Protests following the killing of George Floyd

[Ekkie Thump]

I can see your point but as far as reasons go, I think the fact they are certainly going to cost innocent people their lives is a pretty big one.

If I told you that you can go to a Black Lives Matter protest, as long as some black people die of a virus as a result of you going, then unless you actually had no regard for black lives, I'd say it's fair to assume you wouldn't go. If you do go then the best excuse available is that you're really stupid.

If you can give me a convincing argument to the contrary then fair enough, but I can't think what it would be.

I personally would like to go to one of these protests but will not do so due to Covid. I'm sympathetic to your argument that it's a mistake, quite possibly counterproductive and likely to lead to a growth in cases and deaths. Then again I'm a white dude who has no direct experience of police brutality or racism to animate me beyond a common sympathy. I don't feel like I should impugn the motives of someone who's personal calculus is different even if I disagree with the actions that come out of them.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Absolutely out of control:

Spoiler

this looks like it's outside of Toronto Police HQ.

 

[Abizzz]

Where have all these all lives matter people been before "black lives matter"? Where was their movement? Why didn't they do anything so that indeed all lives mattered? Surely if all lives had mattered stating "black lives matter" would be superfluous. Yet the fact remains that it isn't. And if you're of the opinion that that isn't the case your opinion is easily refuted by facts:
https://www.thebalance.com/the-racial-life-expectancy-gap-in-the-u-s-4588898

So please, do something that shows that all lives do indeed matter, or at least have the fecking class to stop using it as a contrarian talking point before bemoaning the lack of respect that is shown towards "other opinions" on here.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Rightwing vigilantes on armed patrol after fake rumours of antifa threat

'In the Idaho city of Coeur d’Alene groups of 30-50 men armed with semi-automatic weapons have occupied downtown streets on successive evenings this week, guarding against supposed busloads of radical leftists rumored to traveling from cities such as Spokane or Seattle, according to local residents and social media materials obtained by the Guardian.

Videos posted to social media by supporters of the vigilante groups showed dozens of people walking up and down a downtown shopping strip, with many open-carrying AR-15s and other semi-automatic long guns, and sporting tactical apparel.

In a cellphone video, as a videographer pans over the scene, he is heard to say: “If you guys are thinking of coming to Coeur D’Alene, to riot or loot, you’d better think again. Because we ain’t having it in our town.”

He adds: “I guess there’s a big rumor that people from Spokane are gonna come out here and act up. But that shit ain’t gonna happen.”'


(Guardian)

Coeur d'Alene, though a beautiful little town, is just that. A little town that not even people 90 minutes away in Spokane would waste their time going to if they aren't planning to go camping or skiing.

 

[Carolina Red]

I said all lives matter

Saying black lives matter is in no way a statement that other lives don’t.

People didn’t respond with something like “all lives matter” to Boston Strong, Stand with Vegas, Je suis Charlie, Peace for Paris, etc.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

So, years ago I was sympathetic to the statement all lives matter but it's true that all lives can't matter until black lives matter (white lives already matter).

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The pandemic will be finished in the near future and the world will still turn; the overwhelming majority of the world’s population unaffected. When this happens, institutional racism will remain alive and kicking, and black people will still suffer at the inequality of the system. Real change in relation to this movement would blow the negative effects of the virus out of the water. One protest doesn’t change systems, and therefore lives, immeasurably, but over time one can only hope.

Well, exactly. That’s my point. Racism has been an issue since long before the pandemic. And will need to be fought long after the pandemic is over. So taking to the streets to protest against racism, for several days in a row, right now is starting to seem a bit stupid.

Different circumstances in the US, obviously, as @Leroy The Red said above (EDIT: and below!). I’m only criticising the UK/Ireland protests. That really need to stop. They’ve made their point. Go home.

 

[Ludens the Red]

On the contrary though, nothing you did on picadily square or trafalgar would matter, but collectively between you, canada, german, etc it could really make a difference.

