessment, monitoring by the experts/secret service etc but please point it out to me who these naive people are.
Out of 400 jihadi's who have returned to the UK the Home Secretary has assured Parliament that only 15% pose further concern. Are we sure we can categorise this 19 year old teenage failure as 'further concern'?
Because the Mum should take no responsibility for getting pregnant multiple times in a war zone
I've been pretty harsh about those people who've gone to Syria so can agree with the second paragraph. All I'm saying is Javid instead of playing politics should have said it's her responsibility to get out of there and once back she would be dealt with.
It also doesn't send out the.best message to those who are born in Britain but have ancestry elsewhere that they aren't really 100% British. End of the day she's a UK citizen who was radicalised in the UK so why the feck should she go to Bangladesh.
Completely agree with the 1st paragraph and could not agree with the 2nd one. I said as much in my response to swansontache. That despite what people may want to say, it creates clear tiers to citizenship, a system where I am probably even lower than the likes of Begum seeing as I wasn't even born in this country.
So my children are less British than John? And Emily? Even though they were born here and have spent their entire lives here? Good to know.
That's what I was trying to say in my second paragraph, maybe I wasn't clear enough. I'm in a similar position where I was born in the UK but parents were elsewhere, although unlikely if the GOV really wanted they could strip me of citizenship, the precedent has been set.
Sorry, I wasn't disagreeing with you, I was completely agreeing.
Like you, I don't think I or any of my kids will be joining a terrorist organisation or committing a crime any time soon but all this says to me is you're treating her citizenship differently to John born in the UK and here for a few more generations. That stinks to me.
You will always offend some people. So it's better to be honest then tactful. Being a citizen here was here right....but if people don't value the culture and the people of this country? Then it's not our problem. This is a situation that could and should have been avoided and if anyone else thinks it smart and don't like our culture, they can leave also. If you were born elsewhere but have respect of the people and culture? 1) You don't do what she did and 2) You will be welcome but this country cannot allow this thing to happen and an example has been set.
What about those criminals who don't respect 'culture' who you can't send back?
Like @africanspur said you are creating tiers for citizenship.
I agree that her citizenship shouldn't have been revoked as a delaying tactic and if she got back to the UK she should have been processed.
I don't agree that the UK government should have gone to get her, baby or not. If a baby qualifies these women for rescue then how valuable does a baby become as a commodity in these lawless camps, is that not a very dangerous precedent to set in and of itself?
Why culture like 'culture'? ...If you want to join a terrorist group? You can stay there. At the end of the day, do we want a nation of terrorist sympathizers? Where does it lead and where does it stop?