SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

[Gehrman]

Agreed, that’s a top post from clearly a caring person.

@Hernandez - BFA Can I ask you why you think that morons are saying ‘people are dying of something else but they’re putting Covid on the death certificate’?

My assumption was that Covid is what leads to other prevalent illnesses to become triggered and kill them, is that the case or am I way off?

I think some people(myself included) are confused about how many are dying "with corona" and how many are dying "because of corona". Which is why I appreciate hearing input directly from doctors working with this. In general i've been interested in the overall infection mortality rate. Btw I'm not trying to create a narrative to myself that it's "just the flu bro".

 

[Berbasbullet]

I think some people(myself included) are confused about how many are dying "with corona" and how many are dying "because of corona". Which is why I appreciate hearing input directly from doctors working with this. In general i've been interested in the overall infection mortality rate. Btw I'm not trying to create a narrative to myself that it's "just the flu bro".

Oh yeah 100% that’s kinda what I want to wrap my head around too, mainly because I’m sick of hearing these conspiracy theories and i can feel more confident in having that conversation.

I was under the assumption you don’t really die ‘of corona’ but corona opens the doors for more life threatening and prevalent illnesses to take over, but I’d be interested to hear a professional explain to me like the simpleton I am!

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I think some people(myself included) are confused about how many are dying "with corona" and how many are dying "because of corona". Which is why I appreciate hearing input directly from doctors working with this. In general i've been interested in the overall infection mortality rate. Btw I'm not trying to create a narrative to myself that it's "just the flu bro".

Oh yeah 100% that’s kinda what I want to wrap my head around too, mainly because I’m sick of hearing these conspiracy theories and i can feel more confident in having that conversation.

I was under the assumption you don’t really die ‘of corona’ but corona opens the doors for more life threatening and prevalent illnesses to take over, but I’d be interested to hear a professional explain to me like the simpleton I am!

You can definitely “die of corona” and that’s what’s happening to the vast majority of deaths that show up on the daily stats.

It can get a bit muddy when very old or very unwell people catch the virus. For them the stress of the viral infection can take away their ability to compensate for a long term illness (e.g. chronic heart failure) so they die before their time from an illness that isn’t covid. It’s really just semantics though. They would still be alive if they didn’t catch the virus, even though it’s not the virus that would be considered as the cause of death.

Cause of death is an inexact science anyway. Most deaths don’t get a post mortem, so there’s always some guess work from the doctor’s filling out the form. And it’s definitely possible that some people coincidentally catch covid shortly before their time was up anyway. And the virus doesn’t accelerate that process at all. This will be a minority of cases and is massively exaggerated by idiots on social media with an anti-lockdown agenda.

 

[Eugenius]

Oh yeah 100% that’s kinda what I want to wrap my head around too, mainly because I’m sick of hearing these conspiracy theories and i can feel more confident in having that conversation.

I was under the assumption you don’t really die ‘of corona’ but corona opens the doors for more life threatening and prevalent illnesses to take over, but I’d be interested to hear a professional explain to me like the simpleton I am!

I'm not sure the distinction here makes much of a difference?

I don't have exact stats, but you can see with the huge excess mortality across the world in the first wave that it's killing far more than people who were frail or on their death bed already.

Even a lot of the 'underlying health conditions' include things like diabetes, hypertension etc that aren't going to kill anyone anytime soon and people who were living perfectly normal lives prior to covid.

 

[Berbasbullet]

Thank you both, think you’ve explained it really well.

 

[RedRover]

Yeah it's being 'reviewed' in January with regards to employers contribution %.

Hopefully know what's happening re the vaccine by then with a bit more certainty.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

Now we're all going to die because of some fecking mink(s)? Jesus.

 

[Gehrman]

Now we're all going to die because of some fecking mink(s)? Jesus.

It just a few miles northwest from where I live. If am I not posting in the next few days it's probably because I'm dead.

