The apparent discrepancy is probably due to (a) the ISIS attacks that have hit Europe during the time in between, and (b) her current attitude.
Shamima Begum, IS teen wants to come back to the UK
- Thread starter Tommy
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I haven't said otherwise.
You know what Oates, would've been to debate it with you, but you're being a bit of a prick, so I don't think I'm going to bother.
Likewise.
Not for me. At that age, with the overwhelming exposure we've had to terrorism and ISIS in general, I'm disinclined to beleive she wasn't able to make an informed decision. For her not to show any shred of remorse and to speak freely of these things and how she is still wholly in support of ISIS, it removes the validity of any kind of argument of that nature for me. Perhaps I'm oversimplifiying it.
Right-o. Feel free to demonstrate where I've been a prick to you in my response. Alternatively, you could just apologise for massively overreacting to what was merely a post that disagreed with your own.
Fairly sure that opinion is at odds with those of both child welfare and anti-terrorism experts at the time though. Which, if it was me, might make me reconsider my opinion given they literally know better.
As for her not changing her opinion since, I'm not sure that's neccesarily all that surprising? She has largely remained under the influence of those who groomed and abused her in the intervening four years. Not a whole lot of room for personal growth and deviating opinions, I would have thought.
Maybe she'll think that way forever, who knows? Personally I don't think it's unlikley that her opinions could alter once she gets some distance from IS though, both physically and mentally.
When someone calls asking a question stretching it seems to me they want to ignore the question and ridicule the poster. I call that pretty dickish behaviour.
People don't want to ask themselves why a woman living in abject misery, fighting for food, defecating in public, with no shelter and fearing for her children's lives being interviewed surrounded by hundreds of people she can't trust says "I don't regret coming here" and can't see an issue then they want to be blind.
Personally I see most people on here willing to suspend the rule of law for one person but would be up in arms defending the rights of another fellow citizen in another country to be helped by the British Government because they smuggled drugs or for any of a number of reasons I have to believe it is fear governing their thoughts and posts.
That's why they call it an opinion I suppose.
When you've lost two children, with a third at risk, you've seen people beaten and heads in waste bins, you might what to consider an alternative. Sure, she will be a product of her environment to an extent, and if she has grown up with no other influencers around her other than ISIS, I'd share the same opinion - but she hasn't. She's spent the majority of her life in a place that holds very different values, and although the influence of ISIS will have been there too, she's seen that alternative first hand, a place where it's not routine for rape, decapitation and murder to occur. At some point she needs to be held accountable for her actions and opinions. This isn't just a dream she had been coerced into believing any more, she's seen the reality of it.
dike to know where this place would be where she could get this distance from ISIS, particularly one where she shouldn't remain an immediate danger or influencer to those around her.
Seriously? That's what you got from "stretching?" You've got to be pretty wound up to take ridicule away from that. Come on Oates, you're a very intelligent guy, you know your response wasn't proportionate to that.
Here's an idea, don't give an interview. How's that sound?
More ridicule. No examining the question. More fear?
This girl and others deserve to face British Justice, for some of you fearmongers at the very least we need to find out if Shamima was groomed, brainwashed, at 15 - abused and who did it? Who funded her trip and others.
feck me you got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning, didn't you? You've just been an absolute bellend based on what would've been a pretty tenuous insult (which it wasn't), and instead of just saying, 'yup, sorry about that,' you go all in, and then question the "ridicule" you received in response?
I see declining to give an interview doesn't sit well with your narrative.
Oh the irony in you rambling on about taking things on face value, and a lack of comprehension on my part. Feel free to point out where I said she shouldn't face British Justice. I've said it's understandable for public opinion to be of this persuasion, that's all.
This is a divisive enough thread without name calling.
I can see your frustration but let's try and be civil.
You have much more chance of others actually reading your posts.
The civility was lost the moment he replied. I'm happy to say someone is a prick when they're being a prick, particularly when it's someone who is usually as reasonable as Oates is. There was no need to structure his response in the way that he did, it was low, hence why I didn't want to give a lot of time to someone who wanted to turn it into a personal affair. It's all there to see.
It is reported in the Independent that she had given birth to a baby boy in the refugee camp.
The report also says that she was married to an ISIS fighter when she had her two previous babies, both of which died.
I don’t know whether her husband is still alive or not.
The report also says that she was married to an ISIS fighter when she had her two previous babies, both of which died.
I don’t know whether her husband is still alive or not.
I do agree and as I have mentioned I do understand your frustration.
