Shamima Begum, IS teen wants to come back to the UK

[Cloud7]

There's no hard and fast rule to some supposed level of maturity of teenagers, in this case a 15 year old. Maybe you can remember being 15 and that you were quite mature. Certainly we expect children over the age of ten to know the difference between right and wrong and they can be tried differently in courts etc. However teenagers even knowing right from wrong frequently make the wrong choices. I guess that is where maturity comes in.

I don't know if you've watched any of the interviews with Shamima but she comes across as what we used to be able to call "a bit thick" but instead maybe suggest she could be learning disabled, or just immature. At 19 making the choices she has but making them at 15 and living in a very different culture, a war zone at times, her maturity may not have developed much further. It would be nice to know the facts. One poster has suggested she may be autistic. Possibly. From her eye contact movements and speech, she could be on the spectrum. We don't know.

I haven't seen anyone with even an ounce of compassion or old fashioned 'sympathy' though not suggest that she needs to face our justice system, she did after all make the choices she has taken. We can still have compassion without forgetting what she has done. Forgiveness is entirely separate.

PS. Also meant to suggest that as she comes across she may have some level of PTSD. Might not change much but may go some way to explaining the way she is coming across. However, we still don't know.

I was certainly far from mature as a fifteen year old. At that age me and my friends snuck alcohol into school and got suspended for it two weeks before writing our equivalent of GCSE exams

Actions like that I can understand. I guess where I differ from a lot on here is things that you just know are wrong and evil, and still participate in it. An example would be the fact that I have racist family members who would say their brainless nonsense around me, the kind of thing that people would call “brainwashing” or “indoctrination” or whatever on here, yet I always knew to myself, this is absolutely wrong, and took none of it on board. Similarly anyone who can look at what ISIS is doing and not think that they are pure evil, and not only that, but actively join them, that’s a very far cry from taking alcohol to school. A six year old can look at what ISIS were doing and realize that they were pure evil. I don’t think it’s holding anyone to too high a standard to say that as a teenager you can’t just chalk something like that up as ‘making a mistake’.

Edit: Apologies for not replying to your entire post, got cut short before I could phrase my thoughts on that properly.

 

[oates]

I was certainly far from mature as a fifteen year old. At that age me and my friends snuck alcohol into school and got suspended for it two weeks before writing our equivalent of GCSE exams

Actions like that I can understand. I guess where I differ from a lot on here is things that you just know are wrong and evil, and still participate in it. An example would be the fact that I have racist family members who would say their brainless nonsense around me, the kind of thing that people would call “brainwashing” or “indoctrination” or whatever on here, yet I always knew to myself, this is absolutely wrong, and took none of it on board. Similarly anyone who can look at what ISIS is doing and not think that they are pure evil, and not only that, but actively join them, that’s a very far cry from taking alcohol to school. A six year old can look at what ISIS were doing and realize that they were pure evil. I don’t think it’s holding anyone to too high a standard to say that as a teenager you can’t just chalk something like that up as ‘making a mistake’.

I'm sorry, I understand what you are saying and certainly with your background you know these things as an absolute but I've been working with teenage kids for nearly twenty years and some of their choices have been criminal, ridiculous and even dangerous not just to themselves. There is no end to the new ridiculous I can learn I'm afraid.

 

[Kaos]

People feeling any sort of compassion with these ISIS women should read some of the statements from the Yazidi female survivors of how much compassion these recruits showed them.

Thank you.

As a Kurd it makes me sick we’re showing these monsters any semblance of compassion after the sick, barbaric acts they’ve committed. The fact she seems to feel no remorse only dignifies that.

I don’t want her hurt or tortured but maybe spare the compassion for the real victims instead.

 

[Red Defence]

There's no hard and fast rule to some supposed level of maturity of teenagers, in this case a 15 year old. Maybe you can remember being 15 and that you were quite mature. Certainly we expect children over the age of ten to know the difference between right and wrong and they can be tried differently in courts etc. However teenagers even knowing right from wrong frequently make the wrong choices. I guess that is where maturity comes in.