 

[berbatrick]

I agree - but mostly in the sense that he waited far too long, right? Once he got going, he got it fairly right (if I remember correctly), but at that point, the situation was already too far gone.

it was more than that -
Delayed the lockdown, delayed coordinating supplies, with doctors and nurses going without PPE, forced nuring homes to take patients from overcorwded hospitals, and shielded them from any liability for deaths that happen (and a ton happened as covid spread throughout the homes). Coincidentally he got a donation from nursing homes.

https://www.propublica.org/article/...y-for-covid-patients-prompts-more-controversy
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/26/andrew-cuomo-nursing-home-execs-immunity
https://www.propublica.org/article/...y-10-times-the-number-of-deaths-as-california

Since April he is one of the most popular politicians in the country. Btw, when googling for these links, which I remembered reading in May, few/none of the CNN or NYT articles that showed up carried anything about it. Propublica broke the delay story and David Sirota, a blogger, broke the liability story.

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

Can't wait for this in the UK! Shows what can be done, with the right approach, even without a vaccine

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[Tibs]

Boris speaking at 5pm.

On the Radio they had a gym owner from Manchester on, saying she's stayed open and people coming in for classes. Hopefully she get's a full £10k fine, and then no further help for her business. Fine those attending £100, and then take their financial support away too imo.

Harder and tougher action is now needed against those who break these rules, because in 2-3 weeks we' re in a for a shit storm

 

[Cheimoon]

it was more than that -
Delayed the lockdown, delayed coordinating supplies, with doctors and nurses going without PPE, forced nuring homes to take patients from overcorwded hospitals, and shielded them from any liability for deaths that happen (and a ton happened as covid spread throughout the homes). Coincidentally he got a donation from nursing homes.

https://www.propublica.org/article/...y-for-covid-patients-prompts-more-controversy
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/26/andrew-cuomo-nursing-home-execs-immunity
https://www.propublica.org/article/...y-10-times-the-number-of-deaths-as-california

Since April he is one of the most popular politicians in the country. Btw, when googling for these links, which I remembered reading in May, few/none of the CNN or NYT articles that showed up carried anything about it. Propublica broke the delay story and David Sirota, a blogger, broke the liability story.

I misremembered then!

 

[berbatrick]

I misremembered then!

Ya the only reason I knew these were because Sirota is an ex-Bernie staffer so his work spread a lot on left social media. It simply wasn't well-covered in the mainstream or right-wing media (for the right, it's because Mitch McConnell later copy-pasted the liability bill from Cuomo into a seante proposal).

 

[Pablo76]

I've stayed away from this page and COVID numbers as of late and just cracked on with work.
I had two patients, literally bed-neighbours, die within 2 minutes of each other today. Absolutely terrible. We were trying to help the first one, despite her being on maximal treatment (OptiFlow), and could see the gentleman next to her visibly entering the stages of dying in our eyes. Literally nothing we can do.

It's truly heartbreaking even after all these months. It's draining, and I'm absolutely shattered from those people who still don't take it seriously or those who say that "the government are releasing false numbers" or "ThEy pUt COVID oN the dEaTh cErtiFicAte even though they died of something else".

That is absolutely bollocks. In my 5 years of working as a doctor, I've completed more death certificates in the last 8 months than I have in the first 4 years of working combined - and not once have I put the words of COVID down unless that's the thing that's killed them.

I'm dreading the winter pressures already - our hospital is already beyond full capacity and the daily recording released the information that we have 102 COVID patients admitted at present. Granted, a certain percentage are asymptomatic who happen to have it along with another issue - but I'll tell you what - I'd love to see one of those patients round about now because I don't see them.

I completely understand that from a non-medical point of view, this is infuriating/terrible in a different manner to mine. Some people can't even work because of this. I couldn't imagine not working during the last few months. Staying at home with feck all to do for weeks intermittently sounds very shit.

Unfortunately, until a vaccine comes, people are going to have to accept this as a way of living for the time being.
Seeing a 50 and 60 odd year old dying today - with barely a medical co-morbidity to their name - is a daily reminder that it isn't a poxy virus.
I'm scared shitless for my parents. I don't want to see them just in case I manage to bring it to them on a strand of my hair.

Unfortunately though, it definitely is happening and I’d actually be surprised if you really haven’t seen it yourself.

 

[Cheimoon]

Ya the only reason I knew these were because Sirota is an ex-Bernie staffer so his work spread a lot on left social media. It simply wasn't well-covered in the mainstream or right-wing media (for the right, it's because Mitch McConnell later copy-pasted the liability bill from Cuomo into a seante proposal).

