The Athletic ~ Inside United's 6-1 fallout: Half-time rows, Solskjaer backed, transfer regrets

[Rado_N]

I also find it ironic that despite so many fans saying before last season started that they thought we’d finish outside top 4, so many now say that top 4 wasn’t good enough!

It’s almost like there’s more nuance involved than fitting everything into one of two neat boxes.

Shocking, right?

 

[RedDevil@84]

I also find it ironic that despite so many fans saying before last season started that they thought we’d finish outside top 4, so many now say that top 4 wasn’t good enough!

It is as weird as arguing reaching second under Jose shouldn't count.
But I kind of understand the point of wanting to see better football or better progress. The season is not bad because we reached 66pts only. The season did not in the end give us the hope that we will get better and better

 

[Nicoseth]

I’m also OleIN, but I doubt he’ll survive. The sequence of events since positive end to last season has created a toxic environment and false sense of expectations.

He now has the task of dramatically increasing team self belief, fixing his defence and acclimating new signings all during a very difficult set of fixtures.

Pressure may become unbearable by November, especially with fan pressure to appoint Pochettino. my frustration is all that could have been avoided had club for in new signings for the start of the season

Yeah, feel very sorry for him. I think the next month will make or break his season. Positive results and we'll be back on track. Another league defeat or two and we'll see Poch here pronto. Love Ole, hope he succeeds. He's turned it around once already, some would say twice, let's see if he can do it again.

 

[Acquire Me]

He's Guardiola without the talent. Moneybags Ole. Needs the best and most expensive players in Europe to mount a challenge against relegation level teams.

We will see. I am not convinced he is the right one for us, but I am not convinced his not either. Time will tell.

 

[Viral United]

Playing poorly whilst losing games invalidates the argument that only getting 66 points is not good enough? Erm, ok.

I didn't said that and you know it, you are just ignoring the point,

 

[sammsky1]

It’s almost like there’s more nuance involved than fitting everything into one of two neat boxes.

Shocking, right?

Sounds like people who aren’t able to deal or admit they are wrong.

 

[sammsky1]

Yeah, feel very sorry for him. I think the next month will make or break his season. Positive results and we'll be back on track. Another league defeat or two and we'll see Poch here pronto. Love Ole, hope he succeeds. He's turned it around once already, some would say twice, let's see if he can do it again.

Sadly we are stuck with the Glazers and Woodward for the foreseeable future. Just like Edwards and Charlton backed SAF all those years ago because they believed in his vision, it will be a test of the current board to see how much they believe in the ‘reset’ project they are part of and that Ole has authored.

but Ole also has to show some signs of personal growth and appointing some more progressive coaches would be a start.

 

[Mainoldo]

Sadly we are stuck with the Glazers and Woodward for the foreseeable future. Just like Edwards and Charlton backed SAF all those years ago because they believed in his vision, it will be a test of the current board to see how much they believe in the ‘reset’ project they are part of and that Ole has authored.

but Ole also has to show some signs of personal growth and appointing some more progressive coaches would be a start.

How old are you?

 

[Viral United]

Yeah, feel very sorry for him. I think the next month will make or break his season. Positive results and we'll be back on track. Another league defeat or two and we'll see Poch here pronto. Love Ole, hope he succeeds. He's turned it around once already, some would say twice, let's see if he can do it again.

I also want Ole to succeed, but this season its look like something is not right, something is gone massively wrong.
Our performance are not good in any matches, and its look he will sack this season. Its going to very hard to turn around this time.

 

[Rado_N]

I didn't said that and you know it, you are just ignoring the point,

I said 66 points and 18 wins is not good enough.

I then said the football was bad.

You said my second point made my first irrelevant. Connect the dots for me because I’m lost.

 

[Rado_N]

Sounds like people who aren’t able to deal or admit they are wrong.

I should have known better than to expect you to understand nuance.

 

[sammsky1]

How old are you?

17, why?

 

[sammsky1]

I should have known better than to expect you to understand nuance.

Evidently I'm not smart enough.

 

[Mainoldo]

17, why?

I can tell.

 

[Zen86]

Not in the slightest.

You’re not very bright.

 

[Rado_N]

You’re not very bright.

About as good an argument as anything else you’ve put forward so far. Bravo chap.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Of the four managers we’ve hired since Sir Alex — Giggsy was always a caretaker manager — who among them would we say Woodward brought in the best available, based on recent accomplishments?

None of them. We hoped Moyes had the Scot DNA to take his ability to the next level. We hoped LVG could recreate magic from a long time ago. We hoped Mourinho could recreate magic from a long time ago. We hoped that Ole’s United DNA could propel him to the standard we expect of a United manager, admittedly an extremely high bar set by Ferguson.