I don't know if you've watched any of the interviews with Shamima but she comes across as what we used to be able to call "a bit thick" but instead maybe suggest she could be learning disabled, or just immature. At 19 making the choices she has but making them at 15 and living in a very different culture, a war zone at times, her maturity may not have developed much further. It would be nice to know the facts. One poster has suggested she may be autistic. Possibly. From her eye contact movements and speech, she could be on the spectrum. We don't know.

I haven't seen anyone with even an ounce of compassion or old fashioned 'sympathy' though not suggest that she needs to face our justice system, she did after all make the choices she has taken. We can still have compassion without forgetting what she has done. Forgiveness is entirely separate.

PS. Also meant to suggest that as she comes across she may have some level of PTSD. Might not change much but may go some way to explaining the way she is coming across. However, we still don't know.

I don’t think she’s thick. When they first left to go to Syria she was known to be a “sensible” girl and a talented and dynamic student. I’ve no doubt she’s feeling miserable and fed up out there, which may explain how she is coming across, but which of us wouldn’t feel that way. Her husband’s been captured, she is in a refugee camp with a young baby and her dream of living in her Islamic State world is completely shattered. Not a nice feeling having to face up to that.

 

[oates]

Thank you.

As a Kurd it makes me sick we’re showing these monsters any semblance of compassion after the sick, barbaric acts they’ve committed. The fact she seems to feel no remorse only dignifies that.

I don’t want her hurt or tortured but maybe spare the compassion for the real victims instead.

I've plenty of compassion, enough for everyone perhaps.

 

[oates]

I don’t think she’s thick. When they first left to go to Syria she was known to be a “sensible” girl and a talented and dynamic student. I’ve no doubt she’s feeling miserable and fed up out there, which may explain how she is coming across, but which of us wouldn’t feel that way. Her husband’s been captured, she is in a refugee camp with a young baby and her dream of living in her Islamic State world is completely shattered. Not a nice feeling knowing all of that.

Perhaps, we don't have all of the facts. If she's bad the whole way through - as a way of putting it - then she deserves to stay in prison. But she is our problem to deal with and everyone gets justice or none at all.

 

[2cents]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[Sky1981]

15 years of uk education should be more than enough to know supporting terrorist groups that kills and bombs people is wrong.

You can make a case for wartorn inhabitants with indoctrination. But living in the west with all its privilege and still chooses to join isis?

 

[oates]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

I can understand that people are angry, they have had no justice but we can do nothing and allow ourselves as far away watchers to get depressed and feel we can do nothing or we can at least clear up our mess and try to find ways to stop our people from doing these things again and again.

 

[oates]

15 years of uk education should be more than enough to know supporting terrorist groups that kills and bombs people is wrong.

You can make a case for wartorn inhabitants with indoctrination. But living in the west with all its privilege and still chooses to join isis?

It's not fifteen years of education is it? In any case, you can either take my word for it or not but I've seen teenagers from all sorts of backgrounds make terrible choices and still improve.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

15 years of uk education should be more than enough to know supporting terrorist groups that kills and bombs people is wrong.

You can make a case for wartorn inhabitants with indoctrination. But living in the west with all its privilege and still chooses to join isis?

Imagine living in the West and still choose to supply money and weapons to ‘freedom fighters’, see how that works?

You don’t have to feel any sympathy to her, the question here is whether her citizenship warrantees a fair trial and subsequent punishment/rehabilitation (if possible). It’s very easy to say ‘feck her, why endanger our citizens’ but fact of the matter is allowing a government known to do shady shits a precedent where they can suspend the rule of laws in favour of public opinion is always a slippery slope leading to disaster. There’s also a wider point regarding the British Muslim community, they probably won’t speak up in her favour but the nagging feeling that a Muslim is treated differently will persist. You can bet your arse a white Christian or religiously unaffiliated British terrorist will be extradited and face a trial sharpish in similar circumstances.

 

[Ian Reus]

Imagine living in the West and still choose to supply money and weapons to ‘freedom fighters’, see how that works?

