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To avoid the economic ruin which would be brought by a no deal Brexit, and the pointlessness and loss of influence that would come with any of the other variations.Likewise. The point in staying is?
To avoid the economic ruin which would be brought by a no deal Brexit, and the pointlessness and loss of influence that would come with any of the other variations.Likewise. The point in staying is?
Where is your historic data to prove this?To avoid the economic ruin which would be brought by a no deal Brexit, and the pointlessness and loss of influence that would come with any of the other variations.
There have been a ton of studies done on the impact of Brexit and how it'll stifle the economy.Where is your historic data to prove this?
By stopping freedom of movement from EU countries to the UK@Strachans Cigar could you answer my question about why you think leaving the EU will help control immigration?
And all the remainers have been calling everyone else a racist for 3 years and wondering why the polls are barely flickering. Maybe Brwned was right in all his smugnessIt's noticeable how for a good while now pro-Brexit arguments have basically been predicated on complaints against the other side as opposed to any coherent or logical argument in favour of Brexit.
That doesn't explain anything. We are capable of stopping/reducing non-EU immigration already, but don't. We're capable of throttling EU immigration to some extent, but don't.By stopping freedom of movement from EU countries to the UK
Re: non EU immigration, that obviously needs to be looked at and re evaluated.
I’d expect quotas to be flexible & change at frequent intervals to maintain a preferred approximate population level.
Are you really, seriously, asking me that?I dont want to wind anyone up but too late i guess. So you understand other peoples opinions that differ to yours? Simple question.
You're literally proving my point.And all the remainers have been calling everyone else a racist for 3 years and wondering why the polls are barely flickering. Maybe Brwned was right in all his smugness
The sharp spike of non-EU migrants coming here since Brexit (due to the falling number of EU migrants) shows the government don't want to bring down the numbers at all, even if they're comfortable demonising and scapegoating migrants.That doesn't explain anything. We are capable of stopping/reducing non-EU immigration already, but don't. We're capable of throttling EU immigration to some extent, but don't.
Why would having full control of EU immigration make the government suddenly choose to stop/reduce it? Every indication suggests they won't. So what will change?
no I'm not sure who you're confusing me with but I was born in Belfast, have both a UK and Irish passport, and have lived in England for this whole decade.Hold up, aren't you Danish anyway? So I'm not sure you could have voted, even if you wanted to? Happy to be proven wrong if that isn't the case...
The reason that immigration hasn't been reduced isn't because we haven't used that caveat to control EU immigration. There have been more non-EU migrants than EU migrants in every quarter this decade. It wasn't the EU that forced us to let those non-EU folks in, it was the UK government.We don’t have full control of (EU) immigration because of freedom of movement. A caveat (of sorts) was pointed out earlier, but even that hasn’t been exercised, so I have no faith in the UK government suddenly changing policy if remaining.
Got to go now, sorry. Not bailing out of the debate, honest!
But see what you're saying doesn't really make sense. Essentially your main reason for leaving the EU, as stated above, is to reduce immigration and control it (which you already do) to stop the population growing, but trends are already showing that leaving the EU isn't going to stop it, or even in any way reduce it. So what's the point of leaving the EU if it's not going to give you what you want and just cause, as you said yourself, the economy to get hammered?
Do you think leaving will reduce immigration then?
The government has had every chance to curb non-EU immigration, but hasn't. What will change if we leave the EU?
Because we would no longer be members of the EU.That doesn't explain anything. We are capable of stopping/reducing non-EU immigration already, but don't. We're capable of throttling EU immigration to some extent, but don't.
Why would having full control of EU immigration make the government suddenly choose to stop/reduce it? Every indication suggests they won't. So what will change?
I'm not following your reasoning, sorry. If being out of the EU fixes it, then why has non-EU immigration been so high all these years?Because we would no longer be members of the EU.
If, after leaving, the Lab/Con sitting government don’t lower those levels tangibly as would reasonably be expected after leaving the EU, maybe the anti government/establishment protest vote would then increase, until somebody like Farage ends up as PM. Haha.
Then again, maybe not. We’re British. We put up with a lot before getting throughly p*ssed off enough about things to do something about them don’t we?
Ive not claimed it totally fixes it.I'm not following your reasoning, sorry. If being out of the EU fixes it, then why has non-EU immigration been so high all these years?
So if immigration is your only point of contention, and you were hoping for government to try to solve it. Knowing that the EU were not stopping you/them, why vote to leave? Ignoring the potential upheaval....Ive not claimed it totally fixes it.
Already said we need to look at levels of non-EU immigration too & re-evaluate that process?
I don't think it's that necessarily cheesy.The sharp spike of non-EU migrants coming here since Brexit (due to the falling number of EU migrants) shows the government don't want to bring down the numbers at all, even if they're comfortable demonising and scapegoating migrants.
So you voted for financial hardship to fix a problem that won't be fixed. Okay.Ive not claimed it totally fixes it.
Already said we need to look at levels of non-EU immigration too & re-evaluate that process?
Okay yeah but you've said that's why you think we should leave, which suggests you think it'll at least reduce it to some degree.Ive not claimed it totally fixes it.
Already said we need to look at levels of non-EU immigration too & re-evaluate that process?
Why won’t it be fixed? If we are dictating the rules of entry, then I don’t share that view.So you voted for financial hardship to fix a problem that won't be fixed. Okay.
For the reasons detailed a few times which you keep ignoring.Why won’t it be fixed? If we are dictating the rules of entry, then I don’t share that view.
