[Swiss_Red89]

What about before and after that period ?

Didn't control things either... He only came alive after he moved to the number 10 position, which i think is his best position for us at the moment.

I was also talking in general, when things gets though and we need a calming influence in midfield he often is the one to contribute needless ball losses. I hope he gets better with age with it. (if he still plays for us otherwise i won't care)

 

[Jeppers7]

[QUOTE="finneh, post: 24652699, member: 52832"]In three seasons Pogba has less than half of Eriksen's goals and assists (especially if you exclude penalties) whilst also providing far less defensive work rate.

Maybe a better way of putting is he prioritises style over substance. This benefits Paul Pogba and his brand (see previous post salivating at how magical he is), but is often to the detriment of the team (losing the ball far too frequently and trying flicks where a simple and effective option is available).

I said previously it's like watching an exceptionally talented 17 year old who's been destroying the U18's for a couple of years. The problem is it's a decade later so making poor decisions relentlessly isn't excusable anymore.[/QUOTE]

All of this is a lie

 

[In Rainbows]

In three seasons Pogba has less than half of Eriksen's goals and assists (especially if you exclude penalties) whilst also providing far less defensive work rate.

Maybe a better way of putting is he prioritises style over substance. This benefits Paul Pogba and his brand (see previous post salivating at how magical he is), but is often to the detriment of the team (losing the ball far too frequently and trying flicks where a simple and effective option is available).

I said previously it's like watching an exceptionally talented 17 year old who's been destroying the U18's for a couple of years. The problem is it's a decade later so making poor decisions relentlessly isn't excusable anymore.

Excuse the long post

Eriksen had 29 more goals+assists in the past 3 seasons than Pogba. 12146 minutes to Pogba's 11241 minutes. Almost 1000 more minutes which still goes in Eriksen's favor in terms of production so it's not really much of an excuse in Pogba's favor. Then you realize that Eriksen takes more freekicks and corners than Pogba. He's had 14 assists from a set piece, while Pogba has none because he largely doesn't attempt them with United. So I take away Pogba's 9 pens as Eriksen doesn't take pens and it comes out to Eriksen having 24 more goals and assists in the past 3 seasons in 1000 more minutes than Pogba. That's about 11 matches more than Pogba so it's still in Eriksen's favor in terms of production, but by like 18-20 as opposed to 24.

The reason why this comparison doesn't work is because Eriksen has played a lot more matches as an AM than Pogba has. It's only very recently that Eriksen has taken more of a Pogba role for Spurs.

According to whoscored:
Pogba - 8 apps at AM, 72 at CM, 33 at DM, 1 at LCM/RCM, 0 as Winger
Eriksen - 37 apps at AM, 39 at CM, 3 at DM, 1 at LCM/RCM, 46 as Winger

From just the key passes statistic, Eriksen has a huge lead from crosses. Meaning that because he plays in more advanced areas, he gets many more opportunities to provide a key pass through crossing which is usually one of the biggest contributors to key passes across all positions. For example, Ashley Young is our 3rd best key passer along with Martial because Young takes a lot of set pieces and also has about 55% of his key passes coming from crosses.

In regards to set pieces, Eriksen has 29 key passes from either corners or freekicks last season. Pogba has 0 because he really doesn't take them for United. Key passes is a counting stat as are goals and assists. Meaning that the more opportunities you have, the better off it represents your statistics.

It's very easy to explain why Eriksen has more goals and assists. He plays in more advanced positions, takes many of his team's set pieces, and gets in way more crosses than Pogba, all while playing 1000 more minutes the past 3 seasons.

 

[kouroux]

Excuse the long post

Eriksen had 29 more goals+assists in the past 3 seasons than Pogba. 12146 minutes to Pogba's 11241 minutes. Almost 1000 more minutes which still goes in Eriksen's favor in terms of production so it's not really much of an excuse in Pogba's favor. Then you realize that Eriksen takes more freekicks and corners than Pogba. He's had 14 assists from a set piece, while Pogba has none because he largely doesn't attempt them with United. So I take away Pogba's 9 pens as Eriksen doesn't take pens and it comes out to Eriksen having 24 more goals and assists in the past 3 seasons in 1000 more minutes than Pogba. That's about 11 matches more than Pogba so it's still in Eriksen's favor in terms of production, but by like 18-20 as opposed to 24.

The reason why this comparison doesn't work is because Eriksen has played a lot more matches as an AM than Pogba has. It's only very recently that Eriksen has taken more of a Pogba role for Spurs.

According to whoscored:
Pogba - 8 apps at AM, 72 at CM, 33 at DM, 1 at LCM/RCM, 0 as Winger
Eriksen - 37 apps at AM, 39 at CM, 3 at DM, 1 at LCM/RCM, 46 as Winger

From just the key passes statistic, Eriksen has a huge lead from crosses. Meaning that because he plays in more advanced areas, he gets many more opportunities to provide a key pass through crossing which is usually one of the biggest contributors to key passes across all positions. For example, Ashley Young is our 3rd best key passer along with Martial because Young takes a lot of set pieces and also has about 55% of his key passes coming from crosses.