The reason I said this is that I have been criticised for being condescending in the Brexit thread and when I re-read my posts I could see that the language I had used (for identical reasons to you) could have offended.
The thing is that we all have different views on a topic and when some people disagree, there is a tendency to become abusive.
Best thing is to either ignore them or just chill. It is Sunday.
We know the answers - she and her friends were persuaded to travel over there by a Scottish lady called Aqsa Mahmood, and it was reported that they stole family jewelry to finance their trip.
You know all the answers 2cents
I've changed my mind on this. I think we should bring her back and put her on trial and get social services involved with the kid.
I didn't stop to consider her only citizenship was UK, and given that fact I don't see how we can dump the problem on someone else.
I didn't stop to consider her only citizenship was UK, and given that fact I don't see how we can dump the problem on someone else.
No interest in allowing her to return.
But thought there are 2 possible reasons why she remains “sympathetic” to ISIS.
1. She is sympathetic
Or
2. She’s still in a country where she’s surrounded by people still loyal or affiliated with ISIS. You don’t give a public interview saying how you actually hate them all without risking your life.
Either way, you’ve made your bed.
But thought there are 2 possible reasons why she remains “sympathetic” to ISIS.
1. She is sympathetic
Or
2. She’s still in a country where she’s surrounded by people still loyal or affiliated with ISIS. You don’t give a public interview saying how you actually hate them all without risking your life.
Either way, you’ve made your bed.
Well aside from the details of her life in Raqqa, the particulars of the case have been known and public for four years. What’s still open for question is what should be done, and on that I’m still not sure.You know all the answers 2cents
Her response is not typical of the interviews I’ve read of ‘escaped’/captured fighters (men). They all seem very keen to distance themselves from ISIS, to stress how disillusioned they are and to emphasize that they never did any fighting. In contrast, the responses of women being held are more like Shamima’s - they seem more honest/prepared to divulge the horrible details. See this thread for example:
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Perhaps they feel that since they didn’t engage in active combat, they’re less vulnerable to legal consequences at home. Maybe they’re sociopaths.
Dunno about child welfare experts. I posted a couple of Twitter threads from two Muslim anti-extremism experts earlier, Shiraz Maher and Mubin Shaikh. Both men have been associated with extremist outfits earlier in their lives. While Maher seems unsure of what should be done, Mubin Shaikh is taking a harsh stance, warning about the consequences of allowing these people to return.
Is she actually pregnant? It could be a cleverly disguised bomb. white text
I'm of a similar opinion. I wouldn't go busting a gut to retrieve her though, no point putting lives a risk for her mistakes
In a similar vein to not turning our back on her citizenship, I'd hope the UK is putting enough effort into identifying islamic extreamists and sympothisors, then doing all it can to deport those that are not full UK nationals. We shouldn't have to take responsibility for other state's radicals
They are your state's radicals though, born and bred in UK.
That was not what I was referring to.
I was talking about recent arrivals to the UK who may now have British citizenship. In similar way to how we are responsible in this case and should take her back, I'd expect the same if we identified extremists in this country
Ah yeah definitely agree with that.
She could return, serve her time and be out on our streets blowing people up within 3-5 years if we can't legally prove anything major on her. You may laugh and say this is the worst case scenario - but it's a very realistic scenario.
Consider what somebody posted earlier, that you get sworn into ISIS and the only way out is practically death. Also consider that they have said they will use people like this as Trojan Horse threats in this eventuality. This is a real, serious possibility here.
They can't keep tabs on her when she's back in society. Those that killed Lee Rigby were known to our intelligence teams but look what they did.
Any blood shed at her hands or as a result of her actions is on those that are willing to let this become a possibility. I'll only be satisfied that she returns and faces justice if i know that she will spend the rest of her life locked away.
Consider what somebody posted earlier, that you get sworn into ISIS and the only way out is practically death. Also consider that they have said they will use people like this as Trojan Horse threats in this eventuality. This is a real, serious possibility here.
They can't keep tabs on her when she's back in society. Those that killed Lee Rigby were known to our intelligence teams but look what they did.
Any blood shed at her hands or as a result of her actions is on those that are willing to let this become a possibility. I'll only be satisfied that she returns and faces justice if i know that she will spend the rest of her life locked away.
Its a difficult one and there are compelling arguments from both sides.
This case in particular has drawn so much attention; I feel if she is let back without severe punishment, what sort of impression does that give to others around the country thinking of joining ISIS abroad? That they can go over there, be part of a terrorist organisation actively fighting against the UK, and then just return to the UK when they realise the grass isn't always greener? Doesn't really seem like much of a deterrent for prospective ISIS members here going over to Syria.
