The Breakup of the EU

I think polls after the Brexit referendum showed that overall positive attitutes towards the EU within its countries had gone up, so the premise of "Big state leaving = automatically means weakening" is not really true.

If I`m in a group project and one person leaves that project it doesn`t necessarily mean that the projects premise is suffering. Maybe that one person was the biggest wanker there is and the rest of the group will work better together once he`s gone. (Before people are up in arms: No I`m not equating the UK as being a wanker because I don`t think it is correct to characterize a whole nation state)
 
led_scholes said:
Well for start Farage is a non European Union Citizen, or to be more precise is going to be a non European Union Citizen. However, I can assume that up until recently you can claim that he was part of the European elites, as a member of the British Elite. Again, the elites do not have to agree all time. It is not like they are a weird secret society. And no, you cant name all the elites, well because there are the german, the french, the polish, the slovenian and so on and you will need barrels of tea before you can name them all. You can start on reading some theory on the elites, starting from Weber if you want, so you can get some theoritical background.
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Yes, I can claim that because he was, and him not being part of that specific clique anymore doesn't suddenly make him not an elite.

Why do situations/arguments like this always require going away and reading something. Can't you explain it yourself?
 
led_scholes said:
Well for start Farage is a non European Union Citizen, or to be more precise is going to be a non European Union Citizen. However, I can assume that up until recently you can claim that he was part of the European elites, as a member of the British Elite. Again, the elites do not have to agree all time. It is not like they are a weird secret society. And no, you cant name all the elites, well because there are the german, the french, the polish, the slovenian and so on and you will need barrels of tea before you can name them all. You can start on reading some theory on the elites, starting from Weber if you want, so you can get some theoritical background.
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Settle down now, Farage is one of us with his German passport. :D
 
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If we step back before the referendum, it was a big own goal that EU didn’t take the UK seriously, and wouldn’t negotiate with Cameron about reforming the relationship between the UK and the EU.

It doesn’t mean the EU is a failure, but it’s a massive failing that the UK has left.
 
unchanged_lineup said:
Yes, I can claim that because he was, and him not being part of that specific clique anymore doesn't suddenly make him not an elite.

Why do situations/arguments like this always require going away and reading something. Can't you explain it yourself?
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Well, now he is more closely related only to the UK elite, not the EU though, thats why I would probalby not mention Farage in a post about the European Elites. I wrote in a previous post who, , or rather what type of people, I consider elites in Europe and under what terms. Now, if you want me to provide a list of names with the european elites, again I will dissapoint you because I do not know the elites of all the european countries. And again, If you want me to write an academic report of 5000 words about the European Elites in a football forum, I am afraid I will dissapoint. For this reason, in case you are intrigued about the political theory of the elites I suggested a classic book.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
If we step back before the referendum, it was a big own goal that EU didn’t take the UK seriously, and wouldn’t negotiate with Cameron about reforming the relationship between the UK and the EU.

It doesn’t mean the EU is a failure, but it’s a massive failing that the UK has left.
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They did negotiate, but it seems that from the UK negotiating is supposed to be synonymous with agreeing with british demands.
 
led_scholes said:
Well, now he is more closely related only to the UK elite, not the EU though, thats why I would probalby not mention Farage in a post about the European Elites. I wrote in a previous post who, , or rather what type of people, I consider elites in Europe and under what terms. Now, if you want me to provide a list of names with the european elites, again I will dissapoint you because I do not know the elites of all the european countries. And again, If you want me to write an academic report of 5000 words about the European Elites in a football forum, I am afraid I will dissapoint. For this reason, in case you are intrigued about the political theory of the elites I suggested a classic book.
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Give me just a couple of names.

An elite is an elite, especially if they've gotten fat off an MEP's salary and benefits.

Give me the gist of the classic book. That's what we're doing here. Discussing.
 
JPRouve said:
They did negotiate, but it seems that from the UK negotiating is supposed to be synonymous with agreeing with british demands.
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they negotiated, and the result was close to zero proposed change. They didn’t take it seriously - I’m not interested in a blame game.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
they negotiated, and the result was close to zero proposed change. They didn’t take it seriously - I’m not interested in a blame game.
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And yet that's exactly what you did. Here you have what was asked and changed in 2016.

But here is the key point that is missed on people like you, when Cameron goes to the council and tries to get something that he wants, he is talking to +20 other countries that have their own opinion on how they want the EU to work, they have as much right to defend their point of view as Cameron and the UK have. If Cameron and the UK can't convince a majority of member states then there is only two options they accept the decision of the majority or they leave the Union.

