3 Idiots already did that.
Kashmir
- Thread starter 2cents
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Really? Nothing even remotely close to that is going to happen.
Eh? So, India did the wrong thing earlier in J&K, doing the right (different) thing in Hyd. Now, India is doing in J&K what it did in Hyd. But this is still wrong? You seem confused, mate.
It says more about Pakistan than anyone else if the country sees this as a reason to declare a nuclear war. If anything, India has just created a system which will allow Kashmir to actually get investments and grow economically, creating employment etc.
If this is something that dismays Pakistan, well, then it should be clear where their priorities lie.
Of course it isn't, and in any conventional war India would easily defeat Pakistan, there's really no equality in their ability to project force
Plebiscite argument is disingenuous. There is no basis of the same in history. Almost all nation states were formed via conquer or consolidation of power by some ruler or another. There is also no end to the same given how partition took place in 1947. Kashmir ended up being an issue due to its geographical location, otherwise it would have been same as Hyderabad
I am not sure how I feel about this move. Even with article 370 in place, things were not good in Kashmir so it is not about if this will make things worse but if there is no comeback from this move. What I am definitely against is the kind of measures put in place in J&K right now.
I am not sure how I feel about this move. Even with article 370 in place, things were not good in Kashmir so it is not about if this will make things worse but if there is no comeback from this move. What I am definitely against is the kind of measures put in place in J&K right now.
Wonder if @VidaRed is celebrating this or not...
Very pertinent question
And Uttarakhand.
Im okay with scrapping art 370.
Bifurcating the state and making it a UT will do no good. Kashmir should have been made a normal state like any other. UT's are generally small territories and not a big land mass like J&K.
Is that why all the journalists have been kicked out? The political parties put under house arrest, all communication banned and using cluster bombs (in violation of geneva convention)? Not to mention the deployment of thousands of troops.Eh? I'm from there - and there's no such restriction. Anyone can come and go, set up shop etc.
I'm going to ignore the blatant Pakistani propaganda parts here and comment solely on the economic issues. The state can only grow with investment and investment has to come perforce from outside the state. That creates jobs and a sustainable economy. So yes, the abrogation of these articles will help in changing the demographics - most specifically the income demographic - of the state for the better.
What is the equivalent of the nizam in j&k today? Who is the unelected king suppressing his own population?
As long as the people that are dying are not related to you, it's okay to look at the economic issues. I like how racists and the right use terms like this to justify horrible acts. Protect our borders= separate kids from their parents and lock them up in inhumane conditions. Brutalize a whole population for 50 years and now crank up the troops and the killings to change the demographic= economic growth.This is from the notorious pakistani website, the financial times. I suppose its easier to sleep at night if everything can be attributed to Pakistani propaganda.
Serious question? 370 and 35A. While the rest of the country saw the benefits of investment and growth and employment-generation, J&K saw none of it, owing to their restrictions on "citizenship". The employment crisis there plays a major role in the discontent. Yet, while they want the Center to do more, what more can the Center do with 370 and 35A pretty much ensuring nothing can be done? The state got more subsidies, funds and grants than any other - but could do nothing with it. While HP, Sikkim and UK developed through tax sops that drove private investments, J&K can't offer any of that.
Now, the people there feel that influx of people from other states will "dilute" their culture. Local politicians like the Abdullahs and Muftis promote this feeling to protect what is their fiefdom. It's nothing more than that. By doing so, they've made their suppression of Kashmir's economy seem like it's being done with the best interests of Kashmiris in mind. But the facts indicate that 370 and 35A have only ensured that Kashmir has sunk further and further into the mire.
You can continue to back the illogical existence of these Articles of course. I'm just outlining the rationale that should be obvious to anyone that wishes to see the economic growth of the state and people.
I welcome this decision. Although there will some unrest for a month or two ( even some violence by some idiots) but on a long term I can see a stable Kashmir.
I also hope eventually this brings a peaceful relationship between India Pakistan. Petty politics need to be stopped. There are many things to worry for both the countries. Many innocent have already died. Continuing the blame game and all the fights will not solve anything. Work for the larger goal that is making your country a stable one.
I also hope eventually this brings a peaceful relationship between India Pakistan. Petty politics need to be stopped. There are many things to worry for both the countries. Many innocent have already died. Continuing the blame game and all the fights will not solve anything. Work for the larger goal that is making your country a stable one.
Impressed by PM Modi and his govt. Walks the talk.
Only residential/commercial in urban areas and that to has a limit. I wanted farm land had to take permission and go through the red tape, the process is still on! Money has been given and permission has still not arrived.
Restrictions on farm land are not because of status of the state alone. There are loads of states which have laws that allow agricultural land to be purchased only by farmers etc. Completely different issue. Anyone can set up business there. The processes are clearly defined. This is completely different from a state like J&K (formerly) where the process was clearly defined as, "It doesn't matter what you want - you can't have it anyway".
Not sure how this will affect the average Kashmiri but the way it has been implemented has left a bad taste. A blackout and arresting the leaders is bang out of order. A debate with the leaders and actually considering the input of Kashmiri citizens should have been the way foward, instead of surrounding the area with the army. Dont like the path down which India is going. The bloodlust of the sanghi crowd is very scary. Fascist government doing Fascist things.
Due to the makeup of the present nationalist inclined Government, my initial feelings are this is social engineering. Basically to change the demographics of the Muslim-majority state.
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
I agree 100% with this. It's an absolutely right decision but they've gone about it in a wrong way(IMO ofcourse). This required big balls so fair play to BJP.
This
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
just need to read the comments on that tweet to get an idea of the guy, his bias, and what his audience is liked.Can't you lot just hate the white man instead ?
