Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[theklr]

I think another consideration we need to think about is the transfer strategy.

Say Ole gets 5th without any trophies and gets the sack. Are they going to let a new manager choose other transfer targets and embark on a whole new strategy? Since we dont have any DoF there will be a vacuum in the decision making, and we all dread having Ed Woodwards as the transfer chief.

Because I think that the general consensus is that OGS transfers have been good so far. Expensive and obvious maybe, but still. Another manager would definately have different requests.

And the summer targets seems to be exactly what we need (Sancho, Graelish, Dembele, Zakaria), so it will be a shame if that doesnt go through.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I think another consideration we need to think about is the transfer strategy.

Say Ole gets 5th without any trophies and gets the sack. Are they going to let a new manager choose other transfer targets and embark on a whole new strategy? Since we dont have any DoF there will be a vacuum in the decision making, and we all dread having Ed Woodwards as the transfer chief.

Because I think that the general consensus is that OGS transfers have been good so far. Expensive and obvious maybe, but still. Another manager would definately have different requests.

And the summer targets seems to be exactly what we need (Sancho, Graelish, Dembele, Zakaria), so it will be a shame if that doesnt go through.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/transfer-committee-recruitment-team.453591/

We won't be making that mistake again, that stopped after 5 seasons of Moyes, LVG and Mourinho picking and choosing their favourite players, often ones they've worked with before with no thought as to whether or not they can be part of a long-term or in some cases, even short-term plan.

If Ole carries on like he has since 31st January, he won't be getting sacked for finishing 5th.

 

[b82REZ]

I think another consideration we need to think about is the transfer strategy.

Say Ole gets 5th without any trophies and gets the sack. Are they going to let a new manager choose other transfer targets and embark on a whole new strategy? Since we dont have any DoF there will be a vacuum in the decision making, and we all dread having Ed Woodwards as the transfer chief.

Because I think that the general consensus is that OGS transfers have been good so far. Expensive and obvious maybe, but still. Another manager would definately have different requests.

And the summer targets seems to be exactly what we need (Sancho, Graelish, Dembele, Zakaria), so it will be a shame if that doesnt go through.

I don't buy this cultural rebuild is exclusive to Ole. The writing was on the wall during Jose's last summer that the board were being more hands on with transfers and were clearly vetoing the manager's request.

While we don't have a DoF in the traditional sense we clearly have some sort of committee that have assumed some of the responsibilities of a DoF.

 

[Mr. Christian]

I

I talk about shit loads more, just have a look at my post history. However, whenever I talk about Ole so far it's the most important figure by a mile when judging his season so far. Everything else is well, nothing more than personal opinion with a mixture of either pessimism or optimism depending on which side of the fence you fall on.

I'm hopeful it increases massively now he has Fernandes and soon Pogba back, his PL win rate will ultimately decide if he stays in the job or not.

I reckon making the Champions League will determine if Ole stays or not, given the outlay.

As I have said previously, weather Ole should have been made permanent is another debate entirely.

However, Ole is the man, he clearly has a plan which sits very snug with the United way. His acquisitions all look strong and the team is starting to look like the United of old.

And... Ole is a club legend, knows his footy, knows United, would bleed for the club and deserves at the very least till the end of the season.

I feel there are too many negative comments against Ole and quite frankly this is disrespectful given what he has done for the club.

Being a cub legend does indeed offer a bit more job protection, but that’s not to say that if things go sour he should remain. So far he’s doing a good job given we are in transition.

 

[Mr. Christian]

Liverpool play counter attack football and are running away with the league and won the Champions League last year

Only difference? Liverpool have got the players to do it well...

Klopp counter attacking? What the feck am I reading?

He's the "gegenpress" king, his tactics have always focused on winning back the ball high and fast. How on Earth can that be a counter attacking side where you actually need the opposition to have much of their team high into your half?

Mmmm, The Scouse are indeed a possession based high press team. Watford are a counter team! You hit the nail perfectly on the head there bud.

 

[crossy1686]

I don't buy this cultural rebuild is exclusive to Ole. The writing was on the wall during Jose's last summer that the board were being more hands on with transfers and were clearly vetoing the manager's request.

While we don't have a DoF in the traditional sense we clearly have some sort of committee that have assumed some of the responsibilities of a DoF.