You don’t have to feel any sympathy to her, the question here is whether her citizenship warrantees a fair trial and subsequent punishment/rehabilitation (if possible). It’s very easy to say ‘feck her, why endanger our citizens’ but fact of the matter is allowing a government known to do shady shits a precedent where they can suspend the rule of laws in favour of public opinion is always a slippery slope leading to disaster. There’s also a wider point regarding the British Muslim community, they probably won’t speak up in her favour but the nagging feeling that a Muslim is treated differently will persist. You can bet your arse a white Christian or religiously unaffiliated British terrorist will be extradited and face a trial sharpish in similar circumstances.

The UK government is out of touch with the people so will continue to supply arms to the wrong type regardless of whether UK citizens agree with it or not.
But Isis don't target the UK government, they target innocent people.
Do or have Isis targeted Russia ?

 

[Sky1981]

Imagine living in the West and still choose to supply money and weapons to ‘freedom fighters’, see how that works?

You don’t have to feel any sympathy to her, the question here is whether her citizenship warrantees a fair trial and subsequent punishment/rehabilitation (if possible). It’s very easy to say ‘feck her, why endanger our citizens’ but fact of the matter is allowing a government known to do shady shits a precedent where they can suspend the rule of laws in favour of public opinion is always a slippery slope leading to disaster. There’s also a wider point regarding the British Muslim community, they probably won’t speak up in her favour but the nagging feeling that a Muslim is treated differently will persist. You can bet your arse a white Christian or religiously unaffiliated British terrorist will be extradited and face a trial sharpish in similar circumstances.

I can imagine that. The government are equally dirty and if it's up to me those incharges of shady arms dealing should get death penalty

Edit : for what its worth i think you misunderstood me. I think as a british citizen she should be treated like one. If she somehow made it to uk she should face trial. But completely written off what she's done and give her a clean slate is something i don't agree.

The child she's carrying is innocent off course.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

The UK government is out of touch with the people so will continue to supply arms to the wrong type regardless of whether UK citizens agree with it or not.
But Isis don't target the UK government, they target innocent people.
Do or have Isis targeted Russia ?

I’m not sure what your contention is.

Good people exist in bad system and vice versa. Living in a good model of society undergird by the rule of laws and respect for human rights doesn’t guarantee that you’d grow up sharing the same values 100% of the time, but it guarantees you, or at least it should in principle, a fair judgment based on the system when you commit evils.

I just find it extremely ironic that the folks trumpeting the moral superiority of the West are now having no qualms about abandoning them for the sake of security. Born and bred in a country when the government can and did do whatever it wants (like confiscated private property when they saw fit, going so far as going house to house digging up the floor) gives me a different perspective I suppose.

 

[Ian Reus]

I’m not sure what your contention is.

Good people exist in bad system and vice versa. Living in a good model of society undergird by the rule of laws and respect for human rights doesn’t guarantee that you’d grow up sharing the same values 100% of the time, but it guarantees you, or at least it should in principle, a fair judgment based on the system when you commit evils.

I just find it extremely ironic that the folks trumpeting the moral superiority of the West are now having no qualms about abandoning them for the sake of security. Born and bred in a country when the government can and did do whatever it wants (like confiscated private property when they saw fit, going so far as going house to house digging up the floor) gives me a different perspective I suppose.

For what it's worth. I think she and her child should be allowed to come back but the child should go up for adoption and she would absolutely need questioning.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

I can imagine that. The government are equally dirty and if it's up to me those incharges of shady arms dealing should get death penalty

And so you get your answer. Government are made of people, and if Oxbridge educated ruling class have no problem discarding the values of the society they belong to when it suits their interest, then that extend to a 15 year old Muslim just as easily.

 

[Sky1981]

And so you get your answer. Government are made of people, and if Oxbridge educated ruling class have no problem discarding the values of the society they belong to when it suits their interest, then that extend to a 15 year old Muslim just as easily.

So what's your stance on this ? Forgive and forget? A slap in the wrist?