Anyway, spent way too much time on this thread during the course of today, I’m off, so we’ll agree to disagree
Over populations is a problem everywhere.
The funny thing is that in the UK you see teenage mums with a bunch of kids in buggies, more so than other EU countries imho. Sex education is the key
I entirely agree. I’ve gotten to the age now where not only have most of my friends got married and had kids, but that several of them are now having/trying for their second! (I’m early 30s).
Sex education, and also I would be trying to make some serious changes to the child welfare system to try not to incentivise people to have more than one child.
The feck is everyone talking about? Europe's problem is not overpopulation - the EU's birth rate is 1.6. Replacement rate is 2.1.Population growth is a concern for most countries. But I rather doubt either Euthanasia or the death penalty is an effective control for population growth. It is, surely, a miniscule number of people/families that would rather be euthanised? And the death penalty would hardly make a dent also, even if you kill all the inmates currently serving life sentences in the UK (<10k).
This is not to say it is not fine if you support these positions from a moral/political perspective.
Ok forecasts, no historic data. Weather forecast for today was great. Turned oit cloudy and a bit chilly actually.There have been a ton of studies done on the impact of Brexit and how it'll stifle the economy.
Yes, yes i am.Are you really, seriously, asking me that?
historic data shows that if you increase trade friction your economy will sufferOk forecasts, no historic data. Weather forecast for today was great. Turned oit cloudy and a bit chilly actually.
Nostalgia probably plays a major role in that. In contrast however, the result for pre-decimal currency is very low.If you look at the graphic @Silva posted above, how else could you interpret a sizable chunk of leave voters wishing for changes such as return to empirial units?
I was just making a general point there.Second bolded part: Not sure anyone has argued that equivalence.
Think we're all about to find out quite shortly.Ok forecasts, no historic data. Weather forecast for today was great. Turned oit cloudy and a bit chilly actually.
OK. I do believe you are on a wind up, but I will answer, anyhow: I accept people do see things differently and opinions differ. This doesn't mean that I should consider all opinions equally valid. Some are less valid than others because, for example, they lack any logical or factual basis.Yes, yes i am.
Apologies for any misunderstanding, that wasn't addressed to you specifically. Rather I was making a general point about how often said correlations have been remarked upon in the wake of Brexit and the inference that I'd say many people feel is contained within it.I didn’t correlate education and higher earnings with wisdom. Higher education correlates with higher earnings. Lower earnings correlates with what you mentioned about people feeling left behind. The anger and mistrust towards the establishment.
As I said - I think the EU became a bit of a proxy in of all this. But in a country that has always had a strongly eurosceptic tradition it was a huge mistake for successive governments to allow certain conditions to fester and therefore particular feelings to manifest which would then prove decisive in such a referendum. In one sense then, the vote may not prove to be irrational at all, if it compels the political class to address these issues.However making that a protest a vote against the EU, which has little control over how we spread our wealth, is an irrational, emotional vote. Same as voting for nostalgic reasons is an emotional, irrational vote. And I was at pains to explain that nostalgia wasn’t the only emotional reason that some people leaned towards Brexit.
That may indeed be the case, but it simply doesn't matter at this point.But to get back at the nostalgia thing and that age group graph. You say broad statements can be made about only 3 age groups. But all age groups conform to a trend. Which is that the older you get the more likely you are to vote for Brexit. Every age group is more Brexit-leaning than the previous. That, along with the statements we see in all the interviews from people of older age groups, indicates a strong impact of nostalgia in their decision making process.
Exactly, and that's the cruel irony of the whole Brexit enterprise.The reason that immigration hasn't been reduced isn't because we haven't used that caveat to control EU immigration. There have been more non-EU migrants than EU migrants in every quarter this decade. It wasn't the EU that forced us to let those non-EU folks in, it was the UK government.
More than that, the number of non-EU immigrants increased significantly and continuously in 2018, almost perfectly balancing out the drop in numbers of EU immigrants over the same time period.
So in order for one to qualify as pro-EU, they must agree with every single concept, idea or preference of the EU?Oh, and Walrus: being in favour of the death penalty is very much incompatible with the EU.
You want historical data for something that hasn’t been done yet?Where is your historic data to prove this?
Indeed you did. Too many people my arse...I tried
the rate of childbirth is lower than ever and age at which people have kids is higher than everAlso, quick note regarding overpopulation. I think ultimately it is a subjective term as everyone has their own idea of how many people is “enough”. My opinion is that the UK has too many people right now (and this is absolutely not a comment on immigration or ‘foreigners’ - if anything I find most immigrants more polite and hardworking etc than most brits).
Too many people have too many kids, and have them too young, and as mentioned before, the trend of people living longer and longer has caused an aging population. I would be interested to see the stats of the proportion of the total population in full time employment compared with previous years/decades. I think the “aging population” issue goes very much hand in hand with overpopulation. When I have been abroad to countries like Spain or the US, it has always struck me simply how much open land there is compared with the UK. Even from a brief look on google maps, it is easy to see the level of industrialisation and urbanisation here compared with other countries. Personally I generally prefer cities to the countryside anyway, but to me it is an issue when we are irreversibly getting rid of our green spaces.
Thing is, none of this is particularly to do with the EU or Brexit.
Yeah but he saw a few teenage mums so your stats don't mean anythingthe rate of childbirth is lower than ever and age at which people have kids is higher than ever
Which is a sign of decline, anthropologically speaking.the rate of childbirth is lower than ever and age at which people have kids is higher than ever