It's one thing having american on nation wide protest, the whole western civilization joining in is the game changer

Yeah this would be fine except we have got the corona virus still lingering around. You can’t completely ignore that. Ultimately this is a long game. If people (in particular non black people in the U.K. ) are truly wanting to help then they need to be in this for the long haul. Racism isn’t going to end in the next few weeks. In several months time when hopefully there’s a handle on this pandemic we’re in, people worldwide will need to come out again in there masses to protest and id argue it’d be a more powerful statement doing it then. It’s a marathon not a sprint. Though like I previously said I don’t think America had a choice. The protests there have almost certainly had an impact on the George Floyd case too.

 

[Carolina Red]

Coeur d'Alene, though a beautiful little town, is just that. A little town that not even people 90 minutes away in Spokane would waste their time going to if they aren't planning to go camping or skiing.

Hometown of Dan Cummins of the TimeSuck podcast!

 

[Ødegaard]

What the hell are you lot on about?

I say that all lives matter and I get these strange replies? Black lives matter too, all lives matter, what is the problem here?

Glad you asked.
All lives matter is a response to black lives matter. It is there to deafen that people of color are calling out the brutal injustice that is done towards them.

Black lives matter doesn't mean other lives doesn't matter. It is a message that their house is on fire and it needs attention. Yelling all lives matter in this context becomes the same as asking for painkillers because all pain matters despite your wife being the one going into surgery and you once upon a time had a headache. Or to use the more common analogy: if your house is on fire, how would you feel if your neighbour asked for firefighters to focus on all houses, because all houses matter, when only your house remotely close by is currently on fire.

Your neighbour would look like an ass who isn't remotely informed on the subject.

 

[mu4c_20le]

I've not stated 'white' lives matter. Where did you get that from? I said all lives matter, but everyone here has somehow been offended by that and got all angry and had a go.. If me being mixed race and saying equality for all and all peoples lives matter is somehow wrong, then I don't know what to say.

Let me know when you regularly see whites, asians, mixed, being systematically discriminated against.. then we'll talk about all lives matter.

 

[P-Ro]

If BJ was my PM id be grateful people are protesting. Irrespective of whether or not there is a pandemic. As for the part about Syria, I don’t know what that even means.

You must be trolling.

 

[entropy]

Not during a pandemic. In fact, they’re likely to have the exact opposite effect. Amazing this needs to be pointed out.

I’ve said it before, I don’t know how anyone can be mad at their govts response to covid and also be mad at protestors.

 

[Dante]

What the hell are you lot on about?

I say that all lives matter and I get these strange replies? Black lives matter too, all lives matter, what is the problem here?

Obviously all lives matter. That's the default position. But making such a global statement distracts attention from shortcomings that might exist at a local level.

A lifeguard at a pool is there to oversee all lives. That's his purpose. But he can only do that when he's aware of all the kids in his care and of when they're struggling in the water. If one kid in particular is drowning, it's only right that this kid's cries get heard the loudest in that moment.

The Black Lives Matter movement is about recalibrating the system so that all lives can matter. All Lives Matter is not the current situation. You can only make all lives matter once black lives are brought into the fold. That's why the protests need to happen. Until then, ALM is just an empty phrase whose purpose is to ignore specific problems that won't get addressed otherwise.

 

[RedTiger]

Saying black lives matter is in no way a statement that other lives don’t.

People didn’t respond with something like “all lives matter” to Boston Strong, Stand with Vegas, Je suis Charlie, Peace for Paris, etc.

That would like being in the 1980s and saying "Ethiopians need to eat", and then some guy pipes up "no, all people need to eat". Both statements are true but the 1st statement would be the most pressing matter.

 

[Wumminator]

What the hell are you lot on about?

I say that all lives matter and I get these strange replies? Black lives matter too, all lives matter, what is the problem here?

My man ends a post bolding all lives matter. A phrase that he knows has been coopted with a racist slant and used to shut down the BLM movement.

You literally put it on its own line for impact.

When people OBVIOUSLY pick up on that, gives it the whole “what the hell, why are you so annoyed?”

People like you just can’t argue in good faith. Just have the balls to admit how you truly feel ffs and stop pretending to be outraged after a deliberately provocative statement.