The cultural rebuild is something that the staff have been asking for, including Solskjaer. However, Solskajer is the face of it as he's the only manager that's spoke about actually doing it.

Mourinho was hired as a direct response to City getting Pep. He was brought in to compete with City to ensure they didn't dominate, which also meant our signings become more about the "here and now". Once it became apparent Mourinho wasn't going to be able to compete the transfer strategy changed which pissed Mourinho off because he thought he was getting players who were good to go at big fees.

Also, we're just about to appoint an 8 man analytics team so I highly doubt a DOF will happen now.

 

[Mr. Christian]

IF Ole ends up being a success here, feels like it'll be such a disappointment to some of the posters on here considering the argument repeated is mostly lack of tactics and incompetence, inspite of evidence and argument against it.

Bang on brother. Great results against the top clubs. Far from tactically naive!

Too much negativity on here, and not enough respect for the man.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

The cultural rebuild is something that the staff have been asking for, including Solskjaer. However, Solskajer is the face of it as he's the only manager that's spoke about actually doing it.

Mourinho was hired as a direct response to City getting Pep. He was brought in to compete with City to ensure they didn't dominate, which also meant our signings become more about the "here and now". Once it became apparent Mourinho wasn't going to be able to compete the transfer strategy changed which pissed Mourinho off because he thought he was getting players who were good to go at big fees.

Also, we're just about to appoint an 8 man analytics team so I highly doubt a DOF will happen now.

Agree with all of that.

 

[b82REZ]

The cultural rebuild is something that the staff have been asking for, including Solskjaer. However, Solskajer is the face of it as he's the only manager that's spoke about actually doing it.

Mourinho was hired as a direct response to City getting Pep. He was brought in to compete with City to ensure they didn't dominate, which also meant our signings become more about the "here and now". Once it became apparent Mourinho wasn't going to be able to compete the transfer strategy changed which pissed Mourinho off because he thought he was getting players who were good to go at big fees.

Also, we're just about to appoint an 8 man analytics team so I highly doubt a DOF will happen now.

Yes, Ole is the first manager to mention a reboot but as I said I think that was happening regardless of who the manager was and I expect that work will continue next season regardless who is charge.

I just still feel there are better options out there to continue the groundwork and take us to the next level.

 

[b82REZ]

I

I reckon making the Champions League will determine if Ole stays or not, given the outlay.

As I have said previously, weather Ole should have been made permanent is another debate entirely.

However, Ole is the man, he clearly has a plan which sits very snug with the United way. His acquisitions all look strong and the team is starting to look like the United of old.

And... Ole is a club legend, knows his footy, knows United, would bleed for the club and deserves at the very least till the end of the season.

I feel there are too many negative comments against Ole and quite frankly this is disrespectful given what he has done for the club.

Being a cub legend does indeed offer a bit more job protection, but that’s not to say that if things go sour he should remain. So far he’s doing a good job given we are in transition.

This reads as if you're struggling to distinguish between the manager and player. His playing career has no impact on his performance now and vice versa. He'll always be a playing legend and I'll always love and respect the man, however that doesn't make him immune from criticism. You don't see such nepotism at other clubs that have ex players in charge.

 

[crossy1686]

Yes, Ole is the first manager to mention a reboot but as I said I think that was happening regardless of who the manager was and I expect that work will continue next season regardless who is charge.

I just still feel there are better options out there to continue the groundwork and take us to the next level.

Like who though? And that's a serious question. I think there's far too many managers out there who care more about their CV than what happens to Manchester United in 3 to 5 years' time.

I'm not convinced that any manager we would bring in would want anything more than big funds, on big names, leaving us in the same position we were in under Mourinho. Also, what manager wants to work under a board that tells them who they're allowed to sign? In which case we would need a DOF in the mould of Solskjaer to make sure the club is signing players that are good for the long term development and culture.

 

[Bilbo]

Yes, Ole is the first manager to mention a reboot but as I said I think that was happening regardless of who the manager was and I expect that work will continue next season regardless who is charge.

I just still feel there are better options out there to continue the groundwork and take us to the next level.

Well, technically, hiring Ole was part of the reboot. It wasn't as simple as 'change the profile of players we are looking at'. It was way bigger than that, and Ole was identified and hired as someone who Woodward thought had the right strengths to pull that off.

