OK, I mentioned that because I've read stories of girls who went there with their boyfriend and were then sold to a different group. These girls were told one thing here and then there became sex slaves.I’m not talking about Western girls who willingly travelled to Syria to marry ISIS fighters. I’ve no idea why you’re describing them as sex slaves to be honest. I’m talking about Yazidi girls captured and taken from their homes and families and sold in slave markets before being used as actual sex slaves/concubines.
I’m saying it’s obscene to describe Shamima as a sex slave when she willingly joined and supported (and still supports) an enterprise which used and abused actual, real sex slaves - she was a full participant in the system of oppression which rationalized this slavery. And it’s part of the broader problem with assuming a victim status on behalf of Shamima (something she hasn’t even claimed for herself), since it belittles the experiences of the real victims by drawing an equivalence between them. I’m not saying you intended to do this, but that is the effect of your use of the term. Imagine yourself as a Yazidi slave seeing your tormentors described like this.I'm not sure where you're taking this or what you think I might be suggesting.
This has come up a few times, legally this can't happen.
There are no easy answers. She seems to be saying 'I should be allowed because you have no proof of any wrong doing'. On the one hand, she ran away as a 15 year old girl believing propaganda of a promised land based on her religion. 4 years later, she wants to return to the comforts of a civilized nation she turned away for her safety, heavily pregnant. I'm not sure if she still regrets her actions.Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
I agree with all that. But is she less dangerous if she remains in Syria or goes to Turkey? Who is more capable of keeping her from committing terrorists acts? Who should be responsible for keeping a British woman from committing terrorist acts?Her interviews worry me and they should worry the authorities. When she makes a case for her innocence she says "i didn't spread propaganda or encourage others to join ISIS". She has basically directly quoted two of the charges that were likely to be put towards her. This just tells me that she's been trained what to say and it's a charade.
You can't trust this person at all. People talking about her facing justice maybe don't realise howhard that will be in this case, and for what she will be charged with, she'll be out in her early 20s most likely. The government might be happy to go through this pointless exercise, but that doesn't mean we should just accept it.
Yikes.Any link to terrorism to me is a straight shoot to kill policy. If you want to make yourself known then thanks for the helping hand.
I don't want to spend 1p of tax payers money doing anything other than ending the virus in her head.
If she comes back consider all the potential outcomes involving her in either encouraging or being a terrorist. She wasn't out there for a couple of months as a laugh, she was there for several years.
There is only one way to deal with her....torture, extraction of information and death.
Is there any evidence for this at all? Seems like a nice soundbite to me but I doubt anyone has gone around doing a study to see if these people overlap.There's not much of an equivalency between being groomed by ISIS and being groomed by a would-be individual sex predator. She left the UK because of her ideology, and wanting to pursue a lifestyle that fits with it. Aside from the bombing and the shit healthcare it sounds like she got exactly what she wanted and expected from going out there.
Also liked the point made on QT about the overlap between people who claim 15 year olds are incapable of individual responsibility and those who are desperate to let 16 year olds swing the fate of our referendums and elections.
I think most of us who have sympathy for her still think she should go to jail for any crimes she has committed. The sympathy aspect involves being against the other suggestions made in this thread that range from refusing to accept her back to torturing and murdering her.Reading that there's a lot of sympathy for this lady which bizarre. She may have a child but didn't she decided to join ISIS? Surely this is enough for her to be prosecuted and out behind bars for a long time.
I believe in the rule of law, that it separates us from anarchy and terrorists, but I can't deny a soft spot for teenagers gone awry and children.I think most of us who have sympathy for her still think she should go to jail for any crimes she has committed. The sympathy aspect involves being against the other suggestions made in this thread that range from refusing to accept her back to torturing and murdering her.
For all we know we might have unwittingly let hundreds, maybe thousands, of these people pass through unchecked when Merkel & co thought it was a good idea to open the borders for all & sundry to enter into western Europe. This young woman could now just be another pebble on a very large beach.The problem here is that this isn't some conflict over territory or some strategic aim. We are dealing with indoctrinated people that hold a fundamentally different world view. Not just from the West but also from other Muslims. They advocate the use of the most barbaric and medieval methods to ensure adherence to the law as they see it. Some may have made a mistake but most knew exactly what they were doing and nothing will change their minds.
Stopping the indoctrination seems the only way. How that happens I don't know.
I understand where you're coming from. It's just that I don't see why another nation should have to deal with our problem. She's British so if she does make her way back here I don't think we can foist her on someone else. It's a pretty messy situation.I know it can’t but it definately should. It’s betrayal of the highest order. There are special circumstances when it should come into order and this is one of these.