Yeah, it might also be the case that I did not so much misremember, but just never got the complete picture of what happened in NY state. I read some criticism of Cuomo, but that was more about he slow he was to take this sufficiently seriously and get going; not on what still went wrong when he did take his measures. For that period, what I read was more about perceptions of his public persona.

 

[Hernandez - BFA]

Agreed, that’s a top post from clearly a caring person.

@Hernandez - BFA Can I ask you why you think that morons are saying ‘people are dying of something else but they’re putting Covid on the death certificate’?

My assumption was that Covid is what leads to other prevalent illnesses to become triggered and kill them, is that the case or am I way off?

I think some people(myself included) are confused about how many are dying "with corona" and how many are dying "because of corona". Which is why I appreciate hearing input directly from doctors working with this. In general i've been interested in the overall infection mortality rate. Btw I'm not trying to create a narrative to myself that it's "just the flu bro".

So the way death certificates work is that it's split into:
Part 1 - A), B) C) - A seems to be the main thing that kills someone, and then B) and C) are the medical issues that likely lead to 1A.
Part 2 - Other co-morbidities that the patient had but may not have directly contributed to that person's death.

Now when it comes to this topic, the thing I read the most is that "the government" or "the NHS" just puts Cornavirus-19 down on the death certificate even if they never died from it.

I think a good example is today where, once again, I had another woman pass away today. She became COVID positive on the very start of the month, and unfortunately picked up a bacterial pneumonia on top - given her weakened immune system. After 4 days, she passed away today. When it'll come to me doing her death certificate tomorrow, there's scope to say that 1A would be the Hospital-Acquired Pneumonia, and then 1B would be Coronavirus-19. I could quite easily put Coronavirus-19 down as Part A because quite frankly, she was doing so poorly with it in the first place that it's likely she was going to pass away from it sadly. The bacterial infection just seemed to catalyse everything.

Whether I put it as 1A or 1B is actually moot - at the end of the day, from what I see clinically, COVID-19 has killed this lady unfortunately.
Whether I put it as 1A or 1B, I don't think it should raise any controversy whether the government uses it as a figure towards the number of deaths - because it 100% played the major part in the death of this lady.

Now I keep hearing that people put COVID-19 down even if they were asymptomatic with it, or that they had it and had mild symptoms but was hit by a falling seagull from the air so "we have to put COVID down on the death certificate".
Of course the example I've used is preposterous but my point stands.

I've had patients that are asymptomatic from COVID, but have died from a brain bleed - but I have not put down COVID at all down on the death certificate because they aren't linked at all.
I have also never put COVID down on a death certificate "because they've had it at some stage in the last 28 days" and died. I've had a couple of patients die of a bog-standard bacterial pneumonia but had COVID (asymptomatic) almost a month prior - but I have not put COVID down on the death certificate because all the other tests pointed at it being a bacterial cause or an aspiration cause rather than viral COVID pneumonitis.

Long, lengthy post so I do apologise but I just thought I'd share what they bang on about when it comes to death certificates. I didn't want to bring more common presentations because naturally some have lost members of family through non-COVID conditions during the last few months and I think people do forget that. Medicine has continued despite COVID and we still deaths that are fully unrelated to COVID.

Unfortunately though, it definitely is happening and I’d actually be surprised if you really haven’t seen it yourself.

Fine, I can't speak for all doctors/hospitals. That is 100% true and maybe I shouldn't put a blanket statement like I said. But I've worked in two hospitals during the COVID pandemic, and from my experience in both, COVID has only ever been put on the death certificate only if it's played a massive contribution towards the death - and the vast, vast, vast majority - COVID is 1A. I am working on the Respiratory COVID ward, so granted we get the sickest COVIDs in the hospital before they are deemed to require intubation in ITU - so naturally I am going to see more deaths that are full barn-door COVID. But I also help the more junior members of the team on the non-COVID Respiratory ward - and work on calls where I see a whole concoction of presentations who may die on admission. In my current hospital, there's guidance for us to say to only put down COVID if its played a role in their deaths. I can safely say that I'm part of the cohort in my hospital who have seen more COVID in the last few months than anyone else in the hospital - which unfortunately means I've done a fair few death certificates so I feel I can hold a fairly valid opinion on this whole death certificates debacle.

