Re read it Ronaldo was 3rd and 4th in that list meaning that his knockouts goals alone make him the 3rd all time but his real goal tally is the total together. It sounds confusing but just re read it.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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Ronaldo's team (Madrid did this 4-5 years and now Juve) have to put crosses in the box and Ronaldo wait there until they arrive and do what he does best. He now is a box specialist and lethal there. It's funny how Ronaldo was the better player 2007-2013 but has become more effective 2014-now when he become a box specialist. He relies more on his teammates, but they just need to put crosses in the box, which is a simple thing to do.
Messi for the last years has to create the chance dribbling a couple of players, make the killing pass and hope his teammate doesn't screw up. Because he can't be around the box and wait until the ball goes to him. Barça doesn't have the skill to carry the ball to danger positions without involving Messi in the build up and use him for the shoot like they used to do.
Messi for the last years has to create the chance dribbling a couple of players, make the killing pass and hope his teammate doesn't screw up. Because he can't be around the box and wait until the ball goes to him. Barça doesn't have the skill to carry the ball to danger positions without involving Messi in the build up and use him for the shoot like they used to do.
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Nah, this is terrible
Yeah, he started in the harder game in Europe for the lulz, he didn't start regularly in La Liga because we had our foreign quote filled, but once he got the Spanish nationality in September he played in every game but one until his injury.
No one throws an 18 year old kid to play in Stamford Bridge if he's not bloody good and doesn't contribute to the team, he was our best player in the pitch and the main reason we advanced that leg, if you don't believe it, watch the 2005 leg, we showed up in London defending a 2-1 advantage from the Camp Nou, we came back to Barcelona with 4 goals in our net, same players, same coach.
You think it isn't comparable because you don't want it to be comparable. We're not comparing what he did in 2006 to what Ronaldo has done in 2019, just finding out if he was a passenger in that team, or if he had an important enough part to stop saying "don't count that trophy".
Personally, I don't hold it against him, I hold it against the idea some of his fanboys sell here that Portugal winning a final without him, puts his International legacy above Messi losing a WC and 2 Copa America finals.
His trophy is well earned, nothing against him on that, but Eder scoring a goal doesn't make his career better than Messi because Higuain missed 2, it's nonsense.
Fair enough and agree with this.
He is not the key player, and not even a regular player during that campaign. I am not saying he has zero contribution, or not good enough, but winning the 2006 CL has more to do with Ronaldinho, Etoo, Deco & Co. etc, and the regulars, rather than Messi, who has barely feature in knockout stages (ie majority of the important games), and spent most of his time on bench or not playing in that season (for whatever reason, too young, injury or foreigner rules etc). I just think it is unfair and disrespect to Ronaldhino & Co., if people give credits to Messi in winning 2006 CL.
Messi has 3 other CL titles and 7 other La Liga titles, where he has been the key player/main reason for Barca of winning those, he doesn't need to resort in taking a few more credits away from others. 04-05, 05-06 La Liga, 05-06 CL truly belongs to Ronaldinho & Co.
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Yes, but a player of Messi's quality shouldn't be shutout like that in three finals. I mean I'd say fair fecks if they leaked goals and just happened to have been outscored, but they conceded a grand total of 1 ET goal in all three finals. If you told me in 2012 or 2013 that Messi will be shutout like that in three consecutive finals, I would say you'd have gone crazy. I still find it very hard to believe.
Well, I'm not saying he was the most important player in that team, or even top #5 in importance in that UCL run, just that he has that trophy, he did his part, and having to almost say "sorry" if you add it to his silverware is stupid. Like I said, we don't count Pelé as a 2 1/2 world cup winner, he won 3, Messi played a bunch of game, he even was key in an specific game, maybe the 3rd hardest leg of the whole run, he wasn't the star? Right, we have to leave it that trophy out? Abolutely not.
Well, it's a small sample, even "The king of the UCL" can be completely shut down in four finals, he was a non-factor vs Barcelona, Atletico (twice) and Liverpool. Surely it doesn't help him surpass Pelé or Maradona for example, but it isn't something that brings down his whole career, at least he reached 3 international finals in a row, right?.