Hopefully someone will take her out soon she’s a marked women.
Why not try and help both? She was just still a minor when she left.So the baby is born now, so bring the poor little mite back to be looked after by his family and she can stay and rot out there.
Don't want the poor kid to be infected by his mother's bile, do we?
There's always going to be such reactions to an ISIS member. They're darn terrorists after all. She should be in prison for a long time though as should anybody who joins a terrorist organisation.I think most of us who have sympathy for her still think she should go to jail for any crimes she has committed. The sympathy aspect involves being against the other suggestions made in this thread that range from refusing to accept her back to torturing and murdering her.
I think the government need to look at this as different to a normal war. Terrorists do not deserve any form of protection.Is there any evidence for this at all? Seems like a nice soundbite to me but I doubt anyone has gone around doing a study to see if these people overlap.
I guess you have to couch this by saying she is in a camp perhaps teeming with ISIS members/ people sympathetic to ISIS and therefore can't say exactly what she wants to but she doesn't seem very repentant does she? And her interview is a bit of a car crash. People should feel sorry for her because of what she's been through.....I mean I feel sorry for the women who didn't choose to live under ISIS and who were tortured/ gang raped/ killed by their soldiers. And the women who were policed by other groups of women, many of them seemingly foreign born women like her who went to terrorise Middle Easterners in a Syrian/ Middle East civil war. I don't feel much sympathy for the woman who went to join of her own free accord, sneaking away from her family and seemingly showing little to no remorse for what she has done, despite a plethora of information available as to what ISIS were actually doing (and were quite happy to push out there as propaganda).
If she comes back, she is going to be an absolute lightning rod for the right wing in this country. If she is refused, she will apparently become a lightning rod for the disillusioned Muslims (though once some get to that stage, they'll find something else if necessary).
'I can't stay in this camp for ever'. A sentence born of the privilege of being a British citizen.
Europe is going to have a very difficult time with these returnees. I was going to say the world but realised if an Egyptian ISIS fighter for instance were to return to Egypt and got caught, he would get an altogether different welcome.
Agree 100%. But instead we’ll give her and her child a council house and benefits for the rest of their lives. Who’s the mugs here?WW2 rules should apply. We lined up the nazi collaborators after WW2 since they were guilty of treason against the country, the same should be done here.
I think part of the problem and why people don’t want her back in this country, is that they feel the laws do not adequately protect them and/or are not aligned with the majority views anymore. They also consider the politicians unable and/or unwilling to sort it out. There’s a massive disconnect over this. People don’t think the laws do justice. And I’m not talking specifically about Begum but all the cases similar to hers.I can't tell if @RedTillI'mDead is being serious or not.
I for one think the world would be much better off under a benevolent dictatorship that would allow for surgical removal of problematic elements (I'm sure that just got me put on some sort of list), but if you claim to be a democracy bound to a rule of law, you have to follow that rule of law. You can't just waive it when it's convenient. And yes, that applies to this person that has gone over to the danger zone.
One way this could be partially resolved, although it’s completely unrealistic right now, is for these people to be tried first of all in Syria and Iraq. If for no other reason than for the direct victims of their actions to get some form of justice. The costs of the investigation, detention, and trial could be borne by the British state, since it was in Britain that they decided on their path, and they could then serve their time in a British prison. They could then also face trial in Britain for whatever crimes they can be charged with, with a sentence to go on top of what they received from the Syrians and/or Iraqis.I think part of the problem and why people don’t want her back in this country, is that they feel the laws do not adequately protect them and/or are not aligned with the majority views anymore. They also consider the politicians unable and/or unwilling to sort it out. There’s a massive disconnect over this. People don’t think the laws do justice. And I’m not talking specifically about Begum but all the cases similar to hers.
Basically, looking at precedence of this, she will come back and get 5ish years in prison. 5 years that will be a walk in the park compared to her last 5 years anyway. After which, at ~25yo, she’ll be on benefits for the rest of her life as she’s totally unemployable and a single mother. While probably still hating the country and people that subsidise her living and being a lighting rod for Islamists.
That kind of treatment would effectively be rewarding rather punishing her actions. You can see why people feel a disconnect with laws, justice and politicians.
It's difficult though because laws generally aren't going to be perfect, and you can't just circumvent them when they involve taking an approach you'd rather not. Otherwise they're pointless.I think part of the problem and why people don’t want her back in this country, is that they feel the laws do not adequately protect them and/or are not aligned with the majority views anymore. They also consider the politicians unable and/or unwilling to sort it out. There’s a massive disconnect over this. People don’t think the laws do justice. And I’m not talking specifically about Begum but all the cases similar to hers.
