- Joined
- Dec 31, 2007
- Messages
- 86,641
Jacinda Ardern has been brilliant with her reaction to this. I think she's great.
I miss living there so much. It just felt like everyone still had basic human decency there, best place in the world for me. That's so good from Air NZ as well.NZ has been absolutely amazing throughout this tragedy. Got this a message from a friend whose relative was shot dead.
- Immediately called it terrorism.
- NZ flag at half mast
- Raised over £2.5 so far
- Gun laws changed
- Mosques now patrolled
- Sincere mourning throughout the country
- Prime Minister meeting all Islamic leaders
- Multiple vigils throughout NZ
- Major events cancelled
- NZ's supporting and escorting Muslims in case of fear
- No fake news and genuine disgust at terror attack
- Some local companies providing water and fruit at vigils
- Government paying funeral costs
- Air NZ lowered air costs so people could visit those mourning and wanting to attend funerals
- Made it illegal to repost videos
- Classified as a national tragedy
They've set the standard after just one major incident. America's response to a tragedy like this has always been terrible, but this just amplifies that. The NZ PM is brilliant.NZ has been absolutely amazing throughout this tragedy. Got this a message from a friend whose relative was shot dead.
- Immediately called it terrorism.
- NZ flag at half mast
- Raised over £2.5 so far
- Gun laws changed
- Mosques now patrolled
- Sincere mourning throughout the country
- Prime Minister meeting all Islamic leaders
- Multiple vigils throughout NZ
- Major events cancelled
- NZ's supporting and escorting Muslims in case of fear
- No fake news and genuine disgust at terror attack
- Some local companies providing water and fruit at vigils
- Government paying funeral costs
- Air NZ lowered air costs so people could visit those mourning and wanting to attend funerals
- Made it illegal to repost videos
- Classified as a national tragedy
I can't agree with you on that I'm afraid. Aboriginals were exploited or murdered in masses followed by forced assimilation and cultural genocide. You've brought up one of the darkest periods of our (short) history that we're only begun to acknowledge and atone for.Our country was built on cooperation, because when European settlers first arrived they had no choice. They welcomed assistance and advice from the indigenous peoples and the those in settler communities looked out for one and other. Without this collective effort they all would have froze to death, something that happened on a fair few occasions anyway.
That's funny, because there are still a million and a half of us left. Originally, especially in Quebec, there was a good deal of cooperation between indigenous people and settlers, granted it was not always rosy. After the wars against the French, the British enlisted the indigenous tribes to fight against the Americans in the war of 1812, where their warriors fought with bravery and distinction. It was only later that bad things became more institutionalized. Prior to the British North America act and the Indian Act things were a lot more reasonable. But with the passing of those legislative acts we became a "problem" and had to be solved, which resulted in things getting bad for us.I can't agree with you on that I'm afraid. Aboriginals were exploited or murdered in masses followed by forced assimilation and cultural genocide. You've brought up one of the darkest periods of our (short) history that we're only begun to acknowledge and atone for.
I know that snuff video is bad, and those who watches it religiously especially those who gain pleasure of it should be chastised. However, I didn’t know us regular people who just want to understand how the event transpired can be criticized for it as well. It is like calling out an investigator, concerned citizen or a freelance investigator for watching a snuff video when there only motivate is to understand what happened and how they can prevent such an event from happening again. Eitherway, I know my motives for watching the video wasn’t to get of to it and this is perhaps my first snuff video that I have seen because it was everywhere on Twitter. I understand your perspective to why you to think it is wrong, I just believe that perspective is targeted towards the wrong person.The Pete Townsend defence.
Not trying winding you up but if you watch snuff videos you ought to be called out for it. There is a reason this stuff gets banned. And there is a reason media outlets that posted this get criticised.
Could not disagree more.There is an difference between commenting on the actions of an evil man, and consuming them. And frankly watching these videos is more like voyeurism than understanding'. Let's be clear about this - watching murder videos is sick - in the old sense of the word.
I cant imagine how grim it would be knowing there was video footage of someone you loved dieing. I'd say there'd be a real temptation to watch it and i cant imagine that being at all healthyEarlier in this thread I said that the reason not to watch it was to respect the victims. I always think we should put ourselves in the place of the family - if it were your father or brother being shot, would you want countless strangers looking at their anguish over and over again?
Respect that you've put a lot of thought and research into this topic. I've met a lot of people in Montreal who were oblivious to it. The government of Canada has a lot of improvement to make in that area. Trudeau was on the right path but really dropped it with Wilson-Raybould.That's
I lean more towards this.Could not disagree more.
Not only would I defend watching the video, I would have liked the mainstream media to straight up show it to everyone. It actually bothers me that they’re censoring it.