 

[SteveJ]

Hilarious stuff:

SUFFRAGETTES AND FEMINISTS: "Women matter."
MEN: "Wow, what a bunch of sexists!"

BLACK PEOPLE: "Black people matter."
WHITE PEOPLE: "Wow, what a bunch of racists!"

 

[Ronaldo's Mum Eh?]

What are your opinions of Candace Owens video that went viral?

 

[Cascarino]

I can see your point but as far as reasons go, I think the fact they are certainly going to cost innocent people their lives is a pretty big one.

If I told you that you can go to a Black Lives Matter protest, as long as some black people die of a virus as a result of you going, then unless you actually had no regard for black lives, I'd say it's fair to assume you wouldn't go. If you do go then the best excuse available is that you're really stupid.

If you can give me a convincing argument to the contrary then fair enough, but I can't think what it would be.

I don’t want you to feel like I’m picking on you because I also quoted you in the other thread, but regarding your resistance to the protests (and I understand the context with the pandemic also taking place) but you’ve made a fair few posts about the lockdown and how workers should be going back. How’re you annoyed at colleagues who worked from home and why schools should be opening. You’re talking about millions of people when you make these points, a number far, far larger than the protests.

There's currently 30+ kids playing football that I can see from my window. There were 100+ of younger children in the park mostly with their parents. All mixing and playing with each other. Countless more groups of teenagers riding around on bikes or sitting about. All then going back to their families later, going into supermarkets, meeting other friends, etc.

Are the people who are so worried about schools being open actually being serious or living in some kind of delusion where no one's been outside for months? The only significant difference I can see it could possibly make is that it'll free up a lot of parents and mean a lot of struggling families can actually cope a lot easier. it will also stop thousands of poor people losing their jobs when shops inevitably reopen next month.

If someone has some kind of data that tells me otherwise please show me but it seems like a ridiculous thing to be bitching about to me. I would have thought the focus now should be purely on how to continue protecting the most at risk people going forwards, without completely taking their lives away from them. Especting kids to ever be able to go into school without any of them ever being ill is like closing all the roads then saying you wont re-open them until you can guarantee no one will ever crash their car again

This is all based on the premise the virus is still completely out of control though, which isn't really the case. The key factors they need is numbers to be down enough to test anyone with symptoms immediately, to be flexible in that individual schools can close again if there is a concern with cases of people attending, and to have necessary measures in place within the schools to control and monitor things correctly.

We are talking about a week and a half from now and realistically we are going to be at the first of those points by then, and the main thing obstructing the other two is less the virus and more people being obstructive to it. Over 3 weeks is enough time to put measures in place considering it should have been being discussed the whole time.

On your second point. Again, I keep saying this, but if that was the aim, we should have gone into lockdown MUCH sooner, and been fully monitering the case numbers MUCH MUCH sooner. We did neither of these things. I agree we should have done, obviously, but we didn't, and there isn't really much point plugging a leak in a boat after it's sitting at the bottom of the lake. You'll just drown yourself trying. There is an epidemic in care homes. The number of "elderly" or vulnerable who have died is already around 60,000...I know people don't want to accept it but the final number at this point isn't going to be far off the number if we'd done nothing at all. The main factor in saving lives at this point is and was making sure the NHS isn't overwhelmed.

Basically we waited until our last line of defence was in danger of getting breached before accepting we needed to do anything. It's not much use at this point trying to pretend we can still hide behind the other lines that aren't there anymore. How you monitor casse numbers and make sure they drop at this point changes little whether you start doing it now or in a month's time.

THis is also completely ignoring again the fact that we have a quite unique problem in this country with the sheer number of families who will struggle to survive due to the "economic impact". The number outweighs the likely death toll from the virus if 100% of the population got it. It's not a minor factor you just glance at and chuck to one side. At this point it's an absolutely massive concern that will threaten to overshadow the virus itself if it's not taken as seriously. THere are entire communities where i am who will be under threat. The same people who have used this as a stick to beat the tories with for years are the ones who are determined to ignore it just because it's no longer a weapon they can use, which makes me think that really they've never really had to experience or fully appreciate the scale of the problem. It's just ceased to be important because doing something to help suddenly isn't as simple as ranting from behind a computer or phone screen.