In regards to set pieces, Eriksen has 29 key passes from either corners or freekicks last season. Pogba has 0 because he really doesn't take them for United.

It's very easy to explain why Eriksen has more goals and assists. He plays in more advanced positions, takes many of his team's set pieces, and gets in way more crosses than Pogba, all while playing 1000 more minutes the past 3 seasons.

I think we need to seriously reintroduce the concept of "context" on the caf. What you gave is a good example of it. People just run away with stats without looking at them in detail.

 

[In Rainbows]

It's not even a dig at Eriksen. Eriksen is a really good player and along with Pogba one of the best #8s in the PL. He pretty much matches up with Pogba in chance creation regardless of those caveats I used.

But that's the thing isn't it? The fact that we're bringing up Eriksen in order to bring down Pogba just absolutely demolishes any ill will towards Pogba. People just can't admit that Pogba does his job really well, but obviously has his flaws. All this says is that Pogba does need help in midfield and there is no harm in giving him that help. United will only be better off for it. Replacing Pogba with another great player will make the midfield another flavor, but it won't make our midfield one of the best in the world or best in the PL. You need more quality, point blank. Well that, or having a manager that can create a monster system like Klopp or Pep.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I don't even know what you're trying to say anymore. Guendouzi is better than Pogba now? That Pogba needs a partner next to him to not lose the ball? Seriously, you're not acting rational. You're stuck in this "unlock Pogba" narrative and you can't escape it. You clearly don't understand the idea that players compliment other players, and that it has nothing to do with whether or not Pogba will lose the ball or not. He's not as disciplined as other midfielders. Get over it. His quality is still above the likes of Guendouzi and other work horses who sprinkle in a bit of quality every now and then.

My point is that, for 90 minutes against a decent Spurs team, Guendouzi put in a proper, box to box, well rounded central midfield performance. Retaining possession, passing the ball accurately, winning it back whenever his team lost possession but also capable of unlocking the opposition defence with a creative pass when that option is available. Basically making the difference at both end of the pitch. Which is exactly what we've been waiting and waiting and waiting for Pogba to produce since we signed him. His acolytes have been desperately moving the goalposts with regards to what we can and can't expect from him, with the latest lowering of the bar being that he can now only perform a number 10, completely devoid of any sort of the more general responsibilities you'd expect from a proper central midfielder.

Well here's how Pogba himself described what to expect when we signed him, in an interview with Thierry Henry:

TH: What would you say is your best attribute?

PP: I think it's... this is a very hard question, because I don't know. I think I would say defend, get the ball and just go, because I have long legs so I can run with the ball. Make an assist or shoot, to be like all of midfielders, strikers, defenders... I wanted to do all, but what I do best, I think it's like box-to-box. Defend to attack. I wouldn't say one attribute, one point, I don't even know.

Something else that bothers me is the revisionism about his time at Juventus. I only very occasionally watched him in that league but all the stats I can find show him producing almost exactly the same sort of impact there as he has done at United. So even if we can clone peak Pirlo and Vidal (which a lot of ye seem to think is the only way to get the best out of him) it's still not going to make a massive difference to what he brings to to the team. He averaged 0.23 assists per game at Juventus. At United his average is 0.21. His goals/game has actually increased from 0.19 to 0.21 (presumably because he's been allowed to take penalties - badly) To put these in perspective, Eriksen has averaged 0.3 assists and 0.24 goals (without penalties) per game at Spurs. Or how about we compare him with Ozil at Arsenal, if the we're willing to tolerate feck all defensive work in order to focus on creating? Arsenal seem to have more or less given up on him and he's still managed 0.32 assists per game (0.19 goals, no penalties)

What people keep ignoring is the fact that we paid a fecking enormous fee to sign a 23 year old who everybody - including Paul Pogba himself - thought could develop into an undisputed world class, box to box, central midfielder. Several years later, his game hasn't evolved at all. He's entering his prime as a footballer and he doesn't seem to have learned or developed in the slightest from the 23 year old we paid 100 million quid for.

It kind of blows my mind the way so many people on here are determined to ignore this and constantly look for external factors to justify his stagnation. To watch such a gifted, athletic young footballer either unable or unwilling to work on his game is one of the most crushing disappointments I can remember as a United fan.

 

[Marcelinho87]

https://theathletic.com/1160326/2019/08/26/paul-pogba/

Imagine, for a moment, a player who over the course of a campaign could make more tackles than Virgil Van Dijk, complete more dribbles than Sadio Mane, win possession more times than Fernandinho, head more balls than Harry Kane, create more chances than Leroy Sane and succeed in more duels than N’Golo Kante.

 

[Marcus]

He played badly. I am sure he will improve the next game. Unfortunately, given the lack of options, he has to play and play much better.

 

[1988]

I’ve watched McTomminay through pre season, he looked a different player. I was excited to see him this season.

So far he’s been mediocre at best. Extremely ordinary.

I can only assume his performances are acceptable to you because he’s far less talented ?