There’s a reason the right wing goons immediately called for people to avoid it. God forbid the people see where this ideaology can ultimately lead. God forbid they see the horror inflicted on these poor people they’ve done so much to dehumanise. It’s easy to downplay murder when it’s just another mass shooting, just another bombing or in the case of war, just more “collateral damage.” Easy to hide the carnage and suffering behind words and statistics.
The idea that people would relate to the killer or sympathise with his twisted worldview upon seeing the footage is just insane. And anyone who would is so far gone that it’s hardly significant one way or the other. Throughout recent history visual exposure of such atrocities has done a lot to increase empathy with the victims, to snap them out of any grand delusions - Vietnam, Auschwitz, Iraq etc. - It’s not voyeurism, it’s reality and it should be exposed rather than hidden away.
Watching the video was heartbreaking, traumatising and hugely infuriating - The way it should be. No words could ever do it justice.
I've only seen the image of Till's bloated, mutilated face a few times. I can never forget it. Not will I forget that it was virulent and violent racism and racist ideology that caused this.There was just no way I could describe what was in that box. No way. And I just wanted the world to see.
If my brother was shot by a racist cnut, yes. I would want the world, including strangers, to see the end result of racism. It may not convert a racist, but it may shock those who otherwise tweet "thoughts and prayers" into more forceful action.Earlier in this thread I said that the reason not to watch it was to respect the victims. I always think we should put ourselves in the place of the family - if it were your father or brother being shot, would you want countless strangers looking at their anguish over and over again?
I'm a Status Indian so I know a thing or two. There is a lot to do, for sure.Respect that you've put a lot of thought and research into this topic. I've met a lot of people in Montreal who were oblivious to it. The government of Canada has a lot of improvement to make in that area. Trudeau was on the right path but really dropped it with Wilson-Raybould.
Well said.Could not disagree more.
Not only would I defend watching the video, I would have liked the mainstream media to straight up show it to everyone. It actually bothers me that they’re censoring it.
There’s a reason the right wing goons immediately called for people to avoid it. God forbid the people see where this ideaology can ultimately lead. God forbid they see the horror inflicted on these poor people they’ve done so much to dehumanise. It’s easy to downplay murder when it’s just another mass shooting, just another bombing or in the case of war, just more “collateral damage.” Easy to hide the carnage and suffering behind words and statistics.
The idea that people would relate to the killer or sympathise with his twisted worldview upon seeing the footage is just insane. And anyone who would is so far gone that it’s hardly significant one way or the other. Throughout recent history visual exposure of such atrocities has done a lot to increase empathy with the victims, to snap them out of any grand delusions - Vietnam, Auschwitz, Iraq etc. - It’s not voyeurism, it’s reality and it should be exposed rather than hidden away.
Watching the video was heartbreaking, traumatising and hugely infuriating - The way it should be. No words could ever do it justice.
I'm quite sure the family of the dead would very strongly disagree with the idea that mainstream media should broadcast a video of their loved ones being murdered. I'm not sure why the media (or anyone else) would think that their own version of using those images for political ends would take precedent over dealing with the actual human cost of the incident. I'll happily sit out a grim, nightmarish world where people have to endure their loved ones' terrified, brutal final moments being broadcast back to them as part of a 24 news cycle just so a portion (and likely only a small portion) of those consuming this new content get to feel like some abstract point has been proven.Could not disagree more.
Not only would I defend watching the video, I would have liked the mainstream media to straight up show it to everyone. It actually bothers me that they’re censoring it.
There’s a reason the right wing goons immediately called for people to avoid it. God forbid the people see where this ideaology can ultimately lead. God forbid they see the horror inflicted on these poor people they’ve done so much to dehumanise. It’s easy to downplay murder when it’s just another mass shooting, just another bombing or in the case of war, just more “collateral damage.” Easy to hide the carnage and suffering behind words and statistics.
The idea that people would relate to the killer or sympathise with his twisted worldview upon seeing the footage is just insane. And anyone who would is so far gone that it’s hardly significant one way or the other. Throughout recent history visual exposure of such atrocities has done a lot to increase empathy with the victims, to snap them out of any grand delusions - Vietnam, Auschwitz, Iraq etc. - It’s not voyeurism, it’s reality and it should be exposed rather than hidden away.
Watching the video was heartbreaking, traumatising and hugely infuriating - The way it should be. No words could ever do it justice.
I agree with you.I'm quite sure the family of the dead would very strongly disagree with the idea that mainstream media should broadcast a video of their loved ones being murdered. I'm not sure why the media (or anyone else) would think that their own version of using those images for political ends would take precedent over dealing with the actual human cost of the incident. I'll happily sit out a grim, nightmarish world where people have to endure their loved ones' terrified, brutal final moments being broadcast back to them as part of a 24 news cycle just so a portion (and likely only a small portion) of those consuming this new content get to feel like some abstract point has been proven.