 

[B20]

Now we're all going to die because of some fecking mink(s)? Jesus.

It just a few miles northwest from where I live. If am I not posting in the next few days it's probably because I'm dead.

With the lockdown that just happened because of the cluster-5 mink corona, we'll probably never hear from Shamana again.

 

[Berbasbullet]

So the way death certificates work is that it's split into:
Part 1 - A), B) C) - A seems to be the main thing that kills someone, and then B) and C) are the medical issues that likely lead to 1A.
Part 2 - Other co-morbidities that the patient had but may not have directly contributed to that person's death.

Now when it comes to this topic, the thing I read the most is that "the government" or "the NHS" just puts Cornavirus-19 down on the death certificate even if they never died from it.

I think a good example is today where, once again, I had another woman pass away today. She became COVID positive on the very start of the month, and unfortunately picked up a bacterial pneumonia on top - given her weakened immune system. After 4 days, she passed away today. When it'll come to me doing her death certificate tomorrow, there's scope to say that 1A would be the Hospital-Acquired Pneumonia, and then 1B would be Coronavirus-19. I could quite easily put Coronavirus-19 down as Part A because quite frankly, she was doing so poorly with it in the first place that it's likely she was going to pass away from it sadly. The bacterial infection just seemed to catalyse everything.

Whether I put it as 1A or 1B is actually moot - at the end of the day, from what I see clinically, COVID-19 has killed this lady unfortunately.
Whether I put it as 1A or 1B, I don't think it should raise any controversy whether the government uses it as a figure towards the number of deaths - because it 100% played the major part in the death of this lady.

Now I keep hearing that people put COVID-19 down even if they were asymptomatic with it, or that they had it and had mild symptoms but was hit by a falling seagull from the air so "we have to put COVID down on the death certificate".
Of course the example I've used is preposterous but my point stands.

I've had patients that are asymptomatic from COVID, but have died from a brain bleed - but I have not put down COVID at all down on the death certificate because they aren't linked at all.
I have also never put COVID down on a death certificate "because they've had it at some stage in the last 28 days" and died. I've had a couple of patients die of a bog-standard bacterial pneumonia but had COVID (asymptomatic) almost a month prior - but I have not put COVID down on the death certificate because all the other tests pointed at it being a bacterial cause or an aspiration cause rather than viral COVID pneumonitis.

Long, lengthy post so I do apologise but I just thought I'd share what they bang on about when it comes to death certificates. I didn't want to bring more common presentations because naturally some have lost members of family through non-COVID conditions during the last few months and I think people do forget that. Medicine has continued despite COVID and we still deaths that are fully unrelated to COVID.



Fine, I can't speak for all doctors/hospitals. That is 100% true and maybe I shouldn't put a blanket statement like I said. But I've worked in two hospitals during the COVID pandemic, and from my experience in both, COVID has only ever been put on the death certificate only if it's played a massive contribution towards the death - and the vast, vast, vast majority - COVID is 1A. I am working on the Respiratory COVID ward, so granted we get the sickest COVIDs in the hospital before they are deemed to require intubation in ITU - so naturally I am going to see more deaths that are full barn-door COVID. But I also help the more junior members of the team on the non-COVID Respiratory ward - and work on calls where I see a whole concoction of presentations who may die on admission. In my current hospital, there's guidance for us to say to only put down COVID if its played a role in their deaths. I can safely say that I'm part of the cohort in my hospital who have seen more COVID in the last few months than anyone else in the hospital - which unfortunately means I've done a fair few death certificates so I feel I can hold a fairly valid opinion on this whole death certificates debacle.

Thank you so much for this, really appreciate the time and effort, and you kind of confirmed what I suspected and eloquently described what I was trying to say clumsily.

Thanks again and I hope things get better for you and your work soon.

One thing I’d like to ask, why do people think that doctors are writing Covid 19 on death certificates for people who have say died in a car crash? Is it just rubbish perpetuated by twitter?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Thank you so much for this, really appreciate the time and effort, and you kind of confirmed what I suspected and eloquently described what I was trying to say clumsily.

Thanks again and I hope things get better for you and your work soon.

