LGBT Relationship Lessons in UK Schools

[SilentWitness]

This post is very hypothetical. I'm in an interracial marriage and I'd want my kid to be hetero because Mauritius only decriminalised homosexuality not that long ago and prejudice is deep there.
It maybe selfish, but I don't want my kid being schooled in an environment where they'd be bullied mercilessly or have to hide who they are.
The in-laws would be horrible too. On one level maybe that's in selfish, in that with it would be a nightmare, but also, do you really want your kid to have to be one of the early pioneers fighting for exception in the face of extreme prejudice?
If we were both solely UK-based I don't think I'd be bothered either way.

How odd. My partner is Mauritian/English!

I understand where you’re coming from and others when they say for those reasons they’d rather their child was heterosexual but I think it’s a bit counterproductive. It’s a difficult situation for many to still comprehend but as explained it doesn’t make them any less human or capable as anyone else. I’d be happy if my child was or wasn’t. If they weren’t I’d hope that they were a child who was open to everyone and accepting of it and advocated for more LGBT rights. The same if my child was LGBT. Of course I don’t want my child to be bullied but there are a plethora of other things that they may be bullied for aside from sexuality.

The crux of the issue probably comes down to preference/actively wishing they weren’t. Actively wishing they weren’t I can see as being harmful and homophobic, preference teeters the line perhaps depending on your reasons.

 

[MadMike]

Great input Mike, 10/10 would read again.

Thanks matey!

 

[Jippy]

How odd. My partner is Mauritian/English!

I understand where you’re coming from and others when they say for those reasons they’d rather their child was heterosexual but I think it’s a bit counterproductive. It’s a difficult situation for many to still comprehend but as explained it doesn’t make them any less human or capable as anyone else. I’d be happy if my child was or wasn’t. If they weren’t I’d hope that they were a child who was open to everyone and accepting of it and advocated for more LGBT rights. The same if my child was LGBT. Of course I don’t want my child to be bullied but there are a plethora of other things that they may be bullied for aside from sexuality.

The crux of the issue probably comes down to preference/actively wishing they weren’t. Actively wishing they weren’t I can see as being harmful and homophobic, preference teeters the line perhaps depending on your reasons.

I think that's fair. Randomly it was the Aussie referendum on gay marriage that revealed how ropey my in-laws views are on the subject. My wife's sister lives there and they were unimpressed she voted in favour- her husband didn't.

Was shocking finding out otherwise really nice, decent people can have such views on one segment of society.

They hate it if you point out that the Mauritian flag looks like the gay one.

 

[Zlatattack]

Being gay doesn't mean you don't want to have kids.

Many gay people have kids.

Thier own kids? Or adopted kids?

 

[mitChley]

Thier own kids? Or adopted kids?

Does that matter?

 

[2 man midfield]

Does that matter?

He said homosexuals cannot pro-create with eachother. Adoption, while still being parents, isn't pro-creating.

 

[Zlatattack]

Does that matter?

Well yeah. My whole point was about biological procreation being inbuilt in most humans, which in my opinion is a natural reason for heterosexual people to want heterosexual children and grandchildren.

 

[shamans]

I struggle to wrap my head around the smartarse “wanting your kids to be heterosexual is now discriminatory, eh?” argument that has reared its head several times in this thread — you would ideally want any kid(s) that you have (or end up having) to be comfortable with themselves, in body and mind, and find love/contentment with the right people for them (unless they're aromantic and/or asexual and have little interest in doing so, which would be totally cool as well). Like, whatever happened to being their biggest ally and genuinely happy for them as they truly are on an inherent level so they don't have to put up a front and wear invisible masks, instead of secretly wishing they were a wee bit different so things could be supposedly easier on the societal front?