Since Sir Alex left, we’ve never had a footballing strategy. We’ve lurched from one philosophy to another, making poor buys along the way with a few exceptions like Bruno.

Or the buys were good but the coaching hopeless?

 

[GazTheLegend]

The fact that the team collapsed after the Ole revival and missed out on CL that season and then the club promptly bought the centerback that Mourinho wanted the following season proves that he is vindicated, actually.

But I understand. Mourinho is a touch and sensitive subject around here, so I don't want to talk anymore about him.

"collapsed".
Then got CL.
Finishing ahead of the supposedly superior team that Mourinho is now managing...
There's some serious revisionism going on around Mou. Like - we sold all those players that Mourinho seemed to love, then played better football and finished higher in the league, all while relying on a few teenage players that probably wouldn't have got a game under him in Greenwood, Williams etc.

 

[Viral United]

I said 66 points and 18 wins is not good enough.

I then said the football was bad.

You said my second point made my first irrelevant. Connect the dots for me because I’m lost.

Your first argument is we only get 66 point and its not good enough its completely on state base,
But there are some games where our performance was good enough to win but still we didn't win those games.
So as argument sake I can say we could have got more points.
And that why I said your second argument irrelevant your first one as that was on performance base.

In the end my point was,
Our season objective was reach top 4 and we came 3rd, and it really doesn't matter if we had 66 point or 75 point we still came 3rd,
At end of day we reach our season's target.

Yes at start of season we played bad, But I see improvement in play specially after lock-down.
We also had good wining run. So we do progress in season.
So in general it was satisfactory season. not best one but surly not disaster. And we do feel very positive at end of season.

 

[Zen86]

About as good an argument as anything else you’ve put forward so far. Bravo chap.

Thanks, but I wouldn’t want you to struggle with any more “mental gymnastics” now would I.

 

[Ali Dia]

Surely if 66 points was good enough for 3rd place that would indicate a more difficult league than is common, no? Especially when 17 other teams had a worse record than us. 66 points might well be good enough for 3rd place again this season if early results are anything to go by.

definitely. You need to be way better to beat the fodder now than 10 years ago. Even with city and our levels of investment and it’s far from easy. City have a better squad than us and they look no closer this season. They’ve bought better than us over the years and they are still finding it tough. That in turn just shows how freakishly good Liverpool have been and on a fraction of the investment. It’s a crazy league these days. Even the smallest teams have dangerous players that can punish anyone.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Your first argument is we only get 66 point and its not good enough its completely on state base,
But there are some games where our performance was good enough to win but still we didn't win those games.
So as argument sake I can say we could have got more points.
And that why I said your second argument irrelevant your first one as that was on performance base.

In the end my point was,
Our season objective was reach top 4 and we came 3rd, and it really doesn't matter if we had 66 point or 75 point we still came 3rd,
At end of day we reach our season's target.

Yes at start of season we played bad, But I see improvement in play specially after lock-down.
We also had good wining run. So we do progress in season.
So in general it was satisfactory season. not best one but surly not disaster. And we do feel very positive at end of season.

A lot of the season our performances were not good enough hence we only got 66 points and 18 wins, the position was what was wanted in the end, but it is nowhere near good enough. Top 4 was the target eventually as we failed at vital points of the season and put ourselves in that position.

 

[Andycoleno9]

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This. Needs quicker defender for partner, needs left footed partner, needs to play on the right, on the left, deep, high.....ffs.
For 80 mil we bought someone for whom we need to spend another 200mil on whole new defence. And then maybe, he will be ok.

 

[MrSingh2002]

He's Guardiola without the talent. Moneybags Ole. Needs the best and most expensive players in Europe to mount a challenge against relegation level teams.

Thats the same bullshit that was levelled at Jose. Every manager needs good players. Guardiola is massively overrated. Let's see if he can do a Bielsa with average players and then I'll jump on the bandwagon too.

 

[Viral United]

A lot of the season our performances were not good enough hence we only got 66 points and 18 wins, the position was what was wanted in the end, but it is nowhere near good enough. Top 4 was the target eventually as we failed at vital points of the season and put ourselves in that position.

I didn't understand your point,
Sorry English is not my first language.

 

[Snow]

I assumed as much seeing the headline of the thread. Anyone can be a sports journo these days - especially bc its probably the most gullible audience you ll find amongst all the different topic areas.

There's also so much you can write about. When nothing is happening you stretch minute things into a piece. Footballers having a fit is not news. That happens every week. Bunch of super competitive dudes, most of whom strive for perfection in a testesterone-laden environment will get heads clashing. It's nothing personal and it shows you care.