That’s a bizarre way to judge performances.

How's it bizarre to take things into consideration? So you judge all by same standards regardless of club status, expectations, age and value etc?

 

[In Rainbows]

My point is that, for 90 minutes against a decent Spurs team, Guendouzi put in a proper, box to box, well rounded central midfield performance. Retaining possession, passing the ball accurately, winning it back whenever his team lost possession but also capable of unlocking the opposition defence with a creative pass when that option is available. Basically making the difference at both end of the pitch. Which is exactly what we've been waiting and waiting and waiting for Pogba to produce since we signed him. His acolytes have been desperately moving the goalposts with regards to what we can and can't expect from him, with the latest lowering of the bar being that he can now only perform a number 10, completely devoid of any sort of the more general responsibilities you'd expect from a proper central midfielder.

Well here's how Pogba himself described what to expect when we signed him, in an interview with Thierry Henry:



Something else that bothers me is the revisionism about his time at Juventus. I only very occasionally watched him in that league but all the stats I can find show him producing almost exactly the same sort of impact there as he has done at United. So even if we can clone peak Pirlo and Vidal (which a lot of ye seem to think is the only way to get the best out of him) it's still not going to make a massive difference to what he brings to to the team. He averaged 0.23 assists per game at Juventus. At United his average is 0.21. His goals/game has actually increased from 0.19 to 0.21 (presumably because he's been allowed to take penalties - badly) To put these in perspective, Eriksen has averaged 0.3 assists and 0.24 goals (without penalties) per game at Spurs. Or how about we compare him with Ozil at Arsenal, if the we're willing to tolerate feck all defensive work in order to focus on creating? Arsenal seem to have more or less given up on him and he's still managed 0.32 assists per game (0.19 goals, no penalties)

What people keep ignoring is the fact that we paid a fecking enormous fee to sign a 23 year old who everybody - including Paul Pogba himself - thought could develop into an undisputed world class, box to box, central midfielder. Several years later, his game hasn't evolved at all. He's entering his prime as a footballer and he doesn't seem to have learned or developed in the slightest from the 23 year old we paid 100 million quid for.

It kind of blows my mind the way so many people on here are determined to ignore this and constantly look for external factors to justify his stagnation. To watch such a gifted, athletic young footballer either unable or unwilling to work on his game is one of the most crushing disappointments I can remember as a United fan.

No, it is not that he can only perform as a 10, he has the attributes to perform deeper, but his flaws stick out more deeper. There is no moving the goal posts. It is a fact that Pogba can pass the ball really well to distribute from deep. He can pass between the lines, and he can put in a shift in defense. He's not going to be consistent in that though, because he isn't disciplined enough. Pogba has the ability to be many things in midfield, but at this point it's very obvious that he tends to favor certain parts of the game and loses interest in other areas. This will show itself over the course of a season.

The fact that you listed one performance from Guendouzi is a poor argument. The scale we're speaking on is a season's worth of performances. So sure it's possible for Guendouzi to outperform Pogba in a weekend, but I doubt it happens over the course of the season. The fact that you've been waiting and waiting and waiting for Pogba to put up a similar performance is bs. He has put in performances Guendouzi can't perform. Don't extrapolate one performance to an entire season and then measure Pogba up to this hypothetical player.


Once again, you bring up this "get the best out of him" topic. I already answered this played out narrative. Enough with this narrative. We don't need Pirlo or Vidal to somehow unlock Pogba. We need quality for our entire midfield to start bossing other midfields at a level the very best midfields can consistently do over a season. Accept Pogba for what he is, which, while still a flawed player is still our best midfielder and still a top #8 midfielder. I brought up Vidal and Pirlo just to show you that the idea that Pogba is a liability is nonsense. It isn't possible to have a top 2 midfield if one of your midfielders is a liability. And it's not like only Pogba was complimented and nobody else was. The key is that you need to stop looking at defending as the one constant holy grail trait in a midfielder. All parts are important and if the sum of its parts helps the entire 11, then it doesn't matter how you accomplish this.

I know what he was at Juventus btw. I watched many games of his and he was like what he is right here with United.

He has many attributes, and I still value a midfielder like Modric, Xavi, or Scholes as the best midfielder in the world. The ones that run the show tend to be the very best when at the peak of their powers. Some would argue Zidane or Iniesta, but I guess that comes down to preference. Because Pogba has passing ability like Scholes, it was possible for him to turn into that type of player as he was so young. He didn't become that player, which was never a given trajectory, only a wish. That doesn't mean he isn't very good and needs to be shifted out. All this means is that we're still on the lookout for that midfielder. It's not like you can't be top class if you're not that specific midfielder. And it's not like we can't pair that midfielder up with Pogba. Pogba doesn't negate that midfielder somehow. They can coexist and that's not a crazy idea.

And the difference between Ozil and Pogba is that Pogba will be a little more deeper than Ozil, chipping in more when it comes to a midfield's job. It is a small difference, but there is a difference. A #10 is more of an attacker, and will likely not chip in more in defense than someone like Pogba, despite Pogba being reluctant to do that job. Januzaj is a perfect example. Clearly Pogba put in more of a defensive shift or at the very least will be in positions that block the opposition from getting entirely what they want.

