But without doing the hard things, suspending the Premier League also becomes trivial.
Could they void the PL due to the Coronavirus? | No | Resuming June 17th
- Thread starter Tarrou
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Apologies if it's been mentioned in the thread but is a postponement really on the cards and would the whole season be just written off? Not just Liverpool's title but the relegation places, CL places etc? I assume therefore the next season would have the same champions league teams as this year. A clarification must be in the rules somewhere.
Zero point closing stadiums when everyone is commuting to work and generally living their lives as normal. The gov has so much fear of the economical implications of locking down London for example, they've not really done anything when in reality anyone who can work from home should do, people should avoid public transport unless absolutely necessary, we shouldn't have any public gatherings of any kind, everyone can easily order shopping online and actually self isolate effectively but we won't because we're human and we get bored/don't take it seriously/want to see our mates. As it is it'll keep spreading and then we'll have a lock down way too late.
I think how things progress in Italy will inform the decison. Italy has gone big with public closure and "lockdown" but, by all accounts, these are not being enforced practically and in many cases are being flagrantly ignored. So if the infection rates continue to rise and the death toll with it then this approach may get discredited and things open up again.
As others have said this is more about managing the demands on a health system than actually reducing it's overall impact. Other approaches that may happen would be to "protect" at risk groups and quarantine them, rather than trying to lockdown the general population.
So it could be the case that schools / colleges, care homes go into lockdown but stay open and people over 60 get told to self isolate. These groups are easier to control than the general population and will also be more likely to adhere to the advice. Keeping kids in school and OAP's in their homes makes them easier to monitor and evaluate.
The only fact that makes it still possible that the league could be cancelled to me is that Nadine Dorries has contracted it. The fact that such a senior politician got it and went on to attend cabinet meetings whilst infected has thrown a lot of government into absolute hysteria about maintaining control of this.
If the Italian "lockdown" is seen to have an immediate impact (perhaps more by luck than judgement) then pressure will build massively over the next week or so for the UK to follow suit and if we do then the FA will just be told to apply a solution immediately.
As others have said this is more about managing the demands on a health system than actually reducing it's overall impact. Other approaches that may happen would be to "protect" at risk groups and quarantine them, rather than trying to lockdown the general population.
So it could be the case that schools / colleges, care homes go into lockdown but stay open and people over 60 get told to self isolate. These groups are easier to control than the general population and will also be more likely to adhere to the advice. Keeping kids in school and OAP's in their homes makes them easier to monitor and evaluate.
The only fact that makes it still possible that the league could be cancelled to me is that Nadine Dorries has contracted it. The fact that such a senior politician got it and went on to attend cabinet meetings whilst infected has thrown a lot of government into absolute hysteria about maintaining control of this.
If the Italian "lockdown" is seen to have an immediate impact (perhaps more by luck than judgement) then pressure will build massively over the next week or so for the UK to follow suit and if we do then the FA will just be told to apply a solution immediately.
You're confusing advice for this phase with what they're expecting to do shortly in subsequent phases and you'll see the people your basing this on change their tune shortly. You only need to look at the UK governments own planning doc to see this but from what I've heard from friends in the civil service their internal planning is stricter.
The required practical measures that would need to be taken to allow these events to go ahead just isn't feasible for many events. You could allow them for a few more weeks but it's easier to cancel rather than make the needed adjustments.
I believe it to be more likely that UEFA postpone the euros for a year in order to free up room in the schedule
Bang on the money.
Sorry Smores, but have the WHO advised all public large events to be cancelled or not?
Not true at all. We have a finite number of ITU beds. If just one person ends up in critical care because they picked up the virus at a PL game, then preventing that person attending that game will have benefited the NHS. Like I keep saying, some of the other measures (closing schools, shutting down the tube) might prevent a lot more cases but there's an important cost to society consider in taking those actions. The cost to society of stopping people going to watch PL matches is utterly insignificant in comparison.
Seems the more sensible idea but I guess it depends on how long this situation goes on for.
I bet Jose will be praying it happens so he can get Kane and Son back. We get could Rashford fit again maybe
I get your point Pogue but there's so much evidence that people will congregate in smaller areas instead, pubs etc and no evidence whatsoever that closing off sporting events without doing the "hard things" has any effect.
It might, if all of those people then just stayed at home and self isolated, but they won't.
I hope the UK stick to their guns and focus more on educating people on hand washing, not touching face, no hand shakes etc. I'm fairly certain that even with Premier League games suspended or played behind closed doors, or vice versa, we'll have as many cases by May.