 

[Redplane]

There's also so much you can write about. When nothing is happening you stretch minute things into a piece. Footballers having a fit is not news. That happens every week. Bunch of super competitive dudes, most of whom strive for perfection in a testesterone-laden environment will get heads clashing. It's nothing personal and it shows you care.

Yup. My boys beat each other over the head multiple times a day - especially during this whole Covid thing- and yet they still have loads of fun and laughs together. That moment between Son and Lloris in the Spurs doc was a good example of that too. Apathy in a way is way worse.

 

[NotThatSoph]

Its all relative when talking about points totals and win %'s though. 66 points being enough for 3rd place suggests a stronger overall league than one where you'd need 80.

It doesn't suggest stronger, it suggests more even. It's pretty obvious that 66 was enough because the top teams were extremely weak, not because the "lesser" teams were unusually strong.

 

[lsd]

This. Needs quicker defender for partner, needs left footed partner, needs to play on the right, on the left, deep, high.....ffs.
For 80 mil we bought someone for whom we need to spend another 200mil on whole new defence. And then maybe, he will be ok.

This is the arguement from Maguire supporters i will never understand. How can you spend that much money on a player who doesn't improve the team unless you spend more than that again on players beside him to cover his faults ?

 

[Cheimoon]

Let's talk hypotheticals. Which is the more successful season to you, finishing 2nd with 60 points or finishing 4th with 80 points?

Talking hypotheticals, I would anyway take 4th with 80 points. There is no way the league gets so strong across the board that no sides can be dominant anymore. So if you get 2nd with 60 points, it means all the top sides (possibly except for the champion, depending on their points total) were crap. That will never last, and it would be very unlikely that 60 points would get you second again the following year. So you would have to put a lot of work into making sure that, next year, you can get about 20 points more, and that might still not get you a title challenge (depending on the total of the champions and the improvements of others).

If you're already at 80, however, you're in a great starting position. It's unlikely that there will be 4 teams with 80+ points each year, so as long as you don't drop off, you're likely to finish higher the following year. And with some improvement (say, 10 points more), you might be mounting a title challenge. In the meantime, you're in the CL anyway as 4th.

 

[NotThatSoph]

Talking hypotheticals, I would anyway take 4th with 80 points. There is no way the league gets so strong across the board that no sides can be dominant anymore. So if you get 2nd with 60 points, it means all the top sides (possibly except for the champion, depending on their points total) were crap. That will never last, and it would be very unlikely that 60 points would get you second again the following year. So you would have to put a lot of work into making sure that, next year, you can get about 20 points more, and that might still not get you a title challenge (depending on the total of the champions and the improvements of others).

If you're already at 80, however, you're in a great starting position. It's unlikely that there will be 4 teams with 80+ points each year, so as long as you don't drop off, you're likely to finish higher the following year. And with some improvement (say, 10 points more), you might be mounting a title challenge. In the meantime, you're in the CL anyway as 4th.

While not as drastic as this, that's basically what happened last season. Point totals 18/19 and 19/20:

• Liverpool improved from 97 to 99. Consistent, but they were probably better than what their total implies in 19/20 because of the way they ended their season.
• City dropped from 97 to 81.
• We stayed at 66.
• Chelsea dropped from 72 to 66.
• Tottenham dropped from 71 to 59.
• Arsenal dropped from 70 to 56.
• Leicester improved from 52 to 62.
• Wolves improved from 57 to 59.

This is top 8 both seasons, though not the same order of course. Chelsea were bad, Arsenal and Tottenham catastrophic, and that gifted us the opportunity of grabbing top 4 in a bad season.

 

[Rolaholic]

Like feck that bitter cnut was, fans had bigger issue than some results.

Yea the revisionism regarding his time I've seen these last few weeks has been gag inducing. Say what you will about our current predicament,it still doesn't touch eve half of the toxicity of those final few months of Jose's tenure. The amount of negativity surrounding the club along with everyone associated with it being completely dejected from the players to the fans won't ever be topped.

Say what you will about Ole's tactical knowhow and management style, I'd never question his intentions regarding the club's performance and aims which is a far cry from his predecessor who was actively and purposely undermining the entire club for selfish aims at the end.

You'd have to have the memory of a goldfish to yearn for more years of present day Mourinho in my eyes regardless of his legitimate complaints regarding our management. LvG shared the same frustrations but went about it by giving his all into trying to help turn things around instead of self sabotage.

 

[redflash]

It's actually 75 million Euros and the clause kicks in after 2021 (according to some other sources in 2022). That is, of course, if no one else wants Haaland by that time. In our current state, with no guaranteed CL spot and far away from challenging for the league title, i doubt he would choose us over the likes of Real Madrid or Bayern Munich (who will be looking for a Lewandowski replacement by then). And we've already played the familiarity card (Solskjaer) when he was much cheaper and he snubbed us by choosing BvB for the next step of his development. Last but not least, BvB are in no hurry to sell him. So, there's that...