I have to say I find it extremely blinkered and also still agenda-driven that people are now trying to paint all of this as 'ah well, anyone could and would have done all of this stuff and it would have happened anyway'.

 

[Bilbo]

This reads as if you're struggling to distinguish between the manager and player. His playing career has no impact on his performance now and vice versa. He'll always be a playing legend and I'll always love and respect the man, however that doesn't make him immune from criticism. You don't see such nepotism at other clubs that have ex players in charge.

Pretty sure that he has had more than his fair share of criticism

 

[RUCK4444]

Yes, Ole is the first manager to mention a reboot but as I said I think that was happening regardless of who the manager was and I expect that work will continue next season regardless who is charge.

I just still feel there are better options out there to continue the groundwork and take us to the next level.

Who are these managers you speak of? Do they intimately know the pressures and expectation at this club, will they hit the ground running and deliver results within weeks of arriving? Will they improve the existing players they inherit like Ole has? Will they rise to the occasion of the big games like Ole or fold? Will their recruitment be spot on like Ole? Will they give every promising youth product we have chances like Ole?

If not then I fail to see how these impatient fans will back him and it makes absolutely no sense to get rid of Ole now that we have started to make some progress.

I suppose your thinking Poch or Nagelsman? Whoever it may be, we have form for getting rid of managers and making a mess of things, before you know it we sack that manager, panic hire another who wants to go in a totally different direction. All while having no director of football to maintain the balance of the side.

The painfully slow progress we have made can very quickly be ripped apart.

 

[crossy1686]

Well, technically, hiring Ole was part of the reboot. It wasn't as simple as 'change the profile of players we are looking at'. It was way bigger than that, and Ole was identified and hired as someone who Woodward thought had the right strengths to pull that off.

I have to say I find it extremely blinkered and also still agenda-driven that people are now trying to paint all of this as 'ah well, anyone could and would have done all of this stuff and it would have happened anyway'.

There will be lots of goalpost changing in the coming weeks regarding all this, especially since anyone could have done it, Bruce or Ince...

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Well, technically, hiring Ole was part of the reboot. It wasn't as simple as 'change the profile of players we are looking at'. It was way bigger than that, and Ole was identified and hired as someone who Woodward thought had the right strengths to pull that off.

Agreed but Woodward did not identify Ole man This had SAF/Gill (who sit on the board) all over it.

I have to say I find it extremely blinkered and also still agenda-driven that people are now trying to paint all of this as 'ah well, anyone could and would have done all of this stuff and it would have happened anyway'.

I don't think anyone is saying that at all. Ole could have vetoed everything if he didn't fancy it, so he's obviously fully on board with all the incomings and outgoings, plenty of the in/outs are probably his own suggestions also. We'll never know will we? So better if we're just pleased we seem to be heading in the right direction and that we don't get all cocky and gloating like we did in December and then fall off a cliff again (I don't think we will in fairness).

 

[b82REZ]

Like who though? And that's a serious question. I think there's far too many managers out there who care more about their CV than what happens to Manchester United in 3 to 5 years' time.

I'm not convinced that any manager we would bring in would want anything more than big funds, on big names, leaving us in the same position we were in under Mourinho. Also, what manager wants to work under a board that tells them who they're allowed to sign? In which case we would need a DOF in the mould of Solskjaer to make sure the club is signing players that are good for the long term development and culture.

Most clubs now have a DoF or some sort of structure the manager answers to. We're very much a throwback to a bygone era and modern managers are used to working with someone above them.

In regards to the manager I would choose. Poch would be an instant upgrade IMO. Has very similar values and has a proven track record in this league whilst utilizing youth. He's also proven to be able to work with budgetary constraints as well as working with a DoF structure which as club we are clearly moving towards.

I acknowledge there has been a huge upturn in performances recently but tactically we still look no better than the start of the season. IMO Ole will never make us a particularly exciting team to watch and most of our good moments are borne from individual brilliance.

I'd love to be served a huge slice of humble pie in regards to the manager but I just don't see him being here, leading us to success in a few years so why persist with a manager that wont take us back to the top?