 

[finneh]

Excuse the long post

Eriksen had 29 more goals+assists in the past 3 seasons than Pogba. 12146 minutes to Pogba's 11241 minutes. Almost 1000 more minutes which still goes in Eriksen's favor in terms of production so it's not really much of an excuse in Pogba's favor. Then you realize that Eriksen takes more freekicks and corners than Pogba. He's had 14 assists from a set piece, while Pogba has none because he largely doesn't attempt them with United. So I take away Pogba's 9 pens as Eriksen doesn't take pens and it comes out to Eriksen having 24 more goals and assists in the past 3 seasons in 1000 more minutes than Pogba. That's about 11 matches more than Pogba so it's still in Eriksen's favor in terms of production, but by like 18-20 as opposed to 24.

The reason why this comparison doesn't work is because Eriksen has played a lot more matches as an AM than Pogba has. It's only very recently that Eriksen has taken more of a Pogba role for Spurs.

According to whoscored:
Pogba - 8 apps at AM, 72 at CM, 33 at DM, 1 at LCM/RCM, 0 as Winger
Eriksen - 37 apps at AM, 39 at CM, 3 at DM, 1 at LCM/RCM, 46 as Winger

From just the key passes statistic, Eriksen has a huge lead from crosses. Meaning that because he plays in more advanced areas, he gets many more opportunities to provide a key pass through crossing which is usually one of the biggest contributors to key passes across all positions. For example, Ashley Young is our 3rd best key passer along with Martial because Young takes a lot of set pieces and also has about 55% of his key passes coming from crosses.

In regards to set pieces, Eriksen has 29 key passes from either corners or freekicks last season. Pogba has 0 because he really doesn't take them for United. Key passes is a counting stat as are goals and assists. Meaning that the more opportunities you have, the better off it represents your statistics.

It's very easy to explain why Eriksen has more goals and assists. He plays in more advanced positions, takes many of his team's set pieces, and gets in way more crosses than Pogba, all while playing 1000 more minutes the past 3 seasons.

I will correct myself in that it isn't less than half as I don't want to appear disingenuous. I'll address the rest of your post point by point:

Eriksen had 29 more goals+assists in the past 3 seasons than Pogba. 12146 minutes to Pogba's 11241 minutes. Almost 1000 more minutes which still goes in Eriksen's favor in terms of production

According to Transfermarkt if you exclude penalties:

16/17 - Eriksen 35 vs Pogba 14
17/18 - Eriksen 27 vs Pogba 18
18/19 - Eriksen 27 vs Pogba 19
Eriksen 89 (146 games) vs Pogba 51 (135 games)

Excluding penalties it's actually 38 more G+A or he's 75% more productive. If Pogba and Eriksen were starting a game tomorrow the former would have a 38% chance to contribute in this way compared with the latter 61%. Regarding the minutes played a lot of the difference is down to Pogba for several matches due to poor form, hardly a mitigating factor.

He's had 14 assists from a set piece, while Pogba has none because he largely doesn't attempt them with United. Then you realize that Eriksen takes more freekicks and corners than Pogba. He's had 14 assists from a set piece, while Pogba has none because he largely doesn't attempt them with United.

Pogba doesn't attempt set pieces because there's better set piece takers in the team. If we had a player with Eriksen's ability we'd absolutely benefit from his assists as he'd be by far our best set piece taker. The difference with penalties is that another player would comfortably match Pogba's conversion rate (66% last year).

The reason why this comparison doesn't work is because Eriksen has played a lot more matches as an AM than Pogba has. It's only very recently that Eriksen has taken more of a Pogba role for Spurs.

This would be a really important factor if Pogba were contributing to the team in a defensive sense to a far greater degree than Eriksen. However this is not the case. In fact I'd argue that if Eriksen were allowed to vacate almost all defensive responsibilities ala Pogba, he would be far more effective in an attacking sense. Eriksen plays further forward but is also required to do more defensive work in terms of pressing and tracking back. The most important task given to both players in their roles is to create and score goals.

The reason we have to play Lingard and McTominay around Pogba (both of which are inefficient in an attacking sense) is to cover for his defensive frailties and the reason Pogba can't be trusted further forward is because he won't press as is required by the attacker players in our system.

It's very easy to explain why Eriksen has more goals and assists.

The biggest explanation in my view is because he's a much better player. He contributes more in an attacking sense as illustrated in this post. He contributes more in a defensive sense which is shown by his pressing and distance covered stats (as well as not giving the ball away as much). Likewise he is more versatile as acknowledged by your post.

Even if you disregard the stats I think you'd struggle to find non-United fans that would put Pogba in the same league as Eriksen. I can't think of a single way in which Pogba contributes to the team to a greater extent, apart from his counter-productive showboating ability.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

No, it is not that he can only perform as a 10, he has the attributes to perform deeper, but his flaws stick out more deeper. There is no moving the goal posts. It is a fact that Pogba can pass the ball really well to distribute from deep. He can pass between the lines, and he can put in a shift in defense. He's not going to be consistent in that though, because he isn't disciplined enough. Pogba has the ability to be many things in midfield, but at this point it's very obvious that he tends to favor certain parts of the game and loses interest in other areas. This will show itself over the course of a season.