This is a joke
This is a joke
Ballsy move by the government. I'm just surprised they did it so soon, it would've been more politically expedient to do it with the next round of elections closeby.
Bull shit, terrorism in 89 did that when terrorist forced the people of other religions to convert or flee or die.
Secular people dont bifurcate demographics.
Irrelevant. The debate over these has been on for decades. There are numerous PILs already in the Courts and the PDP and NC (the two regional parties from the Valley) made it clear they'd not even discuss removal. This hits their ability to control minds and population as well. For those who don't know, Article 35A literally (literally) allows the State of J&K to pass discriminatory laws without the ability of citizens to challenge said discrimination as being constitutionally wrong! The Article was never voted upon - but just implemented vide a Presidential decree - and no, it had nothing to do with the terms of accession. In such an environment, either one could have continued with meaningless debate for several more decades or one bites the bullet and does what is right.
As for house-arrest and the Army being deployed, again, these are preventive and proactive measures to prevent forces like the Hurriyat from fomenting trouble. Again, there seems to be little option - since peace and security are indeed paramount.
Demographic change is needed in Jammu and Kashmir - economically, most of all. Why do we not hail Brexit and Trump's proposed Muslim ban? Because free movement of people should be encouraged. Why the need to "protect" an artificial edifice? The religious make-up of the population should be irrelevant in the face of the economic make-up. We should all be hoping that the state and all its citizens can get employment and rise up the demographic strata. Why be afraid that lifting restrictions will encourage the migration of non-Muslims into Kashmir? How'd you feel if Hindu-majority states or Christian-majority states (like the NE) started insisting on similar restrictions and on making them permanent?
Yeah. KPs everywhere celebrating the decision. Am very close to the community obviously; they're unanimously delighted with this. The media narrative - specially the overseas media, but also the domestic one to a great extent - completely ignores the genocide of the KPs and the horrors they faced.
What would the "right way" have been though? It's easy to criticize this as "high-handed", but do you really think any Kashmiri party would ever have agreed to give up the outrageous power that these articles bestowed upon them? Here are some of the things they were able to do:
1. Get the highest (by far) share of grants and subsidies
2. Ensure they could actually control the voting population
3. Suspend delimitation to prevent changing demographics (higher population increase in Jammu) from affecting their ability to control power from the Valley
4. Systematically reduce specific demographic groups using the citizenship card and their undisputed right to define citizens of Kashmir
5. Ensured complete immunity and opacity for themselves by refusing even things like RTI
And this is just scratching the surface. There's so much they have continued to block for so long! Simple fact is - the politicians from the Valley got too much power from these articles. They'd never have voluntarily agreed to even suspend these partially. E.g. there was a proposal to allow partial usage of land for non-citizens - like taking land for industry as they do in the NE, UK or HP. Summarily dismissed by the State politicians - as it would change "Kashmiriyat". There really was no other way than brute force to get this through. And like you too accept, this is the right move.
It's interesting and insightful that nobody that is opposing the "means" used has come up with a viable alternative. It's sad - but that's the way it is.
Very good post. People saying it should have done in a right way. What is the other right way, asking omar Abdullah or mehmooba mufti the two goons who want to run Kashmir their way and live chaos. As if they would have agreed anything. A lot of innocent people would have further died and a mass riot would have happened. Now congress and other opposing parties are left toothless and have lost any power to cause any chaos. Good decision by Modi govt.
This thread makes me a bit sad. I am not sure whether 370 going would change stuff or not but no way should the ends justify the means. The government of India acted in a shambolic manner and just like with demonetisaton the idea shouldn't be used to overlook the fact that for absolutely no reason what so ever the government enforced a curfew in a whole state and took away phones & internet . There is also no logical explanation for J&K becoming a UT.
So you advocate what's happening in Hongkong in terms of social security situation should be allowed to happen in this case?
Why are the locals so sad about it then?
Disagree totally. There has been ample discussions on Kashmir which has never led anywhere. There's no way Kashmiri govt will agree to voluntarily give up their ridiculous powers. And though I'm not a fan of house arrests and such, considering the volatility of the region proactive measures do seem to be the right way to go. Violence is not only anticipated but guaranteed, so these proactive steps do make sense.
Rather infantile to critique without suggesting a better (and plausible as well as feasible) alternative. I've outlined (above) the rationale for why this was the only way it would ever get done. There was no other way it would ever go through. Let me ask you this. Do you think the BSP or SP or any of the parties like the JD(U), CPM etc. ever back a proposal to remove the benefits of caste-based reservations for the "rich" among those castes? It's been proposed - and summarily rejected. Now, it is a fool's errand to think it's logically sound to back their stand - and an even bigger folly if you think that even a century of "dialogue" and "engagement" will get them to back such proposals. By logical extension therefore, it is impossible to remove reservations except by executive fiat. Do you think those communities will take it lying down? Would you not accuse a government that were to make such a fiat of gross negligence if they failed to take precautionary measures? It's the same here.
As for the UT - there are scores of reasons to make it a UT for the interim period while the region is properly assimilated.
Classic case of selective assessment. How many KPs do you see opposing this? How many people in Jammu are wailing about the outrage? Or in Ladakh? The state of J&K isn't just the Kashmir Valley, you realize. Also, is every common citizen upset? Not really. You choose to see the political leadership of the Valley and extend it to say "locals". Sorry, but that doesn't hold. Again, this is something I've outlined above.
I am sorry but I am not aware enough to comment on what's happening in Hong Kong . All I can see is that in 2019 the Indian government should not behave in the way that it has done. It is just my view which obviously is a minority view in India right now as shown by the last elections .
You've answered my question with the quality of your response.
Go on! I'd like to know what alternative you had in mind - which as I said had a plausible and feasible chance of achieving the same ends.