They probably don't spread it more than a lot of other activities, so there wouldn't be much to write about.
But minimise interaction between people, in ways that minimises disruption, it will help to slow down the spread.
The more activities you restrict, the more the spread will be slowed.
Getting the balance right is the difficult bit
But you don't need to keep spreading your sentences out though Vintage, they aren't contagious are they?
But if you are to make restrictions, you start at the bottom, with things that will cause the least disruption. That's common sense. It's not just football, it's lots or sports and gigs, and other things will likely follow. Until it looks like it is under control.
The number of over 65s hospitalised for typical seasonal flu is an order of magnitude higher than ALL hospitalisation due to COVID-19 currently and will continue to be so for at least a couple of weeks. You're taking a complete disproportional measure and would never open a football stadium from October to March if this was your risk appetite.
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It won't be under control though, that's our entire point. It'll be trivial.
14:03David Dubas-Fisher
United in 'coronavirus hot spot'
Manchester United are in one of English football’s coronavirus hot-spots with one case for every 40,000 residents in the area.
The Premier League match between Arsenal and Manchester City has been postponed, with several Gunners players in self-isolation. It’s the first game in England to be affected by the spread of Covid-19, which has already wreaked havoc on footballing schedules across Europe. Brighton’s home game against Arsenal is still set to go ahead, at the time of writing, though the Seagulls are in English football’s Covid-19 hot-spot.
There have been eight reported cases in Brighton and Hove - the local authority where the club is located - according to the latest data from Public Health England. That works out as one for every 36,299 people living in the area. No other club in the top four divisions of English football is based in a local authority with more cases per person.
There have so far been four cases in Trafford, the local authority in which United are based. That works out as one case for every 59,093 people living in the area. Only four clubs in English football have more cases per person in their local authority - Oldham Athletic (one case for every 58,906 people), Brentford (54,156), Millwall (39,657) and Brighton.
There have been five cases in the Manchester local authority, at the time of writing, which contains City’s Etihad stadium. That works out as one case for every 109,525 people.
United in 'coronavirus hot spot'
Manchester United are in one of English football’s coronavirus hot-spots with one case for every 40,000 residents in the area.
The Premier League match between Arsenal and Manchester City has been postponed, with several Gunners players in self-isolation. It’s the first game in England to be affected by the spread of Covid-19, which has already wreaked havoc on footballing schedules across Europe. Brighton’s home game against Arsenal is still set to go ahead, at the time of writing, though the Seagulls are in English football’s Covid-19 hot-spot.
There have been eight reported cases in Brighton and Hove - the local authority where the club is located - according to the latest data from Public Health England. That works out as one for every 36,299 people living in the area. No other club in the top four divisions of English football is based in a local authority with more cases per person.
There have so far been four cases in Trafford, the local authority in which United are based. That works out as one case for every 59,093 people living in the area. Only four clubs in English football have more cases per person in their local authority - Oldham Athletic (one case for every 58,906 people), Brentford (54,156), Millwall (39,657) and Brighton.
There have been five cases in the Manchester local authority, at the time of writing, which contains City’s Etihad stadium. That works out as one case for every 109,525 people.
No one has proposed all public events be closed that would be ridiculous and not how guidelines are laid out especially by an independent advisory body.
Have the WHO recommended event closures and social distancing as part of the plan to stop community transmission? Yes they have.
I can't share the link but you can google "Responding to COVID 19 Community Transmission". The WHO website and Gov.uk website have plenty of documents on this.
When you're out of a job due to decision making like that and the life of a family begins down a slippery slope, let me know how you will feel. You've already seen the massive ramifications for this virus for airline staff.
The contribution that live sport brings to economies is absolutely massive, particularly in the North West of England. You don't throw that all away for the transmission of a potential new case or two.
Again, if the risks change, you reassess.
Absolutely shite journalism. Fairly certain Old Trafford is closer to the midpoint of Manchester and Salford LAs than it is Trafford LA. It lies right on the edge of Trafford.
Measuring how many cases are close to Old Trafford based on the Trafford LA footprint is absolutely moronic and irresponsible.
Looking at the tables in the Championship and others they all have 9 games left. 4 or 5 home games. Maybe the FA, Premiership could help out for a couple of home games if force behind close doors.
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An independent body like the WHO can absolutely advise such things. I mean, you started off this debate by claiming "Mass Hysteria = World Health Organisation advice".
However, after googling your link the WHO recommend to "Define rationale and criteria for use of social distancing measures such as cancellation of mass gatherings or school closure."