 

[b82REZ]

Well, technically, hiring Ole was part of the reboot. It wasn't as simple as 'change the profile of players we are looking at'. It was way bigger than that, and Ole was identified and hired as someone who Woodward thought had the right strengths to pull that off.

I have to say I find it extremely blinkered and also still agenda-driven that people are now trying to paint all of this as 'ah well, anyone could and would have done all of this stuff and it would have happened anyway'.

There's no way Woodward chose Ole. Ole was clearly a feel good recommendation from SAF. Stories were rife at the time that Woodward was perusing Poch and wanted to sign him in the summer.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

There will be lots of goalpost changing in the coming weeks regarding all this, especially since anyone could have done it, Bruce or Ince...

But absolutely ANYONE could have had the first half season we had, and said yes to Maguire and AWB.

What Ole is doing now though, that is a different story, so let's hope he keeps it up.

 

[b82REZ]

Pretty sure that he has had more than his fair share of criticism

Read what the poster I was replying to said and then consider that statement.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

There's no way Woodward chose Ole.

I always enjoy the idea of Woody sat down in Miami chatting to the Glazers about what to do with Maureen, and then from nowhere Woody stands up "I've got it, that assassin bloke from the Museum pictures! You know, from 1999, he's the guy".

Of course it was SAF and Gill that suggested bringing back Phelan and Ole.

 

[b82REZ]

Who are these managers you speak of? Do they intimately know the pressures and expectation at this club, will they hit the ground running and deliver results within weeks of arriving? Will they improve the existing players they inherit like Ole has? Will they rise to the occasion of the big games like Ole or fold? Will their recruitment be spot on like Ole? Will they give every promising youth product we have chances like Ole?

If not then I fail to see how these impatient fans will back him and it makes absolutely no sense to get rid of Ole now that we have started to make some progress.

I suppose your thinking Poch or Nagelsman? Whoever it may be, we have form for getting rid of managers and making a mess of things, before you know it we sack that manager, panic hire another who wants to go in a totally different direction. All while having no director of football to maintain the balance of the side.

The painfully slow progress we have made can very quickly be ripped apart.

The most defeatest, flawed logic you regularly see regurgitated on this site and specifically in this thread. Cant even be arsed to tear this apart because @Regulus Arcturus Black has done it numerous times in the thread when others have spouted the same crap.

 

[b82REZ]

I always enjoy the idea of Woody sat down in Miami chatting to the Glazers about what to do with Maureen, and then from nowhere Woody stands up "I've got it, that assassin bloke from the Museum pictures! You know, from 1999, he's the guy".

Of course it was SAF and Gill that suggested bringing back Phelan and Ole.

It boggles the mind. All interviews at the time with Ole made it clear he was an interim and he acknowledged that himself. Woodward got caught up in the Paris hysteria as I, and many others did. If that result hadn't occurred I genuinely believe we'd have shipped Ole back to Norway.

 

[crossy1686]

Most clubs now have a DoF or some sort of structure the manager answers to. We're very much a throwback to a bygone era and modern managers are used to working with someone above them.

In regards to the manager I would choose. Poch would be an instant upgrade IMO. Has very similar values and has a proven track record in this league whilst utilizing youth. He's also proven to be able to work with budgetary constraints as well as working with a DoF structure which as club we are clearly moving towards.

I acknowledge there has been a huge upturn in performances recently but tactically we still look no better than the start of the season. IMO Ole will never make us a particularly exciting team to watch and most of our good moments are borne from individual brilliance.

I'd love to be served a huge slice of humble pie in regards to the manager but I just don't see him being here, leading us to success in a few years so why persist with a manager that wont take us back to the top?

Some clubs have a DOF. City have one, and he's worked with Pep for as long as Pep has been a manager so he knows exactly what Pep is looking for to play his brand of football.
Liverpool use statistics and a committee for transfers.
Arsenal tried it then binned it.
Chelsea have Abromavich.
Tottenham have Levy.
PSG have Henrique, who's looking like he might leave at the end of the season after falling out with the owners for not signing players he wanted the club to sign.
AC Milan have Leonardo who's looking like he might get fired, if he's not already.
Bayern have a board transfer committee.

I won't go on to list the rest but the only one's that are really successful are the likes of Dortmund, Leipzig and Leicester.