Ronaldos been better 4 out of the past 5 years but imo no matter if Juve win the Champions League Messi has been better this year and should win balon d'or
I wouldn't give credits to bit part players in winning campaign. Yes he will always have the medal and his name in winning it, anyone who features a few games would have it too (ie Greening in 2009). But Messi is too big for that. It is like Kane taking credits in the goal he didn't scored or touch, not saying he doesn't play an "indirect" part in the goal (his jumping/movement may cause some distraction to the keeper etc).
The fact that Ronaldo doesn't get involved in build up play like he used to in his United days tell me Messi is the better player. Look at Messi in 2005 and now, there's no change and he basically scores the same amount of goals per season as Ronaldo despite having to get involved in everything. It's not like Messi is a young kid anymore, i'm sure it would be better for his energy levels and for his body overall if he just stayed in the box waiting, but he overcomes his physical problems (compared to when he was in his 20's) and gets involved in everything anyway. When Ronaldo was 31 or 32 he had already long abandoned that playmaking involvement.
In the end of the day what stands is he WON it. Period. He did not Play in the final but they would not have got out of even the group stage had it not been for him. I’ll also go one step further and say that IF Ronaldo had the luxury of playing in THREE FINALS he would have AT LEAST won ONE and that is what separates them. Does anyone here honestly think Ronaldo loses 3 finals in a row? Honestly and unbiasedly? Also Messi has been to only 1 more final then Ronaldo as Ronaldo was an integral part and scored crucial goals on route to the Euro 2004 final which he started and scored in the semis and R16.
That is not even coming into play the fact that throughout their national careers Messi has played in much better national team teams (I worded their weird). So yes his international is above Messi that much is not in question.
"Messi has played in much better national team teams"
You clearly dont know what a mess the argentinian team is.
Argentina without Messi played like 5 or 6 times in the World Cup 2018 qualif. and didnt win once. They would not even play the world cup without him.
I don't know why he decided to come back. He should have retired and watch them lose all games without him.
You clearly dont know what a mess the argentinian team is.
Argentina without Messi played like 5 or 6 times in the World Cup 2018 qualif. and didnt win once. They would not even play the world cup without him.
I don't know why he decided to come back. He should have retired and watch them lose all games without him.
Why on earth are united fans hoping for a Barcelona Juve final!? You know we are still in this right
He just doesn't have that opportunistic mindset to let go of the ball and wait for the right moment to strike. He always wants to control the game and have the ball at his feet. There's a certain hubris in it, but also playfulness and exuberance. Monopolizing the ball doesn't always work in nervous knockout ties where the most important thing is to avoid making mistakes and to punish opposition mistakes. Better coaching would solve this problem though.
Aguero Higuaín dI Maria mascherano Otamendi. Just to name a few compared to Postiga Hugo Almeida Raul meireles and Veloso.... are you actually kidding ?
Yeah, he chose to do nothing in 3 of his last 4 UCL finals because he just wanted to let his teammates shine, if he wants, he wins.
Mental.
Also are we handing out participation trophies now? And rewarding a player for getting to 3 finals and LOSING? That makes as much sense as saying Lebron is better then Jordan because he got to more finals but lost most of them. I didn’t know getting second place was seen as a reward now. it must be the modern day way of thinking.
Messi scores a hattrick versus Sevilla, the Messi thread is the only one to get bumped.
Ronaldo scores a hattrick versus Atletico, the versus thread gets bumped.
Woo-hoo, we got to the semis!
Ronaldo scores a hattrick versus Atletico, the versus thread gets bumped.
To be fair, the English do it a lot. "We" are so proud of a world cup where we beats Columbia & Sweden
Woo-hoo, we got to the semis!He did “nothing” is a overreaction and you still never answered my question. If Ronaldo got 2 3 finals in a row he would won 1 of them. For Portugal he got to 2 and won 1. Lazy debate. Ronaldo has a batter legacy for his national team. Let’s not even talk about the great mentality of a goat which is quitting and retiring on your team.
Higuain is shit in big games, we all know he never scored a big-game goal like Eder (lol). Agüero -I don't know why- never played at his top level in the national team. Mascherano was amazing but he lacked a playmaker with him like Moutinho -they had Biglia-. Otamendi is a decent CB but worse than Carvalho or Pepe. DiMaria had back luck with injuries in the crucial 2014 world cup. Portugal always had a very solid team with Patricio-Pepe-Carvalho(B.Alves)-Coentrao, an underrated MF like Moutinho and pace wingers with Nani & co.