I don't think our government has done a good job at all, but at this point politics are nothing to do with it. I would put money on the fact the people advising the government at this stage are taking all these factors into consideration and coming up with a calculated plan that tries to balance them against each other. It is literally their job and what they spend all day doing, while clearly a vast majority of the people moaning about it have not done this. The biggest problem in all this is it took the government FAR too long to start listening to them.

I've tried all that mate but it helps little.

It's my job that's really doing it. Every day it leaves me either feeling really down or really pissed off or some combination of the two. Not much I can do about it at the moment though.

I thought I liked the people there but a majority of them are sitting at home doing nothing

90% of the local area here seems to be back to working as normal, while people at my workplace are still trying to pretend the zombie apocalypse is happening and expecting the tiny number of us actually coming in to do nearly all the work while everyone else "works from home"

 

[sammsky1]

So, years ago I was sympathetic to the statement all lives matter but it's true that all lives can't matter until black lives matter (white lives already matter).

And this post should really be an end to this matter in this thread.

 

[sebsheep]

So, years ago I was sympathetic to the statement all lives matter but it's true that all lives can't matter until black lives matter (white lives already matter).

It's the sort of thing when said by itself you wouldn't really argue with but when you realise why it's being said you view changes, or should really change them.

 

[JPRouve]

What are your opinions of Candace Owens video that went viral?

If you tell me that Candace Owens is the current Grand Wizard, I may believe you.

 

[2mufc0]

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[Ødegaard]

What are your opinions of Candace Owens video that went viral?

She was talking about Floyd being a bad guy?
If so, few criminals are a great people in the eyes of the law, it doesn't mens cops can execute them at will. Cops are there to make arrest, the justice system is supposed to take care of the sentencing.

 

[P-Ro]

I’ve said it before, I don’t know how anyone can be mad at their govts response to covid and also be mad at protestors.

Because both will result in needless deaths of people from COVID. The government response hasn't been strong enough and the protesters are giving a huge middle finger to the social distancing measures. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[noodlehair]

I personally would like to go to one of these protests but will not do so due to Covid. I'm sympathetic to your argument that it's a mistake, quite possibly counterproductive and likely to lead to a growth in cases and deaths. Then again I'm a white dude who has no direct experience of police brutality or racism to animate me beyond a common sympathy. I don't feel like I should impugn the motives of someone who's personal calculus is different even if I disagree with the actions that come out of them.

I'd possibly be there if it wasn't for the virus so I can get on board with what you are saying to an extent...but again we are talking about people dying and applying basic principles to that. It simply isn't possible to say "Black lives matter" and expect anyone to take you seriously while your actions are showing everyone that you don't think people's lives matter at all.

I could potentially take a different view if there was a end game but what is the end game with the protests in the UK? To turn the country against BLM protesters?

I don't judge the motives of someone who's situation I don't understand, but motives and actions are two very different things. A motive of wanting to fight against suffering from discrimination is different from using that to justify an action of doing something you know will kill innocent people.

I think we both know that if we cut through the bullshit, the mindset in most cases is likely more on the lines of "well I probably don't have corona so if people die as a result of me being here it isn't really my fault"...People who are so angry they need to protest purely out of emotion don't usually spend days producing loads of nice posters about it and organise it like some kind of ongoing music festival, nd happen to (from my social media anyway) be the exact same people who always crop up when there's a protest about pretty much anything else.

 

[Grinner]

Don't be a bellend.

People will die as a result of that protest. If I told you that you could go attend an anti racism march but only if I was allowed to murder 100 innocent people as a result, would you go? Or is it suddenly ok if I'm a virus rather than a person?

If they actually thought black lives mattered, they probably wouldn't be there causing black people to die of corona virus.

that's a good line to be fair.

 

[Ronaldo's Mum Eh?]