The fact that you listed one performance from Guendouzi is a poor argument. The scale we're speaking on is a season's worth of performances. So sure it's possible for Guendouzi to outperform Pogba in a weekend, but I doubt it happens over the course of the season. The fact that you've been waiting and waiting and waiting for Pogba to put up a similar performance is bs. He has put in performances Guendouzi can't perform. Don't extrapolate one performance to an entire season and then measure Pogba up to this hypothetical player.


Once again, you bring up this "get the best out of him" topic. I already answered this played out narrative. Enough with this narrative. We don't need Pirlo or Vidal to somehow unlock Pogba. We need quality for our entire midfield to start bossing other midfields at a level the very best midfields can consistently do over a season. Accept Pogba for what he is, which, while still a flawed player is still our best midfielder and still a top #8 midfielder. I brought up Vidal and Pirlo just to show you that the idea that Pogba is a liability is nonsense. It isn't possible to have a top 2 midfield if one of your midfielders is a liability. And it's not like only Pogba was complimented and nobody else was. The key is that you need to stop looking at defending as the one constant holy grail trait in a midfielder. All parts are important and if the sum of its parts helps the entire 11, then it doesn't matter how you accomplish this.

I know what he was at Juventus btw. I watched many games of his and he was like what he is right here with United.

He has many attributes, and I still value a midfielder like Modric, Xavi, or Scholes as the best midfielder in the world. The ones that run the show tend to be the very best when at the peak of their powers. Some would argue Zidane or Iniesta, but I guess that comes down to preference. Because Pogba has passing ability like Scholes, it was possible for him to turn into that type of player as he was so young. He didn't become that player, which was never a given trajectory, only a wish. That doesn't mean he isn't very good and needs to be shifted out. All this means is that we're still on the lookout for that midfielder. It's not like you can't be top class if you're not that specific midfielder. And it's not like we can't pair that midfielder up with Pogba. Pogba doesn't negate that midfielder somehow. They can coexist and that's not a crazy idea.

And the difference between Ozil and Pogba is that Pogba will be a little more deeper than Ozil, chipping in more when it comes to a midfield's job. It is a small difference, but there is a difference. A #10 is more of an attacker, and will likely not chip in more in defense than someone like Pogba, despite Pogba being reluctant to do that job. Januzaj is a perfect example. Clearly Pogba put in more of a defensive shift or at the very least will be in positions that block the opposition from getting entirely what they want.

So Pogba is flawed, lacking in discipline, will never be able run the show in midfield, loses interest in some areas of the game and reluctant to chip in with the defensive work. Maybe our opinion on him is closer to mine than I thought!

I have a question for you. Pogba is 26 years old now. He was 23 when we signed him. You'd expect a lot of improvement in any footballer between the age of 23 and 26. What elements of Pogba's game have you seen improve over the last 3 years?

 

[Annihilate Now!]

So Pogba is flawed, lacking in discipline, will never be able run the show in midfield, loses interest in some areas of the game and reluctant to chip in with the defensive work. Maybe our opinion on him is closer than I thought!

I have a question for you. Pogba is 26 years old now. He was 23 when we signed him. You'd expect a lot of improvement in any footballer between the age of 23 and 26. What elements of Pogba's game have you seen improve over the last 3 years?

His hair has got better.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

His hair has got better.

True.

Looks like putting the hours in can pay off after all.

 

[In Rainbows]

I will correct myself in that it isn't less than half as I don't want to appear disingenuous. I'll address the rest of your post point by point:


According to Transfermarkt if you exclude penalties:

16/17 - Eriksen 35 vs Pogba 14
17/18 - Eriksen 27 vs Pogba 18
18/19 - Eriksen 27 vs Pogba 19
Eriksen 89 (146 games) vs Pogba 51 (135 games)

Excluding penalties it's actually 38 more G+A or he's 75% more productive. If Pogba and Eriksen were starting a game tomorrow the former would have a 38% chance to contribute in this way compared with the latter 61%. Regarding the minutes played a lot of the difference is down to Pogba for several matches due to poor form, hardly a mitigating factor.


Pogba doesn't attempt set pieces because there's better set piece takers in the team. If we had a player with Eriksen's ability we'd absolutely benefit from his assists as he'd be by far our best set piece taker. The difference with penalties is that another player would comfortably match Pogba's conversion rate (66% last year).

I listed 29 because I did count penalties at first, which I later removed them for fairness. And it is a factor whether you like it or not. Minutes only benefit your stats. With more minutes, even with a worse rate of production, you improve your overall numbers because it's a counting stat. The same is true for penalties, and set pieces. Those are all counting stats that only add to your total. For example, just look at that period under Ole's first month. How many minutes were that and how many goals+assists did he get? Minutes are a chance for you to improve your stats and the more you have the easier it is to improve your stats. Such is the case with counting stats.