Messi played a fantastic final in the copa america against chile (the second one). I bet you didnt watch the game and only looked the score.
only barca fans will argue that Argentina is a weaker team than Portugal's.
Ronaldo is the better player because he played for Manchester United.
When Messi is not on the ball he is by far away the laziest player on the pitch. Even the staunchest Barca fans always highlight the fact that he rarely runs off the ball and basically walks around all game (which they can accept most times because he’s Messi). I once read a stat from 2014 where he covered less ground than the opposing GK in a game they lost. So it’s not really an issue of him “overcoming physical problems.”
It truly is laughable. He played alongside Postiga Hugo Almeida no midfield besides 1 player and a decent back line. I can name 4 world class players Messi player with.
But but but they all underperformed or need a perfect environment alongside them. Icardi and dybala don't play for Argentina because of messi, both would be the second best Portugal player if they were Portuguese.
I stopped reading after you put aguero and higuain and Eder in the same sentence. It lost all credibility.
imagine if Messi played with Postiga and Almeida for the bulk of his career and with Veloso and Meireles as his midfield.
yeah this is quite underrated aspect of his game. his choice of pass and decision making is always correct and very rarely loses the ball.
It's definitely a dent on his legacy, in my opinion. I'd bank on him to score against any opponent over 90 minutes if the game was that important. I could even sort of perhaps understand if Messi had won these competitions before. But these were the three most important moments of his national career! Those matches lasted a total of 6 hours and just scoring once would have probably won any of them! This guy has a career average of about a goal a game, ffs!
Would be retiring annually.
No panic mode, I admire what Ronaldo did. He showed up brilliantly for Juventus, huge huge game from Ronaldo. He showed Juve they were right to sign him. He carried so much weight and delivered, it's actually awesome to see. I have no problem praising Ronaldo when he does something like this.
The problem for me were the over-reactions and the whole PR bullsh*t in that final. I remember someone even said that Ronaldo was key in winning that game because he was spurring the team on from the sidelines and that Eder channeled Ronaldo to score that goal. You know, insane stuff. If anything, Ronaldo disrespected his coach by jumping along the sidelines. His team didn't need any tactical direction from Ronaldo, they had enough from their coach and for me it was a PR stunt. He was injured but wanted to be in the spotlight. His team won the final against France without him, he didn't contribute by cheering from the bench, it's as simple as that. It doesn't take anything away from him, though, it's not his fault he was injured. He was a key player for his team, helped them to the final so fair play to him and congrats on the title.
But to use that as an argument why he is superior to Messi is not right, that's the point some of us are trying to make. Not that the trophy should be omitted from Ronaldo's cabinet, but that he didn't do more in that tournament than Messi had done in World Cup 2014, yet Messi is viewed as a failure on NT level for losing a final while Ronaldo is viewed as a legend for his team winning a final he had no part in. One Eder goal less and Ronaldo is a lesser player? No. One Higuain goal more and Messi is bigger than Maradona? No.
Generally I don't like to see players hogging the spotlight, and this is something Ronaldo does a lot. He even gets praised for it. Think back to the Juventus tie last season. While Madrid were conceding goals at home, the camera would show Ronaldo yell something and clap his hands as if to motivate his team. It didn't help, apparently, because they were still conceding goals, but that didn't stop people from praising Ronaldo's leadership skills. They advanced due to a refereeing mistake, but Ronaldo clapping his hands after every goal somehow meant he was a leader in that game. On the other hand, Barcelona gets eliminated by Roma without Messi putting on a PR performance and he is criticized for not being a leader. Probably because the camera didn't catch him yell anything.
So for me personally, I don't knock Ronaldo for missing that final, he won an international trophy and good on him. It's the other stuff that blows it out of proportion.
It's funny to me that people can so easily discard some key things in football. I mean, we talk about them every day, and yet when it's Messi vs Ronaldo, suddenly many people act like they know next to nothing about this sport.