I'm quite sure the family of the dead would very strongly disagree with the idea that mainstream media should broadcast a video of their loved ones being murdered.
When does it become okay though? Because it definitely does. There’s no shortage of filmed murder shown in any documentary covering a genocide. And it is included specifically because it is meant to show the brutality of the act so that hopefully it deters it from happening again.I agree with you.
That type of stuff is well after the fact though, I don't know if many people will have objections to viewing the footage in 40 years time but within a week of the massacre is too soon.When does it become okay though? Because it definitely does. There’s no shortage of filmed murder shown in any documentary covering a genocide. And it is included specifically because it is meant to show the brutality of the act so that hopefully it deters it from happening again.
Not to mention the killer wants the video to be shown and playing it literally gives into what he would want to happen. The people who don't want to see it will just change channels or close the browser.I'm quite sure the family of the dead would very strongly disagree with the idea that mainstream media should broadcast a video of their loved ones being murdered. I'm not sure why the media (or anyone else) would think that their own version of using those images for political ends would take precedent over dealing with the actual human cost of the incident. I'll happily sit out a grim, nightmarish world where people have to endure their loved ones' terrified, brutal final moments being broadcast back to them as part of a 24 news cycle just so a portion (and likely only a small portion) of those consuming this new content get to feel like some abstract point has been proven.
This, 100%.I'm quite sure the family of the dead would very strongly disagree with the idea that mainstream media should broadcast a video of their loved ones being murdered. I'm not sure why the media (or anyone else) would think that their own version of using those images for political ends would take precedent over dealing with the actual human cost of the incident. I'll happily sit out a grim, nightmarish world where people have to endure their loved ones' terrified, brutal final moments being broadcast back to them as part of a 24 news cycle just so a portion (and likely only a small portion) of those consuming this new content get to feel like some abstract point has been proven.
I’d definitely say that there needs to be a period where it’s not shown publicly out of respect for those in mourning, absolutely. I was just wondering as to what people thought in regards to the time table. It isn’t just videos on genocide either, to be honest. They’ve shown the footage of the Columbine school shooting in recent years as well. It definitely isn’t a “cut and dry” issue, in my opinion.That type of stuff is well after the fact though, I don't know if many people will have objections to viewing the footage in 40 years time but within a week of the massacre is too soon.
I think the 40 years was just a number he grabbed from nowhere, but this was still 20 years ago and by anyone's definition, well after the fact.I’d definitely say that there needs to be a period where it’s not shown publicly out of respect for those in mourning, absolutely. I was just wondering as to what people thought in regards to the time table. It isn’t just videos on genocide either, to be honest. They’ve shown the footage of the Columbine school shooting in recent years as well. It definitely isn’t a “cut and dry” issue, in my opinion.
Because they exists doesn't make it definitely ok.When does it become okay though? Because it definitely does. There’s no shortage of filmed murder shown in any documentary covering a genocide. And it is included specifically because it is meant to show the brutality of the act so that hopefully it deters it from happening again.
I think the 40 years was just a number he grabbed from nowhere, but this was still 20 years ago and by anyone's definition, well after the fact.
I know he wasn’t trying to set a hard number there. I’m just talking about other events like this one that have eventually made their way to mainstream media. Again, I don’t know what the timetable is, but there definitely seems to be one. It’s a gray area.Because they exists doesn't make it definitely ok.
It depends a lot on the context? You'd expect to see horrific scenes if you watched a documentary on a war or whatever and you'd expect them to have some warning or certification if it was going to really go into the gory details. Having it presented as part of the nightly news is a different matter. The internet skews things seeing as the nightly news doesn't exactly exist anymore, i suppose.I know he wasn’t trying to set a hard number there. I’m just talking about other events like this one that have eventually made their way to mainstream media. Again, I don’t know what the timetable is, but there definitely seems to be one. It’s a gray area.
I agree with everything you’ve said here.It depends a lot on the context? You'd expect to see horrific scenes if you watched a documentary on a war or whatever and you'd expect them to have some warning or certification if it was going to really go into the gory details. Having it presented as part of the nightly news is a different matter. The internet skews things seeing as the nightly news doesn't exactly exist anymore, i suppose.
But... Freedom of speech. Or something.About memes generally:
See, I'm not so dumb that I don't understand the meme potential of this. But I also think that it is a (in this case, extremely thin) cover for endorsing genocide.
Could not disagree more.
Not only would I defend watching the video, I would have liked the mainstream media to straight up show it to everyone. It actually bothers me that they’re censoring it.
There’s a reason the right wing goons immediately called for people to avoid it. God forbid the people see where this ideaology can ultimately lead. God forbid they see the horror inflicted on these poor people they’ve done so much to dehumanise. It’s easy to downplay murder when it’s just another mass shooting, just another bombing or in the case of war, just more “collateral damage.” Easy to hide the carnage and suffering behind words and statistics.