So yeah, back to my original point, WHO haven't recommended it or even "advised" it and at this point in time, it's mass hysteria. Once the rationale and criteria change, it might be but it should then be done in conjuction with other lockdown measures, such as in Italy. Simply cancelling football and events and thinking that alone will make any significant difference is nonsensical.
I don't think the majority of people in the UK understand the reality of this outbreak, and the dangers of continuing what we are doing just because, artificially, we have a low number of cases. The US went from having 200 cases last Friday to having over a 1000 cases as of Tuesday. This number will very much increase over the next 10 days as more people get tested.
Check out this thread on Twitter, and start getting worried: I cannot post media yet but search for "jasonvanschoor/status/1237142891077697538"
They have pathologists and orthopaedic surgeons take care of patients on a ventilator! I can assure you as a doctor that you do not want these specialists to handle a ventilator. Best of all, they are given a pamphlet to make medical decisions! This is what happens when your medical capacity is exceeded several fold.
As someone alluded to earlier, suspending football, and the other measures that are being taken around the world are about "flattening the curve" to levels where we can handle this outbreak at the available medical capacity. I have seen so much drivel on this thread from people who know nothing about medicine and just spew out myths such that "the virus cannot survive outside the body for long". While this is true, it is only half the truth. The virus cannot survive outside the body for more than a couple of hours when the temperature is around 30 degrees Celsius. Otherwise these viruses linger on surfaces for a week or more. Last I checked, this is not the temp in England, and in places where it is actually warm such as Spain and Italy, the cases are actually very high, so even temp does not seem to have an effect. Second, this is a virus that spread through droplets as someone correctly pointed out earlier, the chances of you contracting the disease is higher if you are surrounded by people sneezing and coughing in your face or shouting their best "Glory glory Man United" at the top of their (likely infectious) lungs. Yes that includes being in the tube where all surfaces are disgusting, the ventilation system is terrible and people are in eachother's arsehole. Avoid the tube if you can, and if you can't bring with you a wipe so you can wipe off what you touch, don't touch your face without washing your filthy hands. For the love of God, stop listening to Donald trump and Boris Johnson, and get your damn facts straight. This virus has already infected and killed more people than the 2003 SARS outbreak. The reason we were able to stop the outbreak that time was because people showed symptoms early and they were isolated early before things got out of hands. The incubation period of this disease is 5 days and most do not show symptoms until 10 days after infection.
Sources:
Importance of Timing: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-51818427
Importance of Flattening the curve: https://www.vox.com/2020/3/10/21171481/coronavirus-us-cases-quarantine-cancellation
Virus can stay on inanimate surfaces for days: https://www.journalofhospitalinfection.com/article/S0195-6701(20)30046-3/fulltext
Dynamics of the infectious period: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/32150748
Stop being so egocentric. Football is not an essential activity, and should be suspended before we have an Italy situation.
Check out this thread on Twitter, and start getting worried: I cannot post media yet but search for "jasonvanschoor/status/1237142891077697538"
They have pathologists and orthopaedic surgeons take care of patients on a ventilator! I can assure you as a doctor that you do not want these specialists to handle a ventilator. Best of all, they are given a pamphlet to make medical decisions! This is what happens when your medical capacity is exceeded several fold.
As someone alluded to earlier, suspending football, and the other measures that are being taken around the world are about "flattening the curve" to levels where we can handle this outbreak at the available medical capacity. I have seen so much drivel on this thread from people who know nothing about medicine and just spew out myths such that "the virus cannot survive outside the body for long". While this is true, it is only half the truth. The virus cannot survive outside the body for more than a couple of hours when the temperature is around 30 degrees Celsius. Otherwise these viruses linger on surfaces for a week or more. Last I checked, this is not the temp in England, and in places where it is actually warm such as Spain and Italy, the cases are actually very high, so even temp does not seem to have an effect. Second, this is a virus that spread through droplets as someone correctly pointed out earlier, the chances of you contracting the disease is higher if you are surrounded by people sneezing and coughing in your face or shouting their best "Glory glory Man United" at the top of their (likely infectious) lungs. Yes that includes being in the tube where all surfaces are disgusting, the ventilation system is terrible and people are in eachother's arsehole. Avoid the tube if you can, and if you can't bring with you a wipe so you can wipe off what you touch, don't touch your face without washing your filthy hands. For the love of God, stop listening to Donald trump and Boris Johnson, and get your damn facts straight. This virus has already infected and killed more people than the 2003 SARS outbreak. The reason we were able to stop the outbreak that time was because people showed symptoms early and they were isolated early before things got out of hands. The incubation period of this disease is 5 days and most do not show symptoms until 10 days after infection.