If Eriksen all of a sudden stopped taking corners and free kicks, his chance creation and assists and goal numbers go down. Because those things only benefit a player in regards to counting statistics.

You can't guarantee Eriksen would take those set pieces though can you? We've had freaking Jones take corners for us and same with Shaw. We've had Rashford take our freekicks despite him constantly being awful. There is no guarantee. And now that I think about it some more, Pogba probably doesn't get to take freekicks because it's better for him to try and get on the end of a pass to score. That's a goal scoring chance that Eriksen does not get, but as we know, it's easier to get an assist from freekicks than it is to head in a goal from a freekick for obvious reasons.

And even if he was better than Pogba at set pieces, if Pogba were to all of a sudden take them, you would be insane to argue that they wouldn't benefit his stats. They absolutely would because goals+assists are a counting stat. On the other hand, penalties are the one counting stat that can be easily brought up so that is why you have more people disregarding them. You don't see the same with freekicks.

This would be a really important factor if Pogba were contributing to the team in a defensive sense to a far greater degree than Eriksen. However this is not the case. In fact I'd argue that if Eriksen were allowed to vacate almost all defensive responsibilities ala Pogba, he would be far more effective in an attacking sense. Eriksen plays further forward but is also required to do more defensive work in terms of pressing and tracking back. The most important task given to both players in their roles is to create and score goals.

The reason we have to play Lingard and McTominay around Pogba (both of which are inefficient in an attacking sense) is to cover for his defensive frailties and the reason Pogba can't be trusted further forward is because he won't press as is required by the attacker players in our system.

Be serious here. This is ridiculous. Him offering up more defensively or not has no bearing on whether or not it's easier for him to create chances except that it might or might not tire him more. Position matters because you have less defenders in front of you and you get more opportunities to create something dangerous. That's a basic fact and you know it. A deeper midfielder has more responsibility to bring the ball out from the back, to take up deeper positions in order to keep some form of defensive shape, and more responsibility to supply attacking midfielders, wingers, strikers, and attacking fullbacks with passes. This is part of the reason why Chong has better goal+assist numbers than Gomes despite the fact that Gomes is more creative as a player.

Sure, you are correct about Lingard and McTominay, but Pogba is also needed to play next to McTominay because McTominay isn't good at bringing the ball out from the back. You can't just look at defense and then ignore other parts of the game. Pogba is our best distributor which is likely why Ole finds a need to play him deeper. If you play Pogba further forward, who do we have to give the ball to Pogba in more dangerous positions and to control the game through passing? Our midfielders are limited.

In fact, I actually took it easy on Eriksen by only looking at that context. I could just as easily have presented the fact that Pogba has played under more defensive managers than Eriksen has, and that Eriksen had better forwards in front of him, or that Eriksen had better ball playing centerbacks, or the fact that Eriksen had better midfield partners to control the game.

The biggest explanation in my view is because he's a much better player. He contributes more in an attacking sense as illustrated in this post. He contributes more in a defensive sense which is shown by his pressing and distance covered stats (as well as not giving the ball away as much). Likewise he is more versatile as acknowledged by your post.

Even if you disregard the stats I think you'd struggle to find non-United fans that would put Pogba in the same league as Eriksen. I can't think of a single way in which Pogba contributes to the team to a greater extent, apart from his counter-productive showboating ability.

No you did not illustrate that in your post or rather you did not prove that in your post. I illustrated that Eriksen is pretty much a Pogba level chance creator and benefits from playing in more advanced positions, having more minutes under his belt, and having opportunities that Pogba does not get regardless of whether or not he's better at them.

That is not arguable. It's a fact that Pogba plays deeper. It's a fact that Eriksen gets the chance to stack up his assist numbers through freekicks and corners, while Pogba doesn't just like Eriksen doesn't get to stack up his goal numbers through pens. It's a fact that Eriksen has played under a better performing manager with better teammates.

 

[In Rainbows]

So Pogba is flawed, lacking in discipline, will never be able run the show in midfield, loses interest in some areas of the game and reluctant to chip in with the defensive work. Maybe our opinion on him is closer to mine than I thought!

I have a question for you. Pogba is 26 years old now. He was 23 when we signed him. You'd expect a lot of improvement in any footballer between the age of 23 and 26. What elements of Pogba's game have you seen improve over the last 3 years?

I actually think Pogba has gotten better at creating from deep as his success rate with the lobbed ball over the top has improved. I do think he has regressed in regards to scoring from outside the box. And this one I'm less sure of, but I do feel that he's gotten a little more physically dominating.

 

[Jeppers7]

How's it bizarre to take things into consideration? So you judge all by same standards regardless of club status, expectations, age and value etc?

I want the best players to make us a great team. I'm more likely to look at players with the least talent who have the least affect and are most likely to keep us mediocre, than start with the most talented who generally generate the most goals/assists.

What are you taking into consideration? Your not very good....so it's alright ??

People don't even realise their issue with Pogba is mainly personal.