 

[The Purley King]

Have thought about this quite a lot over the last few days.
Can't remember the poster, but they mentioned that existing laws are not suitable to prosecute her to the degree that most of us feel is appropriate and that is why people think she'll get off lightly if she does make it back. Being out in <10 years is completely ridiculous and yet it may be a 6 year sentence and out in 3.
The fact that she was initially completely unrepentant (until presumably being advised to take a different approach) should be a big red flag. She should be treated in the same way that sex offenders are in that the prison service has to be 100% certain they do not pose a risk before they are let out. If she wants to stick with her allegiances for the rest of her life, she'll be doing a lot of porridge. If she has to stay inside for 25 years before we are sure, then that's what happens. There are always repeat sex offenders though, so as much as its probably an impossible job, I don't have any faith in the prison service to get things right. When you think of the potentially disastrous consequences if a mistake is made then that's why people are so uncomfortable about it imo (myself included).
Overall, I think we are doing the right thing at the moment (i.e. nothing) and if she happens to make it back then we deal with her at that point. In the meantime we should be sorting the fecking law out.

 

[oates]

So what's your stance on this ? Forgive and forget? A slap in the wrist?

You're the very first person I've seen suggesting it.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

So what's your stance on this ? Forgive and forget? A slap in the wrist?

She and the child should be brought back to face British justice. If the laws and process are found to be inadequate in dealing with this particular problem of expatriate homegrown terrorists then legislations will be introduced and passed to amend them, with overwhelming public support I’d imagine.

 

[Sky1981]

She and the child should be brought back to face British justice. If the laws and process are found to be inadequate in dealing with this particular problem of expatriate homegrown terrorists then legislations will be introduced and passed to amend them, with overwhelming public support I’d imagine.

Then we are in agreement ?

 

[Sky1981]

You're the very first person I've seen suggesting it.

Anything less than a very lengthy prison time is a slap in the wrist.

 

[11101]

Have thought about this quite a lot over the last few days.
Can't remember the poster, but they mentioned that existing laws are not suitable to prosecute her to the degree that most of us feel is appropriate and that is why people think she'll get off lightly if she does make it back. Being out in <10 years is completely ridiculous and yet it may be a 6 year sentence and out in 3.
The fact that she was initially completely unrepentant (until presumably being advised to take a different approach) should be a big red flag. She should be treated in the same way that sex offenders are in that the prison service has to be 100% certain they do not pose a risk before they are let out. If she wants to stick with her allegiances for the rest of her life, she'll be doing a lot of porridge. If she has to stay inside for 25 years before we are sure, then that's what happens. There are always repeat sex offenders though, so as much as its probably an impossible job, I don't have any faith in the prison service to get things right. When you think of the potentially disastrous consequences if a mistake is made then that's why people are so uncomfortable about it imo (myself included).
Overall, I think we are doing the right thing at the moment (i.e. nothing) and if she happens to make it back then we deal with her at that point. In the meantime we should be sorting the fecking law out.

I very much doubt she will make it back to the UK alive. Getting her face all over the newspapers is a sensible tactic to avoid turning up face down in a ditch somewhere but i still don't think she'll make it back.

 

[Sky1981]

I very much doubt she will make it back to the UK alive. Getting her face all over the newspapers is a sensible tactic to avoid turning up face down in a ditch somewhere but i still don't think she'll make it back.

Getting her face known is the best move imho. The british will presumably notice her and bring her back at all cost to avoid bad pr.

 

[oates]

Anything less than a very lengthy prison time is a slap in the wrist.

Please feel free to vote for the government that will choose to punish her to the degree you desire.

Meanwhile over and over our current prison system is reported as failing. It would be amazing if something that was more effective could be devised.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

Then we are in agreement ?

If you are of the same opinion, obviously.

Mind, if she does eventually get something like 6 years and early release/parole for good behaviour, I still think that supercedes the urge to disregard existing laws in this particular instance, so that’s where we might differ greatly. It’ll cost the state and taxpayers a lot of money to monitor her for the rest of her existence, and I understand perfectly why people want to wash their hands off the trouble, but it’s a small price to pay for upholding the rights every citizens enjoy, even if they are uncomfortable with that.