It's been said many a time that Messi has had a better environment than Ronaldo for most of his career and therefore should have won more. In my opinion, this is not true for the simple fact that people conveniently dismiss one tiny detail, and that's the coach. You know, the person who actually runs the team. What good are world class players on your roster if they won't be coached well, if the team will lack chemistry and direction? Messi played in a star-studded team in 2006/07 and 2007/08 and won nothing because Rijkaard failed to coach the team properly after the CL win. We had Ronaldinho, Eto'o', Deco, Thuram, Zambrotta among others and won nothing. Football is not as simple as just looking at names on paper, it's how they're set up, how the team is managed.
Ronaldo had these managers: SAF, Pellegrini, Mourinho, Ancelotti, Benitez, Zidane, Allegri.
Messi had Rijkaard, Guardiola, Tito Vilanova (the late Tito was ill, it was mostly Jordi Roura for a season), Tata Martino, Luis Enrique, Ernesto Valverde.
They both play(ed) with some amazing players. I think Messi had the better team mates overall for the better part of his career, but we know it's not just about the names on the roster. Even if Messi's team mates were a bit better than Ronaldo's, it's a bit different when it comes to managers. And managers can make a world of difference. It's the same thing with Argentina vs Portugal. Portugal don't have such big names on their roster, but they are better as a team, they function better as a unit and this makes it easier for them to play knockout competitions. Hence teams like Atletico being able to eliminate teams like Barcelona and City. Hence Portugal being able to win an international tournament against France.
I didn't think something like this could be completely ignored by so many people. Argentina are a mess, how do you even call them a team anymore?
The staunchest Barcelona fans know Messi should be doing this to preserve energy. He had a few injuries in 2005-2008 and then Pep took over and told him to rest during games. The idea was that Messi would play (to enable him to influence the game, which he can't do if he's not on the pitch), but that he'd rest during the match by walking around and waiting for his chance to strike. Messi is an extremely intelligent player who doesn't need to run a lot to change the game. We don't have him on the pitch to mark players and put in defensive shifts, he's there to win games for us and he does that. Anyone who pays attention to how Messi plays and why will tell you this.
So no, I don't tolerate it because he's Messi, I tolerate it because he does so much for Barcelona going forward that I'd rather he didn't exert himself defending and risk getting injured. It's a matter of priorities and tactics. It's the job of others to run more, cover space and make sliding tackles, because if Messi did that he wouldn't be as effective building attacks because it would be physically impossible to do as much when you're defending. Can't ask Messi to defend, create and score all at once. He does two out of three and that's already more than any other player does.
All of that has nothing to do with the quality of players, if Portugal function better than Argentina despite having lesser players it points to a flaw in Argentina and messi game but despite that the quality of the two team remains incomparable.
And messi pretty much picks the coach at barca.
Discounting Messi's one UCL is not right, but at the same time, giving him too much credit about it, is not right too. Ronaldo won 5 UCLs as main player, Messi won 3 as main player, and one as bit-part player. Same about league titles, all those of Ronaldo came when he was the main player, while in the first two of Messi (especially in the first) he was more like a squad player and nowhere near the top players of his team.
So, I think the truth is in the middle. He should get some credit for those trophies, but not too much of it. Let's say that Dybala surpasses Ronaldo in a year or two, and they win UCL and/or league, same should go for Ronaldo (or well Messi, when Dembele surpasses him).
At this point, whether we want to admit it or not, we can all agree that Ronaldo is a better player than messi; messi is great, Ronaldo is greater...but, that shouldn't stop us from appreciating these two phenomenons, they've defined this modern era of football and have set the pace for the upcoming generations.
We should just enjoy them both without the cyber fisticuffs
We should just enjoy them both without the cyber fisticuffs
Bar the fact that we cannot.
You talk as if Messi never needed anyone to bail him out, the Scandal of Stamford Bridge ring any bells?
Either Ovebro or Iniesta bailed him out, no?
Messi is an overall better footballer but Ronaldo is a bigger clutch player.
Both have unparallelled stats in the modern era and should both be enjoyed instead of an unhealthy infatuation with either.
Both have unparallelled stats in the modern era and should both be enjoyed instead of an unhealthy infatuation with either.
Messi is lucky that this is called the beautiful game cos all he does is play a more beautiful version of football than Ronaldo.
However Ronaldo doesn't care about beauty and just wants to get the Job done. Messi is a ballerina and Ronaldo is a hitman.
However Ronaldo doesn't care about beauty and just wants to get the Job done. Messi is a ballerina and Ronaldo is a hitman.
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