This case in particular has drawn so much attention; I feel if she is let back without severe punishment, what sort of impression does that give to others around the country thinking of joining ISIS abroad? That they can go over there, be part of a terrorist organisation actively fighting against the UK, and then just return to the UK when they realise the grass isn't always greener? Doesn't really seem like much of a deterrent for prospective ISIS members here going over to Syria.
Hard case this.
She was 15, simply put, a child when she went. In our society you're not allowed to make most decisions on your own at that age, because you're not mature enough to make them in an informed way. I don't know anything about her childhood, but I imagine her parents aren't wealthy and sophisticated people from North London.
On the other hand, she joined a terrorist group with whom she still agrees apparently. This does not speak in her favour, at all. She's made her bed and was quite content with it. That is, until it collapsed and she got caught. A very logic first reaction is feck off and die in your terrorist bed you cnut.
However, we are not ISIS,we are enlightened and believe in rehabilitation (don't we?). By giving her a second chance we can show the world we are better than them. Because say what you want about western democracy, they're morally superior to ISIS.
I still slightly lean to the feck off and die in a Kurdish prison stance , but not completely.
She was 15, simply put, a child when she went. In our society you're not allowed to make most decisions on your own at that age, because you're not mature enough to make them in an informed way. I don't know anything about her childhood, but I imagine her parents aren't wealthy and sophisticated people from North London.
On the other hand, she joined a terrorist group with whom she still agrees apparently. This does not speak in her favour, at all. She's made her bed and was quite content with it. That is, until it collapsed and she got caught. A very logic first reaction is feck off and die in your terrorist bed you cnut.
However, we are not ISIS,we are enlightened and believe in rehabilitation (don't we?). By giving her a second chance we can show the world we are better than them. Because say what you want about western democracy, they're morally superior to ISIS.
I still slightly lean to the feck off and die in a Kurdish prison stance , but not completely.
Too much risk with simply letting her stumble her way back into society whether that is now or after a prison sentence. As far as I am concerned she is too far gone and there is no coming back from this type of brainwashing.
To her WE are the enemy and she is using any means necessary to come back here and do what? We can't track her 24/7 so I am not comfortable with the Government taking the risk.
Plus being tracked 24/7 could push her to commit an atrocity as she could feel paranoid/threatened.
Let her rot.
To her WE are the enemy and she is using any means necessary to come back here and do what? We can't track her 24/7 so I am not comfortable with the Government taking the risk.
Plus being tracked 24/7 could push her to commit an atrocity as she could feel paranoid/threatened.
Let her rot.
Not necessarily true. That depends on the nations laws where they are born and whether they have birthright citizenship. Regardless the child will be British, so has the right to be here
This reminds of that Dave Chapelle stand-up, people really need to decide how old is old enough. Because this is terrorism, a 15 year old must suffer all the consequences and get no help. But if a a 15 year old committed a drug crime while on holiday in China or the Philippines people would be up in arms demanding the government help her.
Aren't laws supposed to be the same for all citizens?
Aren't laws supposed to be the same for all citizens?
Yeah If the parent was born in Britain (which I beleive is Shamima's case), and is not a citizen by means other than descent, then the parent can pass on their citizenship to their child.
There should be a GoShootHer campaign....
Preceded by torture to find out everything possible about other terrorist links.
Any link to terrorism to me is a straight shoot to kill policy. If you want to make yourself known then thanks for the helping hand.
I don't want to spend 1p of tax payers money doing anything other than ending the virus in her head.
If she comes back consider all the potential outcomes involving her in either encouraging or being a terrorist. She wasn't out there for a couple of months as a laugh, she was there for several years.
There is only one way to deal with her....torture, extraction of information and death.
If you are stupid enough to be brainwashed by terrorists then you have nothing to add to this country and should either stay in her current hell hole or come back and face death.
Jeez. A bit rough that. Torture, murder.
Sadly the best that could have happened is that they all die in airstrikes but they didn’t, so.......
What are the other European govmnts doing with their returning ISIS fighters?
Sadly the best that could have happened is that they all die in airstrikes but they didn’t, so.......
What are the other European govmnts doing with their returning ISIS fighters?
If we kicked everyone who were stupid enough to be brainwashed and added nothing to this country approximately 52% of the country would be gone.
I do think she should come back and face punishment though.
I'd happily have those adding nothing to the country to be kicked out of it. Imagine how much better this country would be. The quality of life would improve drastically, crime would decrease, housing crisis would be solved.
But I'm happy to start off with death to all terrorists.