She was talking about Floyd being a bad guy?
If so, few criminals are a great people in the eyes of the law, it doesn't mens cops can execute them at will. Cops are there to make arrest, the justice system is supposed to take care of the sentencing.

She was saying that Floyd shouldn't be looked at as a "hero or martyr" as he was the same guy who held a gun at a pregnant lady and forced her to tell her where the money was in a forced home invasion.

 

[sammsky1]

That would like being in the 1980s and saying "Ethiopians need to eat", and then some guy pipes up "no, all people need to eat". Both statements are true but the 1st statement would be the most pressing matter.

Imagine what Bob Geldof would have replied if someone had said that to him

 

[RedTiger]

What are your opinions of Candace Owens video that went viral?

Haven't seen it, will you post here please?

 

[Kag]

Well, exactly. That’s my point. Racism has been an issue since long before the pandemic. And will need to be fought long after the pandemic is over. So taking to the streets to protest against racism, for several days in a row, right now is starting to seem a bit stupid.

Different circumstances in the US, obviously, as @Leroy The Red said above (EDIT: and below!). I’m only criticising the UK/Ireland protests. That really need to stop. They’ve made their point. Go home.

The unrest in the US is striking a chord with people in this country, as well as other cities in the world. The subsequent demonstrations have been sustained by emotion. For many of these people, they can’t decide when to feel angry or upset about the situation. That this has come to a head during a pandemic is ill timing; albeit arguably more powerful for it.

 

[Ødegaard]

She was saying that Floyd shouldn't be looked at as a "hero or martyr" as he was the same guy who held a gun at a pregnant lady and forced her to tell her where the money was in a forced home invasion.

Does't change my take on it.
"he was a bad guy"
He still got murdered by the police. They aren't supposed to execute people. They are supposed to arrest.

He isn't held up as a hero or martyr. He is held up as yet another case of police brutality towards people of color. She is missing the mark.

 

[fergieisold]

Because both will result in needless deaths of people from COVID. The government response hasn't been strong enough and the protesters are giving a huge middle finger to the social distancing measures. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Yup, absolutely right. Really disappointing to see Manchester today.

 

[Ødegaard]

Thanks for the apology, no worries.

Sometimes saying all lives matter or similar means just that, all lives matter, without the extra ad ons.. The human race needs equality for men, women, black and white and everything in between.

Maybe today is not the time and place for me to go on about all lives and equality for all, so apologies if insensitive or seen as being insensitive.

You're still a dick though

You still refuse to acknowledge how all lives matter is a counter-protest?
If you understand that and still go on about it then you are simply put racist. If you don't understand it then you need to do more research and reflection.

 

[That'sHernandez]

"Black Lives Matter...but actually only in a certain context and not when it applies to me because I'm going to willfully attend an organised protest that will cause people to catch and die from a virus that disproportionately affects black people"?

Not sure that would fit on a placard.

More important to be seen protesting than actually help the cause you're protesting for, apparently.

wow. Expected better from you, give your head a wobble noodle.

 

[SirAF]

Does't change my take on it.
"he was a bad guy"
He still got murdered by the police. They aren't supposed to execute people. They are supposed to arrest.

He isn't held up as a hero or martyr. He is held up as yet another case of police brutality towards people of color. She is missing the mark.

Exactly. The reaction is not exclusively about Floyd, it’s a reaction against 400 years of cruelty towards black people in the US. Floyd was the famous last straw you can say.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Sometimes saying all lives matter or similar means just that, all lives matter, without the extra ad ons..

Who said they didn't? Why are you trying to interpret the BLM movement as something it's not?

Are you enjoying the attention or are you really this clueless?

 

[SteveJ]

This is a more important thread than it initially appears:

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[P-Ro]

wow. Expected better from you, give your head a wobble noodle.

Why not actually address the post before you dismiss it like that? I'm failing to see what's wrong with what he said.

 

[That'sHernandez]

Why not actually address the post before you dismiss it like that? I'm failing to see what's wrong with what he said.

Because it’s purposely ignoring what the protest is about? I’m not going to bother arguing with a blatantly racist view.