One thing I’d like to ask, why do people think that doctors are writing Covid 19 on death certificates for people who have say died in a car crash? Is it just rubbish perpetuated by twitter?

Answered your own question there.

 

[Wibble]

High failure rate from rapid covid test

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-of-cases-in-pilot?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

 

[groovyalbert]

Boris speaking at 5pm.

On the Radio they had a gym owner from Manchester on, saying she's stayed open and people coming in for classes. Hopefully she get's a full £10k fine, and then no further help for her business. Fine those attending £100, and then take their financial support away too imo.

Harder and tougher action is now needed against those who break these rules, because in 2-3 weeks we' re in a for a shit storm

Jesus. Why not just kill them now so they can't ever catch or spread the virus!?

 

[fergies coat]

Boris speaking at 5pm.

On the Radio they had a gym owner from Manchester on, saying she's stayed open and people coming in for classes. Hopefully she get's a full £10k fine, and then no further help for her business. Fine those attending £100, and then take their financial support away too imo.

Harder and tougher action is now needed against those who break these rules, because in 2-3 weeks we' re in a for a shit storm

If your fit and healthy you'll be ok, so lets close all the gym's and keep McDonald's open. Makes sense doesn't it?

 

[Tony Babangida]

High failure rate from rapid covid test

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-of-cases-in-pilot?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

I’ve done some work on that test. I’m slightly surprised their sensitivity was as low as 50%. I’ve used it with swabs and sensitivity has been >80%. Maybe it’s the saliva. LAMP does have quite a few drawbacks, but it is quick. Plenty of other rapid tests for them to try. Even good old RTqPCR can be fairly rapid (~45min) if optimised further.

Headline of the article annoys me. It might as well read “operation moonshot is stupid, the tories are wasting money.” The stuff in the article is a routine evaluation that has ruled something out.

 

[Hernandez - BFA]

Thank you so much for this, really appreciate the time and effort, and you kind of confirmed what I suspected and eloquently described what I was trying to say clumsily.

Thanks again and I hope things get better for you and your work soon.

One thing I’d like to ask, why do people think that doctors are writing Covid 19 on death certificates for people who have say died in a car crash? Is it just rubbish perpetuated by twitter?

It's all good!
In terms of the question - I've read a huge amount of shit on social media from people who are, quite frankly, absolute fecking idiots. I can't say for 100000% certain that no one has ever done that, but I'd be astonished if that has ever happened anywhere. It sounds like the classic Covidiot who run the parade of it not being a real thing or that it's being blown well out of proportion etc etc. This sounds like some of that shit.

 

[Wumminator]

If your fit and healthy you'll be ok, so lets close all the gym's and keep McDonald's open. Makes sense doesn't it?

Yes, that literally does make sense as if we closed takeaways we would cripple a massive part of the economy.

 

[fergieisold]

Boris speaking at 5pm.

On the Radio they had a gym owner from Manchester on, saying she's stayed open and people coming in for classes. Hopefully she get's a full £10k fine, and then no further help for her business. Fine those attending £100, and then take their financial support away too imo.

Harder and tougher action is now needed against those who break these rules, because in 2-3 weeks we' re in a for a shit storm

meh, gyms haven’t been a massive problem though. Have you ever visited one?

 

[fergies coat]

Yes, that literally does make sense as if we closed takeaways we would cripple a massive part of the economy.

So stay at home and eat a takeaway, then when we are back out of lockdown we'll be more unhealthy than when we went in it. Big chain corporation's get richer and the working class gets poorer. Gyms are much cleaner than a supermarket.

 

[Wumminator]

So stay at home and eat a takeaway, then when then when we are back out of lockdown we'll be more unhealthy than when we went in it. Big chain corporation's get richer and the working class gets poorer.

Surely there are more big chains working in the gym industry than there is in the takeaway industry?

 

[Sarni]

actually think 2021 will be worse then 2020, can only see things getting worse, any vaccine is really just going to be a massive gamble as wont have been able to be tested properly.

Vaccine will be fine but it won’t come for a while and when it does, distribution will be difficult. How many people can realistically get it per month, 10 million?

