The players around him don't help and are a problem, but he contributes to that problem by being not very good and lacking the drive to get better. He was potential, now he's one of several players that need replacing in the starting 11.
Are Martial's problems to do with the level of the team or independent of them?
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Its very easy to analyse. United have no real method of attack that isnt based on transition. Our midfield is pathetic as of now if were being honest. This includes the attacking mid position which is the biggest offender. Martial hunts for the ball because it wont come when we are not in transition. Add to this that sometimes we get regular hiccups from lingard/pereira even when we are trying to move the ball quickly. When martial and rashford play together one can stay forward while the other can hunt for the ball. This is why BOTH players struggle when the other is missing. So in summary Martial is struggling due to the level of the team. Its a quality of personnel and coaching. We have the same conversation about this every under performing week.
Mind you Im not including Pogba and Fernandes because the former is injured and the latter has yet to feature.
Mind you Im not including Pogba and Fernandes because the former is injured and the latter has yet to feature.
I think its clear that his best position is as the forward, his coaches from the youth academy will attest to that. However, its also clear to see that his development has severely stalled over the years, he has played for 3 managers and spent majority of the time playing as a left winger. He has strengths which are very ideal for a WC forward, mainly his holdup play, his link-up ability and finishing. His weaknesses are his aerial ability and off-the-ball movements. I think LVG had a project on him but 5 years later, and after several management changes, none of his weakness has seemed to get worked on. Is this the only season where he has been consistently played the forward position? Would love to see some stats.
I think Martial fits the profile the “technican“ type of forward, similar to Benzema. His link-up ability means he can combine with attackers and his technical ability allows him to interchange positions across a fluid front three. After Pogba he is easily our most talented player. It will be a massive shame if he couldn’t fulfill his potential here.
Yesterday, at some point I asked myself if he was actually able to leave the ground. He seems to have extremely heavy boots.
He's not a striker is he! He wants to play there been given the chance, and he doesn't take it, needs to be more physical, Ariel ability needs improving a lot, doesn't gamble on crosses, always drops back, no runs to near post for a flick on or even a shot , most always goes far post, easier for defenders.
This is a lack of quality provided to him as well as his inability to move into promising positions, his dribbles against the better sides more than often losses the ball, but it's his best attribute, better as a wide man with some space, I'm not ready to give up on him yet, perhaps another striker in squad may drive him to improve his game.
If he doesn't improve by next season, I can see him moving on, probably back to France, his age now is when players start to flatten out to what there going to be at 23, next season year older then by the time he's 26 it's game over for him, and UTD for any decent transfer fee. Let's just hope he can improve or he has to move positions.
This is a lack of quality provided to him as well as his inability to move into promising positions, his dribbles against the better sides more than often losses the ball, but it's his best attribute, better as a wide man with some space, I'm not ready to give up on him yet, perhaps another striker in squad may drive him to improve his game.
If he doesn't improve by next season, I can see him moving on, probably back to France, his age now is when players start to flatten out to what there going to be at 23, next season year older then by the time he's 26 it's game over for him, and UTD for any decent transfer fee. Let's just hope he can improve or he has to move positions.
He’s just not actually that good and he’s pretty gutless.
That's exactly the point. If your best clip to debunk me is from 4 years ago.
Top teams strikers made that kind of contributions on weekly basis, not yearly
This is how jones getting his testimonial.
Wait another manager to prove his worth
Wait another partner
Wait another position
Wait wait wait.
He's 25?
By the time he's proven to be stagnating he'd be here for 10 years and wed wondering how in the world a player like him can get a testimonial.
We're not rutless enough. We give players 10 years to prove themselves
How are you comparing Martial to Jones man.
Seen this said a lot lately after seeing a lot of calls for that being his position when on the wing, where his flaws are highlighted even more in my opinion.
Starting to think he'd be best if happy in a backup role, but there's no way he would be. Giving him the number 9 ages ago, before moving it to Zlatan, seems to have made him think he's more important than he is.