The idea that people would relate to the killer or sympathise with his twisted worldview upon seeing the footage is just insane. And anyone who would is so far gone that it’s hardly significant one way or the other. Throughout recent history visual exposure of such atrocities has done a lot to increase empathy with the victims, to snap them out of any grand delusions - Vietnam, Auschwitz, Iraq etc. - It’s not voyeurism, it’s reality and it should be exposed rather than hidden away.
Watching the video was heartbreaking, traumatising and hugely infuriating - The way it should be. No words could ever do it justice.
+1 One of the best post I have read on Redcafe.Well said.
Ironically, the one thing we should not tolerate is intolerance. Otherwise intolerance permeates through all of society.But... Freedom of speech. Or something.
Oppressed racist people. Not being able to say the racist things they want.
I understand the argument about showing it to demonstrate the potential end-point of unchecked racism, and maybe in years to come it'll be used in that way - just like the images of bodies at the concentration camps are often shown nowadays.When does it become okay though? Because it definitely does. There’s no shortage of filmed murder shown in any documentary covering a genocide. And it is included specifically because it is meant to show the brutality of the act so that hopefully it deters it from happening again.
There's truth in both standpoints in this discussion, and I feel this is the best way to deal with it. (I understand the one week / 40 years timeframe is just for illustration.) But because there's truth to both standpoints, I wouldn't criticise anyone for handling it differently.That type of stuff is well after the fact though, I don't know if many people will have objections to viewing the footage in 40 years time but within a week of the massacre is too soon.
I agree with you. I was surprised when I read in this thread that there's people arguing that everyone "should" watch it, I don't see any reason for anyone to watch it other than the prosecution (and family members if it somehow helps them, although I don't believe it can).Earlier in this thread I said that the reason not to watch it was to respect the victims. I always think we should put ourselves in the place of the family - if it were your father or brother being shot, would you want countless strangers looking at their anguish over and over again?
Indeed.I understand the argument about showing it to demonstrate the potential end-point of unchecked racism, and maybe in years to come it'll be used in that way - just like the images of bodies at the concentration camps are often shown nowadays.
However, I strongly suspect that many people who actively sought out this vid were just wanting to see something awful, for whatever personal reason. Most of the victims haven't even been buried yet, we know who a lot of them are, we've seen their faces online and read their stories. It's too close to be comfortable, in my view.
When my parents died they were both fortunate enough to be in their own home, with their loved ones. I have often felt grateful for that, having seen a lot of people end their days in hospitals surrounded by strangers. At your most vulnerable moment, it's a blessing to have privacy. These poor people who've been murdered deserve that small concession.
Hearing about it was heart breaking, traumatisingand infuriating. Just like every other attack of its kind. It's simply not true that you need video evidence to feel that. There is nothing new that you can glean from this that you couldn't have gleaned from watching a right wing inspired mass murder from years ago, or from simply reading about this one. The reason you chose to watch the video of this event was not to inspire those feelings.Could not disagree more.
Not only would I defend watching the video, I would have liked the mainstream media to straight up show it to everyone. It actually bothers me that they’re censoring it.
There’s a reason the right wing goons immediately called for people to avoid it. God forbid the people see where this ideaology can ultimately lead. God forbid they see the horror inflicted on these poor people they’ve done so much to dehumanise. It’s easy to downplay murder when it’s just another mass shooting, just another bombing or in the case of war, just more “collateral damage.” Easy to hide the carnage and suffering behind words and statistics.
The idea that people would relate to the killer or sympathise with his twisted worldview upon seeing the footage is just insane. And anyone who would is so far gone that it’s hardly significant one way or the other. Throughout recent history visual exposure of such atrocities has done a lot to increase empathy with the victims, to snap them out of any grand delusions - Vietnam, Auschwitz, Iraq etc. - It’s not voyeurism, it’s reality and it should be exposed rather than hidden away.
Watching the video was heartbreaking, traumatising and hugely infuriating - The way it should be. No words could ever do it justice.
That's a pretty compelling example, but substantively different on two points.I lean more towards this.
Reminds me of when Emmitt Till, a black boy, was lynched in Mississippi by white men after being accused of speaking to a white woman. When it came time for the burial in Chicago, his mother insisted on an open casket, saying:
I've only seen the image of Till's bloated, mutilated face a few times. I can never forget it. Not will I forget that it was virulent and violent racism and racist ideology that caused this.
If my brother was shot by a racist cnut, yes. I would want the world, including strangers, to see the end result of racism. It may not convert a racist, but it may shock those who otherwise tweet "thoughts and prayers" into more forceful action.