It will be worse because people won’t treat restrictions as seriously with every lockdown that follows. Trend here is that most neglect the danger or don’t think the virus exists at all, it will get worse and worse with each wave for all those except the ones who will either suffer themselves or have someone in their family suffer/die.

Also it appears we are getting quite a few reinfections which puts the immunity argument in question.

 

[Wibble]

Headline of the article annoys me. It might as well read “operation moonshot is stupid, the tories are wasting money.” The stuff in the article is a routine evaluation that has ruled something out.

I wonder why such a different?

Easy to assume it is more of the incompetent shot show I guess.

 

[Sarni]

Thank you so much for this, really appreciate the time and effort, and you kind of confirmed what I suspected and eloquently described what I was trying to say clumsily.

Thanks again and I hope things get better for you and your work soon.

One thing I’d like to ask, why do people think that doctors are writing Covid 19 on death certificates for people who have say died in a car crash? Is it just rubbish perpetuated by twitter?

I have heard that numerous times here as well and it’s always one of few similar stories. Obviously nonsense. If there was any agenda to put covid in death certificate then the last three weeks we’ve been getting 5k excess deaths per week (7.5k jumping to 12.5k, huge spike) and only less than 1k of them were in covid statistics. If doctors ‘get paid extra money for putting covid in death certificate’ then we have a lot of dumb doctors who haven’t seized a brilliant opportunity to do that with all the extra bodies.

 

[Pablo76]

@Hernandez - BFA

Out of interest, are you working within the NHS in the UK?

I know somebody very close to me who has been working as a nurse on the front line, in one of the biggest hospitals in the UK, since this kicked off, and without hesitation she tells me it definitely happens.

 

[Andy_Cole]

Think I’ve got it. Realised an hour ago when my dominos tasted bland. Also think my smell has gone faint too.

Isolated since. Test in the morning.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

@Hernandez - BFA

Out of interest, are you working within the NHS in the UK?

I know somebody very close to me who has been working as a nurse on the front line, in one of the biggest hospitals in the UK, since this kicked off, and without hesitation she tells me it definitely happens.

Nurses aren’t allowed to sign death certs, so I’d take the opinion of someone who actually completes and signs death certs over someone who happens to work in the same place as them.

 

[711]

@Hernandez - BFA

Out of interest, are you working within the NHS in the UK?

I know somebody very close to me who has been working as a nurse on the front line, in one of the biggest hospitals in the UK, since this kicked off, and without hesitation she tells me it definitely happens.

I take it you have asked her why the doctors she knows are putting lies on their death certificates, what did she say?

 

[Pablo76]

Nurses aren’t allowed to sign death certs, so I’d take the opinion of someone who actually completes and signs death certs over someone who happens to work in the same place as them.

And the doctors, with respect for what they do do, aren’t the ones on the very front line caring for these people and seeing them die and have Covid put on their death certificates when they were only ever classed as “query Covid” at worst.

 

[Andy_Cole]

Thank you so much for this, really appreciate the time and effort, and you kind of confirmed what I suspected and eloquently described what I was trying to say clumsily.

Thanks again and I hope things get better for you and your work soon.

One thing I’d like to ask, why do people think that doctors are writing Covid 19 on death certificates for people who have say died in a car crash? Is it just rubbish perpetuated by twitter?

Easy paperwork is what I’ve heard. Especially in care homes.

 

[Pablo76]

I take it you have asked her why the doctors she knows are putting lies on their death certificates, what did she say?

I guess it’s a contentious point, but it’s hardly news.

23 years ago my then father in law had an epileptic fit in his sleep and died, yet alcohol poisoning was put on his death certificate because he’d had a drink that lunch time.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

And the doctors, with respect for what they do do, aren’t the ones on the very front line caring for these people and seeing them die and have Covid put on their death certificates when they were only ever classed as “query Covid” at worst.

There’s not a doctor working in the NHS who would put covid on a death cert without a postive test confirming the diagnosis so that bit in bold is pure fiction.

Maybe ask your nurse friend why she thinks doctors are lying on legal documents that they could get struck off for falsifying? What’s in it for them?

 

[Pablo76]

Easy paperwork is what I’ve heard. Especially in care homes.

I honestly don’t know enough about it, but from working in care myself over the last year or so, I’ve heard this also.