You would want to be neutral on the whole homosexual/heterosexual spectral divide because both are valid expressions of sexuality. So what if there's resistance? That can be overcome and leads to progressive change — what an insipid place would the world be if we started cowering at signs or resistance or sporadic societal disapproval from milquetoast dunderheads. As callous as it sounds, reading some of these comments...I really wish the posters don't have non-heterosexual kids because they would unload their value system and creepy manifesto-of-copulation (what if they choose to be child-free in a heterosexual relationship and decide to adopt, not procreate) and indoctrinated biases onto them as a form of passive-aggressive wish fulfillment in subtle (or not-so-subtle) ways instead of empowering their kids with the choice free will — and if things don't go according to the preconceived master plan, potentially damage their identity in an irreparable way from a young age because they're aberrations that don't fit the perfect mold the parents have concocted in their heads. Then we wonder why so many are closeted and never come out, or have crippling self-esteem esteem issues, or are profoundly depressed, or suffer from cognitive dissonance in an existential sense.

Then again, people are capable of change of heart/thought and self-reflection and limitless empathy if they put their mind(s) to it, and maybe they'll be less overbearing/disappointed (even in a passive way) and more actively optimistic/helpful when they're actually in the position of having a homo/trans-sexual kid.

You're again TOTALLY missing the point and this thread has become yet another extreme left echo chamber.

Wanting your kid to be straight is simply wanting them to be comfortable in that way. If they are gay then that's a seperate thing and I wouldn't force then otherwise.

You're arguing validity of both sexual orientations. That is NOT my concern. My son choosing not to learn some of my cultural practices is also a valid lifestyle . Doesnt mean I can want him to learn it. My daughter thinking guitar is annoying is also valid. Doesnt mean I cant wish otherwise.

 

[Rado_N]

"extreme left echo chamber"

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

This whole post screams I have never raised children. You makes choices for your kids everyday until they are an adult. You have a plan and you make choices based on what you feel is best for them.

Do I think I can raise a straight kid better than a gay kid? Of course I bloody do, because I know nothing of the challenges a gay person faces.

How in the world does that now mean I'm homophobic because of that? Answer that instead of going on about projecting and the impact on the kid. Of course there is going to be impacts of a child being gay for child and parent because that's the nature of the issue.

No one in this thread is saying they will not love a gay child. They are simply saying if they could pick this is what they would pick.

Simply because you had sex and chose to keep the kid doesn't grant you any special insight into raising children.

I know a mom of 1 year who is a far wiser parent than parents of 15 year olds because she reads and learns and doesnt assume.

I don't think you realize how self centered and unhealthily demanding your posts sound. You look more concerned with how strangers perceive you on the internet demanding how you are seen as discriminatory rather than appearing interested in understanding healthy child development.

I hope you study some child development for a few months (start with the classics ike Erickson, Maslow and Piaget) before posting any more about being a parent.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Being gay carries the death penalty in some places, and in some carries a prison sentence. How can we ignore those places in such a discussion? Sure, it doesn't affect myself as a potential parent, but there are people in the world where it will be of huge importance.

Why would you choose to live and breed in such a place to begin with?

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

Simply because you had sex and chose to keep the kid doesn't grant you any special insight into raising children.

I know a mom of 1 year who is a far wiser parent than parents of 15 year olds because she reads and learns and doesnt assume.

I don't think you realize how self centered and unhealthily demanding your posts sound. You look more concerned with how strangers perceive you on the internet demanding how you are seen as discriminatory rather than appearing interested in understanding healthy child development.

I hope you study some child development for a few months (start with the classics ike Erickson, Maslow and Piaget) before posting any more about being a parent.

You can't really mean that actually raising children isn't an insight into raising children but reading a book on it is?

 

[George Owen]

You can't really mean that actually raising children isn't an insight into raising children but reading a book on it is?

Any asshole can raise a children. Only a few can raise children the right way.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

Any asshole can raise a children. Only a few can raise children the right way.

Any asshole can crash a car but I would sooner sit in the passenger seat next to a driver who has actually driven one than someone who has read every book on safe driving but never sat behind the wheel before.

 

[adexkola]

Reading through this thread, I have to wonder if these conversations were had about normalizing interracial couples in the classroom, in the 50s, 60s and 70s.