My choice would be Bielsa or Pochettino, should Solskjaer get the sack at some point but I firmly believe they will fail without a proper DOF structure in place. I'm also pretty sure that managers like Pochettino work hard at increasing their reputations so they can get moves to clubs like United and be allowed to buy big name players so they can win trophies, not so they can do exactly what they were doing at Tottenham but under more pressure. There's not a fecking chance anyone on here would tolerate him throwing the cups away like he did at Tottenham, nor would we tolerate big European night bottling.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

It boggles the mind. All interviews at the time with Ole made it clear he was an interim and he acknowledged that himself. Woodward got caught up in the Paris hysteria as I, and many others did. If that result hadn't occurred I genuinely believe we'd have shipped Ole back to Norway.

Well not just Paris, much that went before was obviously considered and Ole did a cracking job getting the entire place and fanbase buzzing again.

I've also zero doubt that SAF/Gill (and not Ed fecking Woodward) had a big part to play in selling Ole as a viable long term permanent candidate for this new rebuild.

 

[b82REZ]

Some clubs have a DOF. City have one, and he's worked with Pep for as long as Pep has been a manager so he knows exactly what Pep is looking for to play his brand of football.
Liverpool use statistics and a committee for transfers.
Arsenal tried it then binned it.
Chelsea have Abromavich.
Tottenham have Levy.
PSG have Henrique, who's looking like he might leave at the end of the season after falling out with the owners for not signing players he wanted the club to sign.
AC Milan have Leonardo who's looking like he might get fired, if he's not already.
Bayern have a board transfer committee.

I won't go on to list the rest but the only one's that are really successful are the likes of Dortmund, Leipzig and Leicester.

My choice would be Bielsa or Pochettino, should Solskjaer get the sack at some point but I firmly believe they will fail without a proper DOF structure in place. I'm also pretty sure that managers like Pochettino work hard at increasing their reputations so they can get moves to clubs like United and be allowed to buy big name players so they can win trophies, not so they can do exactly what they were doing at Tottenham but under more pressure. There's not a fecking chance anyone on here would tolerate him throwing the cups away like he did at Tottenham, nor would we tolerate big European night bottling.

I completely agree with you btw wxcept the rubbish about Poch would expect the same here as at Spurs. I do believe we have a structure in place now despite not naming an official DoF.

There's been numerous mentions of our transfer committee who are essentially acting as our DoF while leaving some of the jobs to the manager.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I'm also pretty sure that managers like Pochettino work hard at increasing their reputations so they can get moves to clubs like United and be allowed to buy big name players so they can win trophies, not so they can do exactly what they were doing at Tottenham but under more pressure.

Spending €214m in your first year as manager is hardly "exactly what they were doing at Tottenham" is it @crossy1686?

 

[Bilbo]

Agreed but Woodward did not identify Ole man This had SAF/Gill (who sit on the board) all over it.



I don't think anyone is saying that at all. Ole could have vetoed everything if he didn't fancy it, so he's obviously fully on board with all the incomings and outgoings, plenty of the in/outs are probably his own suggestions also. We'll never know will we? So better if we're just pleased we seem to be heading in the right direction and that we don't get all cocky and gloating like we did in December and then fall off a cliff again (I don't think we will in fairness).

Obviously SAF and Gill have input on quite a lot of things, but if you think that our CEO didn't make the decision on who was manager (after his recent track record of failure) then I don't know what to say on that.

By the way, just me I suppose, but I wouldn't use so many condescending laughing smileys if I'd gotten as much wrong in recent months....

 

[ReddBalls]

What Ole is doing now though, that is a different story, so let's hope he keeps it up.

It really isn't. We're just starting to reap the rewards from the work he has done at the club since he was appointed.

 

[Bobcat]

Klopp counter attacking? What the feck am I reading?

He's the "gegenpress" king, his tactics have always focused on winning back the ball high and fast. How on Earth can that be a counter attacking side where you actually need the opposition to have much of their team high into your half?

Well, they are though, sort of.

Liverpool are 5th in long balls and 1st in counter attack goals. What makes their high press so effective is that they go straight into attack when they win the ball high and the opponent defense is not settled. That's the whole idea. If you press and chase to win the ball, only to start passing it sideways it kinda defeats the whole purpose of the high press

 

[b82REZ]

Obviously SAF and Gill have input on quite a lot of things, but if you think that our CEO didn't make the decision on who was manager (after his recent track record of failure) then I don't know what to say on that.