 

[Jeppers7]

I listed 29 because I did count penalties at first, which I later removed them for fairness. And it is a factor whether you like it or not. Minutes only benefit your stats. With more minutes, even with a worse rate of production, you improve your overall numbers because it's a counting stat. The same is true for penalties, and set pieces. Those are all counting stats that only add to your total. For example, just look at that period under Ole's first month. How many minutes were that and how many goals+assists did he get? Minutes are a chance for you to improve your stats and the more you have the easier it is to improve your stats. Such is the case with counting stats.

If Eriksen all of a sudden stopped taking corners and free kicks, his chance creation and assists and goal numbers go down. Because those things only benefit a player in regards to counting statistics.

You can't guarantee Eriksen would take those set pieces though can you? We've had freaking Jones take corners for us and same with Shaw. We've had Rashford take our freekicks despite him constantly being awful. There is no guarantee. And now that I think about it some more, Pogba probably doesn't get to take freekicks because it's better for him to try and get on the end of a pass to score. That's a goal scoring chance that Eriksen does not get, but as we know, it's easier to get an assist from freekicks than it is to head in a goal from a freekick for obvious reasons.

And even if he was better than Pogba at set pieces, if Pogba were to all of a sudden take them, you would be insane to argue that they wouldn't benefit his stats. They absolutely would because goals+assists are a counting stat. On the other hand, penalties are the one counting stat that can be easily brought up so that is why you have more people disregarding them. You don't see the same with freekicks.


Be serious here. This is ridiculous. Him offering up more defensively or not has no bearing on whether or not it's easier for him to create chances except that it might or might not tire him more. Position matters because you have less defenders in front of you and you get more opportunities to create something dangerous. That's a basic fact and you know it. A deeper midfielder has more responsibility to bring the ball out from the back, to take up deeper positions in order to keep some form of defensive shape, and more responsibility to supply attacking midfielders, wingers, strikers, and attacking fullbacks with passes. This is part of the reason why Chong has better goal+assist numbers than Gomes despite the fact that Gomes is more creative as a player.

Sure, you are correct about Lingard and McTominay, but Pogba is also needed to play next to McTominay because McTominay isn't good at bringing the ball out from the back. You can't just look at defense and then ignore other parts of the game. Pogba is our best distributor which is likely why Ole finds a need to play him deeper. If you play Pogba further forward, who do we have to give the ball to Pogba in more dangerous positions and to control the game through passing? Our midfielders are limited.

In fact, I actually took it easy on Eriksen by only looking at that context. I could just as easily have presented the fact that Pogba has played under more defensive managers than Eriksen has, and that Eriksen had better forwards in front of him, or that Eriksen had better ball playing centerbacks, or the fact that Eriksen had better midfield partners to control the game.


No you did not illustrate that in your post or rather you did not prove that in your post. I illustrated that Eriksen is pretty much a Pogba level chance creator and benefits from playing in more advanced positions, having more minutes under his belt, and having opportunities that Pogba does not get regardless of whether or not he's better at them.

That is not arguable. It's a fact that Pogba plays deeper. It's a fact that Eriksen gets the chance to stack up his assist numbers through freekicks and corners, while Pogba doesn't just like Eriksen doesn't get to stack up his goal numbers through pens. It's a fact that Eriksen has played under a better performing manager with better teammates.

Has anyone looked at defensive stats for the two ?

Also why are we disregarding penalties but not goals and assists from free kicks corners ? How is that a fair method.

 

[1988]

I want the best players to make us a great team. I'm more likely to look at players with the least talent who have the least affect and are most likely to keep us mediocre, than start with the most talented who generally generate the most goals/assists.

What are you taking into consideration? Your not very good....so it's alright ??

People don't even realise their issue with Pogba is mainly personal.

Are we looking at the last four games (I am atleast) or are we talking overall?

I have several times now said that my only issue with Pogba is his sloppiness and lack of focus. Don't turn my words into some bullshit witch-hunt cus that's not my point.

 

[dwd]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[Matt6677]

Heard Pogba has refused to sign a new contract which means that Madrid can sign him for the cheap next summer

We are doomed

 

[el3mel]

Heard Pogba has refused to sign a new contract which means that Madrid can sign him for the cheap next summer

We are doomed

His contract isn't ending next summer. De Gea's is.

 

[Giggsyking]

Heard Pogba has refused to sign a new contract which means that Madrid can sign him for the cheap next summer

We are doomed

he can wait three years.

 

[RedDevilRoshi]

Heard Pogba has refused to sign a new contract which means that Madrid can sign him for the cheap next summer

We are doomed

No they can’t as he still has a few years left.

 

[Chaky_Best]

We will all cry when our midfield next season will be Mc Tominay, Pereira and Longstaff

This guy can be exceptional, he just doesnt wants to play for us anymore.

We are almost as guilty as him in this situation.