Basically, looking at precedence of this, she will come back and get 5ish years in prison. 5 years that will be a walk in the park compared to her last 5 years anyway. After which, at ~25yo, she’ll be on benefits for the rest of her life as she’s totally unemployable and a single mother. While probably still hating the country and people that subsidise her living and being a lighting rod for Islamists.
That kind of treatment would effectively be rewarding rather punishing her actions. You can see why people feel a disconnect with laws, justice and politicians.
Yeah, I don't think Syria would want to become a prison colony for foreign fighters. Thousands left Europe to fight there. They'd want them off their land one way or another.One way this could be partially resolved, although it’s completely unrealistic right now, is for these people to be tried first of all in Syria and Iraq. If for no other reason than for the direct victims of their actions to get some form of justice. The costs of the investigation, detention, and trial could be borne by the British state, since it was in Britain that they decided on their path, and they could then serve their time in a British prison. They could then also face trial in Britain for whatever crimes they can be charged with, with a sentence to go on top of what they received from the Syrians and/or Iraqis.
Laws being not perfect is one thing. Not fit is quite another. I think every country in Europe is basically saying they don't have right laws in place to deal with this relatively new problem.It's difficult though because laws generally aren't going to be perfect, and you can't just circumvent them when they involve taking an approach you'd rather not. Otherwise they're pointless.
Granted, if people have genuine suggestions as to how an issue like this can be addressed in an improved manner then fair enough, but if you're just screaming that it's unfair and that we should ignore the law then your opinion probably isn't going to be taken seriously by lawmakers. Even if your concerns are very much coming from the POV who's genuinely worried about the safety of your family etc.
Good post.Yeah, I don't think Syria would want to become a prison colony for foreign fighters. Thousands left Europe to fight there. They'd want them off their land one way or another.
Laws being not perfect is one thing. Not fit is quite another. I think every country in Europe is basically saying they don't have right laws in place to deal with this relatively new problem.
I'm not really sure why this is being passed off as "autistic screeching" by the masses. Generally people want life sentence (20 years I believe) with no parole for people being part of terrorist organisations. I mean they were aiding and abetting an organisation that was beheading people on TV and planting bombs everywhere. If you ask me, even that's also kinda lenient. On top of that she's responsible for manslaughter by gross negligence. She had two kids in a warzone who died very young, because she consciously decided to become a Jihadi brooding mare to create a line of child soldiers. She's directly responsible for their deaths.
First and foremost the child deserves a life unburdened by the actions of his raving lunatic of a mother. The kid should be brought back and taken into care. And she should be behind bars for a long time till she gets her head straight and then some.
Whilst I don't agree with what she says that headline is misleading after reading full quotes on BBC.Shamima Begum: Manchester Arena bombing 'justified' because of Syria airstrikes, Isis teenager says
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-terror-attack-syria-airstrikes-a8784741.html
A reminder that Salman Abedi was a minor when he travelled to Libya.
According to Trump they will be let go free if the countries don't take them back. I'm not sure the SDF have any authority in Syria and I doubt the UK will be sending any money to Assad for anything.One way this could be partially resolved, although it’s completely unrealistic right now, is for these people to be tried first of all in Syria and Iraq. If for no other reason than for the direct victims of their actions to get some form of justice. The costs of the investigation, detention, and trial could be borne by the British state, since it was in Britain that they decided on their path, and they could then serve their time in a British prison. They could then also face trial in Britain for whatever crimes they can be charged with, with a sentence to go on top of what they received from the Syrians and/or Iraqis.
Sure, it’s definitely not realistic. It’s a shame though, because it’s quite likely that the Syrian and Iraqi victims will be forgotten if/when these people face trial in their home countries - the emphasis will be on the potential threat they pose there.According to Trump they will be let go free if the countries don't take them back. I'm not sure the SDF have any authority in Syria and I doubt the UK will be sending any money to Assad for anything.
This can't be a serious question, you're having a giggle surely.Why not try and help both? She was just still a minor when she left.
She's being quoted as British citizen everywhere. Where did you read this?Doesnt even have a British passport, she used her sisters... so nah we're good.
So that’s passport fraud to add to her crimes. Probably used it because her sister is older and therefore she would be unlikely to be stopped and questioned at passport control.Doesnt even have a British passport, she used her sisters... so nah we're good.