 

[2cents]

why can't you leave them be without fear of judgement through your patriarchal preferences? They don't have to carry on your traditions and be the flag-bearers of your culture just because you birthed/reared them because they're not components off an assembly line, and you shouldn't have a preference on the matter (because your hierarchy of preferences will be directly or indirectly communicated to them, even if you try to swallow the bitter pill). Instead of focusing on things that mean absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things, raise them to be intelligent, self-aware, self-sufficient, empathetic, well-informed humans that can make sounds decisions and don't harbor the same preferences biases that you do...that is actual progress and what we should be gunning for as a species

You’re asking a lot of humans there.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

You can't really mean that actually raising children isn't an insight into raising children but reading a book on it is?

If you choose to ignore the accumulated insight of experts and go all on instinct you're gonna feck up a helluva lot more than people who read Piaget and Erickson while also raising kids.

I know because my kids are all adults now.

 

[RussellWilson]

Simply because you had sex and chose to keep the kid doesn't grant you any special insight into raising children.

I know a mom of 1 year who is a far wiser parent than parents of 15 year olds because she reads and learns and doesnt assume.

I don't think you realize how self centered and unhealthily demanding your posts sound. You look more concerned with how strangers perceive you on the internet demanding how you are seen as discriminatory rather than appearing interested in understanding healthy child development.

I hope you study some child development for a few months (start with the classics ike Erickson, Maslow and Piaget) before posting any more about being a parent.

I'm not coming to Redcafe for advise on child development.

You know nothing about me and my relationship with my children, so don't come here telling me to read some book to improve you pompous twat.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

I'm not coming to Redcafe for advise on child development.

You know nothing about me and my relationship with my children, so don't come here telling me to read some book you pompous twat.

Then don't post in public if you don't want comments about the content of your posts.

If you don't want strangers commenting on your parenting style, then don't post about it.

 

[RussellWilson]

Then don't post in public if you don't want comments about the content of your posts.

If you don't want strangers commenting on your parenting style, then don't post about it.

Where anywhere have I posted about my relationship with my actual children which you decided to comment on?

You don't read so well for someone giving out reading lists.

Twat.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Where anywhere have I posted about my relationship with my actual children which you decided to comment on?

You don't read so well for someone giving out reading lists.

Twat.

Your posts have been quite revealing whether you realize it or not.

 

[esmufc07]

@RussellWilson stop insulting posters.

 

[RussellWilson]

@RussellWilson stop insulting posters.

Really? When someone gets rude and personal based on a post not even aimed at him you're calling me out?

 

[RussellWilson]

Your posts have been quite revealing whether you realize it or not.

Instead of addressing anything in the post, you get personal. So I'll continue calling you a twat.

 

[Synco]

It did make me reconsider my view-point so I think it worked well as a way to challenge my post. I'm happy to praise a post like that.

So it was a "fair point", did successfully "challenge your post", made you "reconsider", but then immediately became "fairly meaningless"? Sorry, but it's massively frustrating trying to argue with you this way.

But essentially the way society treats interracial couples is completely different to how it treats gay people.

So if we were talking about a white family in a hardcore racist part of 1960s Alabama, that attitude towards their child having a black partner would become valid and non-racist?

Being gay carries the death penalty in some places, and in some carries a prison sentence. How can we ignore those places in such a discussion?

Tbh, I could start posting my old replys again by now, which is not a good sign.

 

[sullydnl]

If you'd asked me in advance what this thread would look like by the time it reached page 18, this would be pretty close.

 

[RussellWilson]

listen cockface...you are the most vile cumstain I've ever encountered on this forum. You monopoloise this thread you come across with some half arsed one liner that would'nt qualify for the Joe Longthorne show and then present yourself like you are the King of comedy on American prime time. You epitimise most of what I detest about the internet...opinions formed at the drop of a hat....petty jokes at the expense of others with no thought for their feelings and most of all the self absorbing egotistical self correction of spelling that really points out to every other poster that the highlight of your day is a wank to "big tit weekly". You dont have the friends here you perceive yourself to have and have the intellect of a gnat and the culmanation of this sceario will be your demise in a slow and agonising manner.