By the way, just me I suppose, but I wouldn't use so many condescending laughing smileys if I'd gotten as much wrong in recent months....

I'll just leave this here

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ma...-manchester-united-statement-on-jose-mourinho

Hardly a statement of intent to move forward with the CEO's first choice Norwegian manager.

 

[Bilbo]

I'll just leave this here

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ma...-manchester-united-statement-on-jose-mourinho

Hardly a statement of intent to move forward with the CEO's first choice Norwegian manager.

I never said he was hired as a sure thing - thats obviously not the case. If you think that we didn't bring him in (even on trial) because of certain qualities that he possessed then you are mistaken.

 

[crossy1686]

Spending €214m in your first year as manager is hardly "exactly what they were doing at Tottenham" is it @crossy1686?

If Pochettino had the balls to sell Kane he might of had the same luxury!

 

[e.cantona]

Bang on brother. Great results against the top clubs. Far from tactically naive!

Too much negativity on here, and not enough respect for the man.

Ye.. Tactics was the big argument at one point. Has shown to be quite the opposite.

 

[lysglimt]

Compare the team we have now to the team we had in Mourinhos last game - and if he can manage that with a net spend of £110-120 million - I will gladly give him £110 millions more to spend. When we played City - for the first time in 4-5 years I wasn't worried we would get overrun by City. Thats how far he has taken us....

Add Pogba and Rashford to our starting 11 and I would not fear Liverpool. And there are people still talking about sacking him ? What is wrong with you people

 

[ReddBalls]

Fascinating how new narratives are emerging now. Ole is suddenly not responsible for transfers, the cultural reboot is Woodward's masterplan, anyone could do what ole has done.

Boggles the mind that fans of the club is unhappy watching a bona fide club legend proving himself as a manager at top level under a pressure not one single individual on this site is capable of imagining.

 

[RUCK4444]

The most defeatest, flawed logic you regularly see regurgitated on this site and specifically in this thread. Cant even be arsed to tear this apart because @Regulus Arcturus Black has done it numerous times in the thread when others have spouted the same crap.

Ha yeah, defeatist is to back your manager is it? Nice one

Ive had quite a few chats with Regulus and I’d say Ole is proving me right at the moment.

Again usually the anti Ole rhetoric in a nutshell is ‘we can do better.’

‘Poch’

‘Nagelsman’

‘Anybody!’

Now that’s what I call defeatist. It takes a bit of balls to soak up the hard times when you can see improvement (if you let yourself.)

 

[b82REZ]

I never said he was hired as a sure thing - thats obviously not the case. If you think that we didn't bring him in (even on trial) because of certain qualities that he possessed then you are mistaken.

Ahh, the mystical "qualities" that only you and other staunch Ole supporters are aware of.

Look back at any interview or statement by the club or manager at the time of his appointment, it was all about raising morale and that was Solskjaer's whole raison detre

 

[lysglimt]

I

I reckon making the Champions League will determine if Ole stays or not, given the outlay.

As I have said previously, weather Ole should have been made permanent is another debate entirely.

However, Ole is the man, he clearly has a plan which sits very snug with the United way. His acquisitions all look strong and the team is starting to look like the United of old.

And... Ole is a club legend, knows his footy, knows United, would bleed for the club and deserves at the very least till the end of the season.

I feel there are too many negative comments against Ole and quite frankly this is disrespectful given what he has done for the club.

Being a cub legend does indeed offer a bit more job protection, but that’s not to say that if things go sour he should remain. So far he’s doing a good job given we are in transition.

No it wont. Unless the club collapses in the last 9 games - he will stay. And rightly so. If we end up 1 point behind Chelsea because they suddently show great form should be totally irrelevant to whether he stays or not.

If we in our last 9 league games - win 5, draw 3 and lose 1 - and end the season with something like 15-16 wins in the last 23-24 matches in all competition, it would make zero sense to fire him simply because Chelsea win their last game rather than getting a draw.

 

[londonredmaniac]

The first bad result over the next few weeks and all the daggers will be back out.