 

[Sky1981]

If you are of the same opinion, obviously.

Mind, if she does eventually get something like 6 years and early release/parole for good behaviour, I still think that supercedes the urge to disregard existing laws in this particular instance, so that’s where we might differ greatly. It’ll cost the state and taxpayers a lot of money to monitor her for the rest of her existence, and I understand perfectly why people want to wash their hands off the trouble, but it’s a small price to pay for upholding the rights every citizens enjoy, even if they are uncomfortable with that.

I dont know what the rules of britain.

She should just get the punishment accordingly. No more no less. If the rules says 25 then 25 it is. Whatever the court decides. I'm not asking for death penalty or stoning, i just dont think she should receive any special treatment at all. Not in this case.

 

[Sky1981]

Please feel free to vote for the government that will choose to punish her to the degree you desire.

Meanwhile over and over our current prison system is reported as failing. It would be amazing if something that was more effective could be devised.

I'd say prison is effective. The process of determining who they should send there is not though.

 

[oates]

I'd say prison is effective. The process of determining who they should send there is not though.

Yes, I understand.

 

[MadMike]

Please feel free to vote for the government that will choose to punish her to the degree you desire.

Meanwhile over and over our current prison system is reported as failing. It would be amazing if something that was more effective could be devised.

Prison system is "failing" due to lack of funding. In the same way the NHS is "failing" because of lack of funding. That's an unrelated subject to the question of whether people should be sent to prison or have longer prison sentences. You'd still go to the hospital/GP even the the NHS is failing and you still should server at her majesty's pleasure for a long time if your actions warrant it.

 

[oates]

Prison system is "failing" due to lack of funding. In the same way the NHS is "failing" because of lack of funding. That's an unrelated subject to the question of whether people should be sent to prison or have longer prison sentences. You'd still go to the hospital/GP even the the NHS is failing and you still should server at her majesty's pleasure for a long time if your actions warrant it.

There are a lot of rehabilitation programs failing to be achieved while prisons are underfunded but you are right, it is a different topic but I hoped someone might see the point.

Most people commenting here agree on punishing this girl. It is what we do but it does little to change anyone subject to being warehoused for however long their sentence is. But that isn't the point is it? We just want punishing and this girl is the object of that punishing.

 

[The Purley King]

Getting her face known is the best move imho. The british will presumably notice her and bring her back at all cost to avoid bad pr.

Bad PR? We'd get horrendous PR if we went out of our way to bring her back, but doing nothing won't be bad PR at all, quite the opposite I would have thought.
Hopefully over time this will become one of those stories which surfaces every 6 months or so and we learn that she's still in the refugee camp.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Privileging, erasure, triggering... just a few more words and I complete my lefty whinging bingo card.

Seriously, though, what's her point? That the British media shouldn't be covering this story because that means they're ignoring the plight of the Kurds? What on earth?

EDIT: Read the rest of the tweets in that thread and they make a lot more sense...

 

[MadMike]

There are a lot of rehabilitation programs failing to be achieved while prisons are underfunded but you are right, it is a different topic but I hoped someone might see the point.

Most people commenting here agree on punishing this girl. It is what we do but it does little to change anyone subject to being warehoused for however long their sentence is. But that isn't the point is it? We just want punishing and this girl is the object of that punishing.

No, that's not it. You're making it sound like we have some sort of punishment fetish and getting some sick joy out of it, which couldn't be further from the truth.

We just don't want terrorist enablers to be getting of Scot free and roaming among us first and foremost. Secondly we want to deter people from following on her footsteps and punishment can work as a deterrent. When we've devised a system that works better than prisons in protecting the populace, one that is more financially sustainable and doesn't involve torturing or putting people to sleep, then we can talk about it.

 

[oates]

No, that's not it. You're making it sound like we have some sort of punishment fetish and getting some sick joy out of it, which couldn't be further from the truth.