Been reading the caf before even this post buddy.

 

[esmufc07]

Been reading the caf before even this post buddy.

take a breath and calm down. We can all have a civilised (and heated!) discussion without insulting each other. If we can’t do that then we are no better than the French, and nobody likes the French.

 

[RussellWilson]

take a breath and calm down. We can all have a civilised (and heated!) discussion without insulting each other. If we can’t do that then we are no better than the French, and nobody likes the French.

I'll be bowing out of the thread for this very reason.

 

[esmufc07]

I'll be bowing out of the thread for this very reason.

are you French?

 

[Rado_N]

 

[Raoul]

Russell Wilson will be on IR for the next couple of days.

 

[BusbyMalone]

Well this thread took a turn

 

[SteveJ]

Won't somebody think of the children?!?

 

[Rado_N]

Russell Wilson will be on IR for the next couple of days.

I vote we bring MuffledFunk back off IR and leave that dipshit unavailable.

 

[esmufc07]

Meanwhile across the pond....

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[Wibble]

Thier own kids? Or adopted kids?

Their own. Sometimes from previous relationships and sometimes using donor eggs or sperm. Others do of course adopt. I know gay couples in all three situations.

 

[Carolina Red]

Russell Wilson will be on IR for the next couple of days.

 

[Tarrou]

@Synco I think that if you live in a country where being gay is illegal its not homophobic to want your kid to be straight because your natural instinct is to want to protect them from that culture. Do you disagree? By all means explain why and I'm happy to listen. I don't think you've managed to articulate why exactly thus far, but by all means quote yourself if you think you have. I'm sure I could be wrong about this.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about though. Apologies for quoting you @Jippy but I think it's a very strong and valid point.

This post is very hypothetical. I'm in an interracial marriage and I'd want my kid to be hetero because Mauritius only decriminalised homosexuality not that long ago and prejudice is deep there.
It maybe selfish, but I don't want my kid being schooled in an environment where they'd be bullied mercilessly or have to hide who they are.
The in-laws would be horrible too. On one level maybe that's in selfish, in that with it would be a nightmare, but also, do you really want your kid to have to be one of the early pioneers fighting for exception in the face of extreme prejudice?
If we were both solely UK-based I don't think I'd be bothered either way.

Does that not seem a logical stance of a parent to you?

And yes, using race as an example puts a new perspective on it which is good, but ultimately you can't compare the situations like-for-like due to their enormous complexities. Surely you don't disagree? You are quite correct I should not have used the word meaningless, that was wrong. In any case, I'll respond to your question.

So if we were talking about a white family in a hardcore racist part of 1960s Alabama, that attitude towards their child having a black partner would become valid and non-racist?

If you don't want your kid to have a black partner purely because they are black - it's racist. If you don't want your kid to not have a black partner because you fear for their safety - it's not.

I am not 100% sure of that opinion either, but for me if it is racist it's borderline. And in the interests of not shutting down a discussion before it gets going, I'd lean towards not labelling someone as racist or homophobic, if I consider that reasonable, because continuing the discussion is much more productive.

 

[maniak]

This discussion reminds of the new law here in portugal where transgender teens (in process of changing sex and followed by doctors, etc.) can pick which bathroom to use at high school.

Conservatives went nuts and some parents too, but when reporters went on to talk to the actual high school kids they couldn't find one that was against it. They tried for hours in dozens of schools and the kids either couldn't care less or were in favor of it. A couple of stories actually surfaced that in a couple of schools kids actually organized themselves to let it happen without the school knowing, which was pretty inspiring.

Adults need to stop treating kids like they're babies, they know what's going on and they don't have an entire life of listening to religious and conservative bs, so they're fine with these things and they're not going to change their sex preference or gender because of it. They will learn new stuff, realize it's normal and move on. Unless they're then brainwashed at home or church but that's something we unfortunately can't control.

People are trying to protect kids and teens from something that is simply not there.