There isn't a single attacker at this club playing at their ceiling. That's a crazy thing to say given how inept this team is going forward.
Maybe it was an imaginary ceiling
The caf has this funny notion that young players (20-23ish) can get much better if they're already good at 20-23.
Sometimes they don't, not every player is Ronaldoesque. some players plateaued at 23, most at 25.
He's certainly a striker for high quality sides and not hit in hope one's. He really isn't one to run around getting into channels hoping for hopeful over the top balls. Hes been very strict with his positioning and if the others dont commit a defender to open up space, he generally doesn't run in behind.
The biggest issue I have with him is that he seems unfit. Although you could probably say that about most of our side. Watching Lukaku at Inter really makes you wonder what exactly is happening at our training sessions.
We're a very old fashioned side. We still aren't all that organized in our pressing and our passing patters are a free for all. Unless we get a high quality coach and more quality players he's bound to suffer. Gosh, we've even seen the likes of Poga struggle in these circumstances.
The biggest issue I have with him is that he seems unfit. Although you could probably say that about most of our side. Watching Lukaku at Inter really makes you wonder what exactly is happening at our training sessions.
We're a very old fashioned side. We still aren't all that organized in our pressing and our passing patters are a free for all. Unless we get a high quality coach and more quality players he's bound to suffer. Gosh, we've even seen the likes of Poga struggle in these circumstances.
Whilst I dont disagree with your notion that players often plateau at the age of 23, the fact is only in quality attacking sides with quality players are attackers playing at their best. We have neither so our players who have quality will suffer.
So much potential...moments of brilliance quickly followed by moments of pissh!
He has the odd moment of sheer brilliance where he scores an amazeballs goal or two...but then can't do the basics required of a forward for the next two games.
Blows hot and cold, but he's mainly tepid.
Squad player, find a replacement, and hope he comes right in a year or two...?!
He has the odd moment of sheer brilliance where he scores an amazeballs goal or two...but then can't do the basics required of a forward for the next two games.
Blows hot and cold, but he's mainly tepid.
Squad player, find a replacement, and hope he comes right in a year or two...?!
23 has replaced 28 as the new peak age now? Many players also play their best football after 25, so nothing is exactly conclusive. I mentioned at the start of the season that we should be looking elsewhere for his replacement if he doesn't start delivering. He has done ok-ish so far, and if he ends the season with 20 goals I think we can be optimistic for next season.
Odd - before any consideration of the players surrounding him you have to look at Martial on his own. He has consistently failed to trap a ball passed into him in the past few games. He has consistently misdribbled a ball. He has all of a sudden developed cinder block feet in the box when faced with a chance.
These are all symptoms of only 2 things. Fatigue and injury. He is our only striker is being forced to be there.
The things he is failing to do is not normal for him. We can't even begin to consider his surroundings when he's failing to do what he does best.
These are all symptoms of only 2 things. Fatigue and injury. He is our only striker is being forced to be there.
The things he is failing to do is not normal for him. We can't even begin to consider his surroundings when he's failing to do what he does best.
When you are strictly talking about a number 9, not second striker, not winger, not wide forward, you only have to take a look at Ibra. He was much older than Martial, passed his peak, had spent years playing in french league and his team mates at United weren't exactly world beaters either. But you coud feel his presence, He scored important goals, He scored goals out of nowhere and when He was not scoring He still caused havoc by battling with opponents defenders. When He's tightly marked He dropped deep to pick up the ball. That's a great number 9. Martial just isn't one. Martial is more of a Second Striker or Wide Forward. The fact that Martial has done better overall this season as a number 9 than Rashford doesn't mean He's a great number 9.
So Martial's problem is He's not a pure number 9. He can't lead the line alone but We kept expecting him to.
So Martial's problem is He's not a pure number 9. He can't lead the line alone but We kept expecting him to.
