The frictions are a byproduct of not being in the EUCU, the point of the EUCU was to get rid of such frictions.
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The frictions are a byproduct of not being in the EUCU, the point of the EUCU was to get rid of such frictions.
I did clarify this. I’m not blaming anyone, in fact I’m advocating that we move on from this, as there’s really no point in debating the rights and wrongs of a decision made 4.5 years ago. and I wasn’t talking about the decision to leave, but the negotiating teams - and I stand by the fact that this current mess is due both sides taking it to the wire. hopefully it’s just teething issues.
I wasn’t making any comment on our future relationship.
you have forms not completing paperwork, or the wrong paperwork etc. That will improve.
Not if you live in these areas its what you see every time you visit the high street/town centre. Telling people their views are parochial may be correct but it doesn't endear them to your perspective, as Gordon Brown found out in Rochdale. Lot of mistakes were made by Remainers as well as lies and half truths from Brexiteers, which contributed to the vote going the way it did.
I have said on a number of occasions on this medium that I feel that Theresa May's inability to get the WA vote through parliament should have been ceased upon as a life line to 'correct' views on Brexit, by withdrawing A50, giving breathing space and having a rethink; but both sides 'hunkered down' stuck to their stories and the rest is history.
I'm sure he's got me on ignore, maybe you as well , he's not listening.
Edit: lucky you
The Remain campaign didn't lie enough. Although if you asked me to name any Remain campaigners I would struggle.
The point is these frictions were not unexpected. They were guaranteed to come into play when we decided to leave the customs union. That isn't about poor implementation, it's a direct consequence of the withdrawal. Pointing that out isn't failing to move on, it's reiterating a point that was made from the beginning: this is going to happen, it's going to create problems, and the people that support Brexit are sticking their fingers in their ears and pretending it won't happen. It is not about blame, it is about accountability. People need to fully understand what they voted for and why these are the consequences. It would have been better if that happened earlier but it still needs to happen now. Choosing not to see the problems and just hoping they will disappear on their own creates more problems.
fecking hell. I’m fed up of political discourse in the country and the world being
group a: please don’t do something incredibly stupid
Group b: we are doing it and it’s not stupid.
*something stupid happens*
Group b: we need to move on and make the best of this, please group a stop causing friction. There’s absolutely nothing we could have done.
group a: please don’t do something incredibly stupid
Group b: we are doing it and it’s not stupid.
*something stupid happens*
Group b: we need to move on and make the best of this, please group a stop causing friction. There’s absolutely nothing we could have done.
I'm not following your point. The friction is based on the added bureaucracy, the added costs linked to that bureaucracy and the fact that certain goods will now be checked when they cross borders. Those frictions are going nowhere outside of a custom agreement and that applies to everyone not just the UK, the UK is now a third country.
My point is that they voted this way partly thinking their lives can't possibly get any worse. Their lives can very demonstrably get worse. Not quite in the remainer fantasy where the UK crashes and burns. But little things. Their weekly food shop becomes more expensive. Their time in between jobs becomes longer. Their benefits no longer covers as much as it used to. Their one holiday they went on every year/ few years now becomes much more expensive/ impossible. More shops will close on their high street.
I agree with your second paragraph in a way and I remember wondering and saying during those votes whether remainers would, in failing to support a lighter deal, contribute to leading us down the road to a much harsher deal.
The 'other side' were never ever going to agree to withdrawing A50 or to have a rethink. For so many of their most fervent proponents, even the mention of a 2nd referendum was akin to treason and they and the media had whipped the population up into believing their rhetoric. Some of these people had dedicated their entire political lives to this moment, they weren't going to give it up easily.
By that point, it was all about 'get brexit done', not any kind of nuanced discussion on our future relationship with our biggest trading partners and a group of countries that should include amongst them our very closest friends.
there are two issues here, and perhaps the use of the work friction has muddied the waters.
clearly there are going to be issues at the beginning of this relationship that will flush themselves out as everyone moves on, adjusts to new processes and procedures. Some of that is what we are seeing now, this won’t go on in perpetuity.
and yes we do need to move on and stop using rhetoric such as consequences.
the reality is that there is a big percentage of the population who will never be able to evaluate the merits of the referendum. That’s not to say we shouldn’t have had a vote, in the same way that there’s a % of people who don’t understand politics full stop. Yet they vote, and will never be aware of the ‘consequences’.
actually what we need to be doing is to work out the best way forward, and stop looking back.
if that’s aimed at me, should we just sit around analysing old decisions and what went wrong/right? There’s an element of needing to do that of course, but it shouldn’t be the main focus.
Allowing people to have no accountability for their choices inevitably leads to worse choices in the future. Extra accountability for extra important decisions is entirely appropriate. Being forced to reckon with mistakes you've made is unpleasant, but it is necessary and it is constructive.
Who is sitting about analysing old decisions?
There were a huge number of mistakes made. And more concerning an even bigger number of downright lies and illegalities by the leave side.
But those are now history. And no one forced gullible people to vote the way they did.
And now it is important that the numerous issues resulting from the vote play themselves out in the public domain such that we are all forced to deal with them openly and obviously.
There is no going back so enjoy the ride.
@ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg
I think you need to add a few lines on what you actually believe.