Sources:
Importance of Timing: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-51818427
Importance of Flattening the curve: https://www.vox.com/2020/3/10/21171481/coronavirus-us-cases-quarantine-cancellation
Virus can stay on inanimate surfaces for days: https://www.journalofhospitalinfection.com/article/S0195-6701(20)30046-3/fulltext
Dynamics of the infectious period: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/32150748
Stop being so egocentric. Football is not an essential activity, and should be suspended before we have an Italy situation.
RAWK have banned all chat about this even being a possibility
Quick one @aosmdee, did football match attendance cause the problems in Italy or has it been shown that it was part of the problem? Same question for China obviously.
You see to me on a bit of an aggro trip with this i dont know if you'rea liverpool fan but i don't care about winning an argument. The document quite clearly lays them out as useful measures for Covid-19 something you've disputed, the laying out set criteria is in reference to forming a plan which they don't do if it isn't an advised action.
We're more or less at the point for the next phase which is where the likes of PHE have said these measures will then be taken. For domestic events being cancelled it's probably premature, for events with people travelling from hotspots it's a measured response. None of this is hysteria and private firms are not cancelling events due to public pressure.
Have a nice pandemic
Regulus, the lack of evidence does not confirm or deny that these measures are not effective either. The studies have not been done yet (too early to tell). Why does the lack of evidence disprove that this works, while conveniently it proves that it doesn't work? It is not just football that is being targeted. It is ALL gatherings. I doubt they will do a study to just evaluate the impact of suspending football.
I'm struggling to see how a mortality rate of 3% is worth having fun at a football game. China is seeing a dramatic reduction in new cases today because they quarantined an entire region of the country. If the UK don't take action immediately, more people than should have, WILL die.
I'm not sure what your point is here.
They have had decades to complete a study though and SAGE have said that banning people from attending sports events, where scientists regard an infectious person as unlikely to pass the disease to very many around them, could be counter-productive if people instead watch matches in pubs, where the disease is more likely to spread.
I think there's as much chance that without a full lockdown that by cancelling football and other events, we are instead pushing people into gathering in smaller venues such as pubs, restaurants, cafes etc. Where will all the United fans in Austria go tonight? To small pubs, packed to the rafters and with a much higher chance of spread/infection right?
I’m guessing you mean United fans. ‘The reds’ are Liverpool.
Come on you reds, come on you reds, just keep your bottle, and use your heads,
It's 90 minutes we'll let them know, who's Man United here we go.
#fact
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All the top experts I have listened to have said we actually do not know this virus very well at all. It is new and the research carried out to date isn't definitive.
Football is just entertainment. In the big picture it’s not really important. Just cancel the league for Christ’s sake! Temporary suspension off players would also be right
Roma can't play their europa tie, getafe refusing to travel to Milan. Wolves don't want to go to olympiakos. Arsenal team are in self isolation.
Trying to continue from here is madness,things are just going to get worse.
Season should be delayed a x finished when it can be then maybe clubs could agree to a shorter league next time round to account for the delay finishing these seasons. Eg play everybody once with a draw to determine home and away games.
Trying to continue from here is madness,things are just going to get worse.
Season should be delayed a x finished when it can be then maybe clubs could agree to a shorter league next time round to account for the delay finishing these seasons. Eg play everybody once with a draw to determine home and away games.
Suspending crowds? Fully agree but the games, really? CL and Europa fair enough but is there any real need for domestic games to go?
The odds of under 50s dying from the virus are 0.2%. If you haven't been to China that alone significantly reduces those odds, don't have underlying health issues that reduces it further and I imagine if they're healthy athletes further still. Add that to further precautions they almost surely take then they're probably more likely to die on route to games than through the virus.
By all means prospone games to be replayed later for one certain club if a significant amount of players have to self isolate, but if it comes down to it games could still be played with just the players, officials and cameramen if need be with potentially at risk coaches (like Roy) managing from a far like managers with touchline bans do.
I've been going to Old Trafford for nearly 30 years and every time they kick off I say "come on you reds" without fail. We're the reds too. I'm fully aware that the dippers call themselves that though.
This has been clear for a while imo, just a question of how the FA, PL and the rest handle it.
Null and voiding the entire season and starting again when safe to seems the most sensible plan to me.
No guarantee when games can be played without fans spreading the virus further and if squads are affected would make a mockery of fair competition.