We just don't want terrorist enablers to be getting of Scot free and roaming among us first and foremost. Secondly we want to deter people from following on her footsteps and punishment can work as a deterrent. When we've devised a system that works better than prisons in protecting the populace, one that is more financially sustainable and doesn't involve torturing or putting people to sleep, then we can talk about it.

Well as I always remind myself I am frequently wrong but looking over these pages it does kind of jump out to me that everyone seems to be focusing on punishing her. There's let her rot, leave her to her misery, my own personal favourite, let someone find her in a ditch and the more usual, just punish.

It doesn't leave a lot if any room for her and those like her, well anyone who thinks wrong to rehabilitate - to perhaps one day attempt to make amends - bring about some reconciliation. Be a better person. At least not teach others that hate is all there is because that just goes around and around.

 

[The Purley King]

Well as I always remind myself I am frequently wrong but looking over these pages it does kind of jump out to me that everyone seems to be focusing on punishing her. There's let her rot, leave her to her misery, my own personal favourite, let someone find her in a ditch and the more usual, just punish.

It doesn't leave a lot if any room for her and those like her, well anyone who thinks wrong to rehabilitate - to perhaps one day attempt to make amends - bring about some reconciliation. Be a better person. At least not teach others that hate is all there is because that just goes around and around.

Oates you seem one of the more compassionate people here and its good to hear a contrary point of view. Regarding the bolded, do you think we should make active efforts to bring her back? What about the other (few hundred?) people in the same position as her? I can't see that its a viable (or morally correct) option to do this.
If she does make it home then agree 100% full efforts should be made to rehabilitate her whilst she is in prison. If people want to do a gofundme campaign to bring her back then fine, its not up to me how people spend their money, but zero assistance should be given by our government.

 

[SilentWitness]

She's still human and the world that her child was conceived in is not a relation of the child itself. Yes, what she did was abhorrent and in the interviews she does not particularly show any signs of remorse, but she doesn't really show much signs of someone who knows what she is talking about either. She appears as someone who was a very easy target for ISIS as she has been easily brainwashed. I think that if there is low risk involved in getting her and others in her position back who have factors such as children involved then so be it, make efforts to rehibilitate and limit her in UK society initially and give her child a safe environment to grow in.

 

[VeevaVee]

When a semblance of sympathy starts to creep in with this, I realise that this person supported what happened in Manchester. Every single person that went over there made them stronger and allowed attacks like this to happen. Made them look more powerful more appealing. They gave them the information needed. She was surely happy that it did happen. She shows no regret or remorse, in fact quite the opposite. Why should she get another chance and none of those kids? This isn't Daily Mail scaremongering. It's very real.

 

[oates]

Oates you seem one of the more compassionate people here and its good to hear a contrary point of view. Regarding the bolded, do you think we should make active efforts to bring her back? What about the other (few hundred?) people in the same position as her? I can't see that its a viable (or morally correct) option to do this.
If she does make it home then agree 100% full efforts should be made to rehabilitate her whilst she is in prison. If people want to do a gofundme campaign to bring her back then fine, its not up to me how people spend their money, but zero assistance should be given by our government.

There are apparently some that have returned already, you have to assume or hope that MI5 have an eye on them occasionally. If we leave her - and them where they are do they come back under their own steam eventually, helped by families or smugglers, still holding their damaging, dangerous and hateful views? Or do we tidy up our mess, our moral and legal duty to do and along the way discover what made them believe what they believed, how they were influenced - all that stuff that might prevent more of our people, our citizens from creating more damage? I believe we have at least a legal duty to sort this and a moral one to improve the situation. We have a mixed unjust society and a lot more young people who could do with growing up without the hate.

 

[Ahsan_6386]

I have been reading about her and I personally feel that Britain should take her back along with her coming baby . The child should be given to her parents and relatives after birth while she should be sent to a mental facility for a de radicalisation programme . After completing the programme she should be put to trial for her deeds along with her passport fraud and she should serve time in prison preferably atleast 5 years . She needs to pay for her misconduct and extreme views .

All this punishment should be given keeping in mind that she did all this when she was a minor .