As for Sancho, again BvB are not in any hurry to let the player go. His contract expires in 2023 and the Germans can afford to wait until next summer when the market will be more stable and therefore more big clubs will be willing to pay north of 100 million for the player. And between you and me... i would laugh my arse off if the people who paid 80 freaking million for Harry Maguire came to me with 100 million for Sancho. I wouldn't even sit at the table to negotiate any deal that doesn't start at 120 million.

Additionally, why the hell would BvB choose to throw their whole season away by selling their two greatest assets at the same time? Because we asked them to?

In this transfer window, unfortunately, we're talking about way more than 150 million Euros. More likely over 200 million. And there's also Graelish, who is/was a Solskajer target too. Not many people talk about him now because we pulled out of that deal early on when we realized that AV were not going to budge on their asking price and because you have to be a lunatic to believe that Graelish deserves a fee like the one purported.

All in all, i'd say all three were pretty unrealistic targets for this summer. United don't have unlimited funds, the players didn't seem willing to push for a move and their respective clubs were not willing to sell. If Solskajer doesn't want any other players, it's his problem. And believe me, i hold no love for Ed and the Glazers but, in this case, he seems to be the easy target. Quite possibly, we saw the same scene play out last season with Bruno. This also looked like a case of "him or no one". We ended up with Lingard and Pereira getting crucial minutes. When the wheels came off and Solskjaer was hanging by a thread, Woodward didn't sack him but he signed Bruno instead, with the indication (leaked to the press too) that the money for the transfer came from this window's budget. Solskajer saved his job and what does he do? He asks for three new "Brunos" because, as his loyal supports claim, we'll miss out on CL qualification. That's an investment of >200 million on top of 200 million already spent (assuming the players want to come to OT). Close to 400 million in two seasons for what? To avoid finishing outside the CL spots in the worst case scenario and reduce the gap from the top two from 33 points to 15 (that would be us matching Mou's second season) in the best case one? Nah, the manager, his staff and the players must show more things on the pitch.

Good post but I think you miss my point. Those players are exactly who solksjaer should want. The money and the selling parties willingness are less relevant as that is about wether or not this club can get signings over the line.

I.e. 1 or two of them is easily doable for manchester united. All 3 at the same time would be unrealistic.

My point was solkjaer as manager providing a list with those names on is exactly what I would hope for. The fact we haven't delivered any of them is probably more due to covid than anything else.

In a world without covid I think sancho joins us in week 1 of transfer window.

Other two I don't think we get but I would suggest that would change a lot of peoples minds on how the summer went

 

[R'hllor]

Yea the revisionism regarding his time I've seen these last few weeks has been gag inducing. Say what you will about our current predicament,it still doesn't touch eve half of the toxicity of those final few months of Jose's tenure. The amount of negativity surrounding the club along with everyone associated with it being completely dejected from the players to the fans won't ever be topped.

Say what you will about Ole's tactical knowhow and management style, I'd never question his intentions regarding the club's performance and aims which is a far cry from his predecessor who was actively and purposely undermining the entire club for selfish aims at the end.

You'd have to have the memory of a goldfish to yearn for more years of present day Mourinho in my eyes regardless of his legitimate complaints regarding our management. LvG shared the same frustrations but went about it by giving his all into trying to help turn things around instead of self sabotage.

Its not only memory of a goldfish, its also paint of fake washing away from those who are followers of JM, they just w8ing for a moment to pop.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

As for the Maguire Greece incident; what’s his excuse for looking like a statue against Spurs + Bournemouth post-covid last season & man marking his own teammate against Southampton. . .

This isn’t a sudden dip in form.

 

[Gazza]

What a load of crap

As is increasingly the case with the old bean, sadly

 

[Gazza]

Its all relative when talking about points totals and win %'s though. 66 points being enough for 3rd place suggests a stronger overall league than one where you'd need 80.

That's not really true at all though.

 

[Bilbo]

It doesn't suggest stronger, it suggests more even. It's pretty obvious that 66 was enough because the top teams were extremely weak, not because the "lesser" teams were unusually strong.

The top teams were weak because the lesser teams were strong

 

[NotThatSoph]

The top teams were weak because the lesser teams were strong

You think Chelsea, Arsenal and Tottenham performed just as good in 19/20 as in 18/19, but that the lesser teams were stronger thus making them drop a lot more points?

That's... Well, I disagree.

 

[Gazza]

The top teams were weak because the lesser teams were strong

Again, that’s just not really true at all