If your position is “Everything is now harder, more time consuming and thus more expensive, and it will be this way forever”. Say so.
Because it feels like your saying that using every available phrasing aside from something that simple.
I think you need to add a few lines on what you actually believe.
If your position is “Everything is now harder, more time consuming and thus more expensive, and it will be this way forever”. Say so.
Because it feels like your saying that using every available phrasing aside from something that simple.
Agree you can't change the past but what should be learnt is lessons of the mistakes of the past. Trump and Brexit are examples of not learning from the mistakes.
Now the consequences, they have to be dealt with, very few of the consequences have even started and people are already talking about things getting better quickly.
People have to be accountable, the Leave campaigners must not get away with it and Trump should not escape punishment.
In a democracy, the punishment is ultimately served at the ballot box. We need to vote these feckers out.
The average Joe is not knowledgeable enough to judge what a clusterfeck this is. My landlord was asking me how difficult can filling some forms be?
In the case of Brexit though, it was a choice between the party that supported Brexit and the other party that supported Brexit. It works when there is real opposition.
Ok. I’ve tried to be clear. Clearly I haven’t.
I don’t know what the future will be like - it is likely we won’t find some sort of equilibrium until 2022, there’s just too much uncertainty at the moment. Both in terms of trade/ political relationships but also Covid. Will it be more difficult? Probably, but that could be only marginally so.
however, I do believe what we are experiencing is because we are all getting used to how things are working/ not working and that it will calm down. Implementation of new processes and procedures always takes time, lots of firms don’t know what they are doing, and change processes are notoriously difficult to manage, and everyone is trying to do so at the same time with very little guidance, direction or expertise.
What was your answer? Did he consider the time consumed between not having to fill them and having to do it thousands of times per year and then adding the fact that they will/can be checked.
Very much so.
But in a very perverse way, most all of the emerging problems in the UK are going to be dwarfed by the pandemic. And the pandemic is going to dominate the public consciousness for some time to come.
Nothing would give me more pleasure than to see those responsible held to account.
But as is normal, they will get away with it and the poorest will be the biggest loser's.
100%
The thing is if I'm not mistaken the pandemic reduced consumption and trades. Things could actually be worse if everything goes back to what it was a few years ago, more demand, more trucks, more ferries; more delays at customs, more people not having the papers they are supposed to have.
I'm not talking about the decisions made 4-5 years ago. I'm talking about the line taken by both sides of the negotiations 2 weeks ago. One side wanted a close relationship even days before the trade agreement was signed while the other wanted a hard exit. Both side are not equally responsible for the position we are in.
I didn’t say anything about apportioning responsibility. Let’s roll this back. My original point is that it’s futile to blame the electorate.
yes, each side has a responsibility for the current situation we are in. Again it’s futile to try and apportion this - especially when doing so just reflects ones beliefs.
Nailed it.
Yep, and in a few months Group B start saying "it was always this difficult to do things before we did the stupid thing" followed soon after with "we never did the stupid thing, it was Group A who did it".
Not doubting that.
I was responding to a post calling for accountibility, which I agree with. Covid is and will be the dominant narrative for a few months at least.
I wasn't blaming the electorate. I've done that in the past and we have moved past that but I am apportioning blame on the negotiating teams and I agree this does reflect our beliefs.
It's already started two posts above your post. Apparently it was the EU who was just as much to blame for the UK leaving the Customs Union.
One side has responsibility - the one who forced through a huge upheaval on the basis of a wafer thin majority based on lies and ignorance. And your earlier post about blame being assigned to those who implemented the referendum suggests that, even after 5 years, you have yet to grasp that there was no good implementation of the referendum result - it was a graph with a 45 degee angle line marking reducing regulatory alignment on the y axis and economic damage on the x axis..
you have failed to grasp that I have moved on.
of course there could have been a better implementation of the referendum. I don’t understand your point unless it’s “told you so - it was going to be bad...” which is the sort of binary commentary which serves no purpose.
I’m over it too - we’ve left and I doubt we’ll re-join - but my point is that it was a binary choice as the EU27 are 10 times bigger than the UK and were determined to preserve the principle of the unity of the four freedoms. Given the range of realistic outcomes (so no Liam Fox “easiest deal in history” scenarios) what was a good implementation - some kind of Norway arrangement or a full break? Because I fail to see some magic middle ground - either we keep access (as a rule taker) or go our own way (with all the attendant obstacles to trade).
what I meant by implementation, was the actual implementation of the deal. It’s clear that could have been far better, and better timed.
at this point, we don’t know the real stances of both sides. I’m sure we will see in 30 years more of the truth come out.
whether the likes of Fox misjudged the outcome, or was just politically posturing I don’t know. But that’s a different discussion.
The later wouldn't be an issue if there hadn't been people voting for self harm in the first place.
People who voted for it should be forced to wear a badge or something so we know who they are. If nothing else so we can stop them breeding/voting/playing with sharp objects.
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He still has not understood that the process of customs checks and bureaucracy is not related to the trade deal that was agreed recently, its was because of the Withdrawal Agreement confirming that the UK was unilaterally leaving the Customs Union and that is not going to change. Not some last minute scramble over the line but an agreement that took three and a half years to agree and was finalised nearly a year ago.
Hands up anyone who understands this in the UK.
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