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For me it seems fairly straightforward: it's not about how good he is, it's about how much responsibility he is suited to. He struggles if he's the team's go-to attacker and goal threat. He isn't energetic enough to regularly escape the close attention that earns him from the opposition. When he's on the pitch with Rashford, Rashford is the danger man and that gives Martial the breathing space to pop up and do his thing.
Both of them are much better together than on their own, but Rashford can still produce his best on his own. Martial is the more dependent of the two.
Both of them are much better together than on their own, but Rashford can still produce his best on his own. Martial is the more dependent of the two.
That's a great post and brilliant example in fairness. I'd be all over bringing in Cavani for this reason alone, a genuine striker leading the line can do so much for a side.
Martial could be a lovely player in the right system, but he's not a 9 and he's not a LF either.
Tbh these days he generally looks quite clueless on the ball. He'll try a little shimmy and very occasionally he'll get lucky and go past someone but usually he'll just lose the ball or take the safe back pass. Similarly with shooting, he seems to just hit and hope. I had really high hopes for him but he's just an average player in an average team.
That is grossly unfair. Remember his first season? Our pivotal game for Champions League qualification was at West Ham, penultimate game of the league season. Check out how he did... He was our best player at Stamford Bridge last season, in a really really tough game at a place we traditionally struggle. Scored a late winner against Spurs, scored the winning goal at the Etihad, and of course remember what he did on his debut against Liverpool.
I already said above that he's not as good as I hoped he would become but it's certainly not because he "bottles it", or "goes back hiding". Did the job on plenty of big occasions, under pressure.
Hopefully at the weekend he'll get a hatrick from Bruno assists and put this to bed 
I agree with this, but then I'd add that his work rate and endeavour makes it difficult for him to be a wide or deep player. In this era of high presses and defending from the front, Martial can't, or won't, keep up at the required level. Its like we try him deeper or wider, but his lack of work rate means we have to move him up front. So we move him there but the fact he's not a natural number 9 means we try him deep or wide again. Rinse repeat.
I think Martial could really benefit from the Fernandes signing especially if we revert to a 4-3-3 which I think we might. Having a 10 stops him coming deep which he seems to like. Otherwise I can see us getting a target man and Martial being pushed out wide if we keep the 4-2-3-1.
I know Owen could be a WUM sometimes but he also said the same thing RVP said about Martial. He said the midfield needs to help him by giving those balls that he could best thrive on. Berbatov pointed out that strikers are misunderstood in that the positions they need to take or be depends on them. Meaning the ball should be passed to where they want and not where the midfield players or others want. If Martial wants cut backs then give the ball to him, where he wants. If it's done and still he fails to deliver then it becomes his problem.
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For a midtable team striker the above would be hailed as good. But if we're aspiring to be back to where we belong i.e. title challenger blowing hot and cold is the last we need.
Small teams needs flair player to pull a rabbit out of the hat. Great teams needs a consistent striker who will deliver 99 times out of 100.
In recent year we have become soft. We accept that 2-3 months of bad patch as normal. It isnt normal, even if it's normal you find back your form in training. Not in real match.
Back in saf times underperformer are benched, you dont see players like lingard stinking the place out week in week out. Martial would have seen less of game time under saf, if any.
We really cant afford to play one striker and bank our season on martial, no matter how high his ceiling are.
Fair or not depends on where our aspirations lies.
For a midtable team striker the above would be hailed as good. But if we're aspiring to be back to where we belong i.e. title challenger blowing hot and cold is the last we need.
Small teams needs flair player to pull a rabbit out of the hat. Great teams needs a consistent striker who will deliver 99 times out of 100.
In recent year we have become soft. We accept that 2-3 months of bad patch as normal. It isnt normal, even if it's normal you find back your form in training. Not in real match.
Back in saf times underperformer are benched, you dont see players like lingard stinking the place out week in week out. Martial would have seen less of game time under saf, if any.
We really cant afford to play one striker and bank our season on martial, no matter how high his ceiling are.