He will play in Madrid next season (or in Jan) and we will probably turn on DDG

 

[Jeppers7]

https://www.skysports.com/football/...-by-arsenals-matteo-guendouzi-in-france-squad

He must be better than Pogba....he's replaced him in the France squad now

 

[The midfield general]

The sooner he goes the better,strolls about does not give a feck for, and yes I do believe he is poison,he is not the saviour he is the problem,shut the door on the way out and do not look back,fecking sick to death of him now.

 

[Full bodied red]

I never liked Pogba ; never wanted him at OT ; never believed he wanted to come to OT ; nowhere near as good as his reputation ; and never, ever, thought he was anything more than an overrated marketing tool and money making machine for some pretty dislikeable people and companies.

After last season and the start to this season, I feel quite good to know I was right all along.

 

[He'sRaldo]

I never liked Pogba ; never wanted him at OT ; never believed he wanted to come to OT ; nowhere near as good as his reputation ; and never, ever, thought he was anything more than an overrated marketing tool and money making machine for some pretty dislikeable people and companies.

After last season and the start to this season, I feel quite good to know I was right all along.

1) That simply means you were always biased.

2) You probably shouldn't feel good that our player isn't doing as well as he could, even if it makes you 'right'... or at least you shouldn't say it out loud

 

[cyberman]

We will all cry when our midfield next season will be Mc Tominay, Pereira and Longstaff

This guy can be exceptional, he just doesnt wants to play for us anymore.

We are almost as guilty as him in this situation.

He will play in Madrid next season (or in Jan) and we will probably turn on DDG

He's been consistently playing like this since day one.
No doubt he'll stat pad over two months and we'll pretend he's a genius in overview terms because he has more assists than Lingard and Scott but his performances have not stacked up for us since day one if viewed in isolation..
There's no getting around that.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

Lots of rubbish in this thread... fact is he is here for the season unless Madrid come up with 150m somehow... and he has started fairly poorly, needs to improve his ball retention. Hopefully we can get a song out of him as the season goes on...

 

[DomesticTadpole]

https://www.skysports.com/football/...-by-arsenals-matteo-guendouzi-in-france-squad

He must be better than Pogba....he's replaced him in the France squad now

Paul Pogba (owing to ankle scans in Manchester) & Raphaël Varane (undergoing a dental procedure in Madrid) will not arrive at France's Clairefontaine base today.



Get French Football News @GFFN

Didier Deschamps suggests Paul Pogba could withdraw from the France squad: "For Raphaël, we won't need a replacement, just a question of timing. For Paul I don't know, we are waiting for the results, I will keep you updated."


15:09
Pogba out of France squad
Confirmed.

 

[Full bodied red]

1) That simply means you were always biased.

2) You probably shouldn't feel good that our player isn't doing as well as he could, even if it makes you 'right'... or at least you shouldn't say it out loud

No...I wasn't biased, but I did have an opinion based on what I'd seen week in week out during his time in Turin. He was, but not so much now ( which is a fair indication itself on how this deal has worked out ) feted as a demi-God at the time, so every Sunday it was the ' Paul Pogba and 10 others from Turin ' show on TV. I watched it most weeks and really couldn't believe that we were prepared to pay a World Record fee for someone who ( 1 ) didn't look like a world class player most weeks, and ( 2 ) had walked out on us just a couple of years before.

And I don't feel good. Honestly, I don't feel good on days like Saturday. Conned, cheated, angry, even sometimes just disappointed, but not ' good '....

 

[SATA]

I like that he’s out of the national squad. France never fail to play him 90 minutes every game and not give him a break. Rest now at home and get ready for the PL and EL games ahead. We are going to need him big time

 

[He'sRaldo]

No...I wasn't biased, but I did have an opinion based on what I'd seen week in week out during his time in Turin. He was, but not so much now ( which is a fair indication itself on how this deal has worked out ) feted as a demi-God at the time, so every Sunday it was the ' Paul Pogba and 10 others from Turin ' show on TV. I watched it most weeks and really couldn't believe that we were prepared to pay a World Record fee for someone who ( 1 ) didn't look like a world class player most weeks, and ( 2 ) had walked out on us just a couple of years before.

And I don't feel good. Honestly, I don't feel good on days like Saturday. Conned, cheated, angry, even sometimes just disappointed, but not ' good '....

Fair enough, although I think the bolded is a bit harsh.

 

[Matt6677]

Sorry thought he only had a year left on his contract but do we really want to keep a player who doesnt even want to be here?

Heard Real Madrid are gonna make an improved bid before their transfer deadline ends

 

[Leftback99]

He was limping badly at the end of the game on Saturday.

 

[0le]

Sorry thought he only had a year left on his contract but do we really want to keep a player who doesnt even want to be here?

Heard Real Madrid are gonna make an improved bid before their transfer deadline ends

I heard the cheese is made out of the moon. Or something like that.

 

[The midfield general]

Needs to improve ball retention, he is supposed to be one of the best midfield players in the world, He,s playing and acting like a ten bobber. I am positive he is passing to the opposition on purpose.He was never that bad before he came here,he,s playing for a move and the sooner it happens the better.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

I see people saying we badly need him... Is that not right for your best paid, star player, that he is vital to the team