Funny that you mention this because both Rooney and Berbatov are hardly the bastion of consistency. Even in Fergie's final season RVP had a 10 game goal drought.
I agree with most of that! I'm just saying that Martial blowing hot and cold, and being inconsistent and somewhat unreliable is not down to a lack of mental strength. He's not "bottling it". He simply has flaws in his game that never got ironed out, neither via coaching nor his own hard work.
That's true, Rooney had those two or three months every year but we never relied on him to score and SAF never forced him to be something he wasn't. There is a reason why Rooney was always someone's sidekick during our successful seasons, it's not a slight on a player but you have headliners and second roles, as you mentioned earlier in the thread Martial seems to be in the second category as Benzema was for Real Madrid.
Now the thing about these second role players is that if you can't find a successful formula that exploits their qualities then it's best to move on and try to find something different. But for us the issue is that I do think that Martial suits Rashford and I don't think that Rashford would thrive in a system where he has to be a creator, where he has to feed or help the type of striker that the caf wants. Even if we were to sideline Martial, I believe that we should look at an upgrade in the exact same role.
I think the thing about forwards like Rooney, Martial and Benzema is that they are "associative" forwards, in that they generally play their best football when paired with someone who is a direct goal threat. That's where their ability of linking up play and versatility will shine. We played our best football when Rooney was playing with Saha, Hernandez or RVP.
Neither of the 3 players mentioned are reliable goalscorers, their finishing can be incredibly hit and miss and they generally don't have the instincts in the box. In some cases they can mature into a complete forward in the later part of their career, like it did with RVP and Benzema.
Personally, I think forwards like Martial have a rare skillset and that they will be a valuable asset in any team. Before the season I thought this will be his last season here because we don't seem to know how to best ultilise him. Since then Ole has sold Lukaku and he has enjoyed a good partnership with Rashford, the rest is really up to Martial to work on his weakness because his positioning and movements can be atrocious. I don't know if its something the coaches never worked on with him or just simply a lack of understanding of his role. I think his issues can be easily worked on in the training ground. Natural ability has never been the question for Martial.
I agree, Cavani would be a good short term solution.
He'll get his chance with better wide players and better midfielders over the next couple of years but I am legitimately stunned at anyone who isn't worried he'll be out of the league in 3 seasons if he continues on like this. He's barely shown any fundamental improvement in his all round ability as a striker. Even at the start of this season there was a brief flash of something worth sitting up and exclaiming like @Rood "ohkay, ohkay, I like where this is going". Rashford is just the all round better striker in every facet and if we're improving other positions then I don't see Martial being able to keep his spot over the next few years.
Would be interesting as a 25 minute man off the bench against tired legs in a better functioning team but on 200+ bics a week I don't see that happening.
Would be interesting as a 25 minute man off the bench against tired legs in a better functioning team but on 200+ bics a week I don't see that happening.
Probably does think he's more important than he is, do you think he's up to the task of main striker? He's been played there all this season in the main, and not delivered anything realy. If he becomes back up striker he will want out, we need a top striker so it may be he does go in the summer, let's just see.
It seems simple and obvious to me. He is no good at playing up top on his own, he needs someone to play off.
Told ya. Everytime we had a chance to close the gap he goes missing
Again, it's not because of mental toughness or bottle or some shite like that. His movement is not good enough, he doesn't use his strength well enough and he has relatively poor anticipation. All of these things would have been coachable to a certain extent but that never seemed to happen.
It's too bad really, he's at the age when many strikers usually are in their prime. I had high hopes for him but it's becoming clear he's not the man to lead the line, good option to have from the bench though.
His movement is so poor. He drifts out wide and just disappears. On so many occasions we just have nobody in the box as he's not gonna bust a gut to get there. If that's a tactical choice from the management then you have to wonder why.
Sad to say but our new loan striker will probably be an upgrade. Hopefully he can hold the ball up and bring others into play, maybe feed of the few crosses we get in.