So to be perfectly clear the member states took Cameron seriously, they simply didn't agree with some of his propositions.
 
unchanged_lineup said:
Give me just a couple of names.

An elite is an elite, especially if they've gotten fat off an MEP's salary and benefits.

Give me the gist of the classic book. That's what we're doing here. Discussing.
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Macron, Merkel, Mitsotakis, Mondi, Agnelli, Trichet, Draghi, Klatten.
Now, give me just a couple of names.
 
led_scholes said:
Macron, Merkel, Mitsotakis, Mondi, Agnelli, Trichet, Draghi, Klatten.
Now, give me just a couple of names.
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What names do you want? And what makes these people elites exactly? Looks like you've quite a few elected officials there who can be equally unelected in the future. Will they be elites still when they have no mandate or power?
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
If we step back before the referendum, it was a big own goal that EU didn’t take the UK seriously, and wouldn’t negotiate with Cameron about reforming the relationship between the UK and the EU.

It doesn’t mean the EU is a failure, but it’s a massive failing that the UK has left.
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I assume neither the EU nor Cameron himself ever believed there was a serious risk of Leave winning the referendum. As such, I doubt either side thought there was so much riding on those negotiations. But, yes, to end up in a situation where the UK leaves is a failure on the EU’s part as well even though by far the biggest share of the blame is largely attributable to factors specific to the UK (particularly the poisonous media spewing out anti-EU propaganda and the FPTP system giving disproportionate influence to cranks on the far right of the Conservative Party).
 
unchanged_lineup said:
What names do you want? And what makes these people elites exactly? Looks like you've quite a few elected officials there who can be equally unelected in the future. Will they be elites still when they have no mandate or power?
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Whatever you consider an elite, like Farage.
Yes they will still be. Mondi didn't even have to be elected to have mandate. Mitsotakis had a grand-grand father as a MP, grandfather too, his father was also a prime minister and he has other relatives in positions with power in business and in politics, like his sister who was mayor of Athens from 2004 till 2008, and now his nephew is the mayor of Athens.
 
JPRouve said:
And yet that's exactly what you did. Here you have what was asked and changed in 2016.

But here is the key point that is missed on people like you, when Cameron goes to the council and tries to get something that he wants, he is talking to +20 other countries that have their own opinion on how they want the EU to work, they have as much right to defend their point of view as Cameron and the UK have. If Cameron and the UK can't convince a majority of member states then there is only two options they accept the decision of the majority or they leave the Union.

So to be perfectly clear the member states took Cameron seriously, they simply didn't agree with some of his propositions.
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people like me! Not reading any further after that. :lol:
 
JPRouve said:
People that have the same view of the situation up until the referendum. Is that an incorrect categorization?
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any categorisation is incorrect. It’s still the problem that too many people are trying to look at this through a binary viewpoint, and I’m sick of it.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
any categorisation is incorrect. It’s still the problem that too many people are trying to look at this through a binary viewpoint, and I’m sick of it.
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You weren't sick of binary viewpoints when you made it a EU vs UK when it was a negotiation between member states. And what I wrote isn't binary, I put you with people that have the same opinion and explained why you are collectively wrong to have that opinion, now if you are offended by that, I offer you my apologies.
 
JPRouve said:
You weren't sick of binary viewpoints when you made it a EU vs UK when it was a negotiation between member states. And what I wrote isn't binary, I put you with people that have the same opinion and explained why you are collectively wrong to have that opinion, now if you are offended by that, I offer you my apologies.
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you don’t know what my opinion is. Let’s move on. This is as boring as the Utd match.
 
JPRouve said:
So your post about the EU refusing to negotiate with Cameron wasn't your opinion?
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You took it too literally. my opinion is it’s boring, as I said, and I’m bored - and after wasting my time watching the game tonight, I’ve better things to be doing. Goodnight.
 
No, not for the foreseeable future, especially with the total shit show of the last 5 years (and even that with the country that was always perhaps the most awkward member, at least publicly).

However, in 15-20 years, who knows? Would we have predicted this would happen in the UK 20 years ago?

If in 15-20 years, our global economy is still in tatters, who knows what kinds of populists will be springing up across the continent.

On balance though, I still think its more likely in the long run that the UK will rejoin in some form than the EU breaking up, and certainly breaking up in the fantastical way that some want it to where it ceases to exist totally.
 
UnofficialDevil said:
How is Mitsotakis an Elite?
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A prime minister that has studied in Harvard and Stanford born in a wealthy family that his grand-grand father was a member of the parliament, his grand father too, his father was a prime minister, he had an uncle also prime minister, his sister is a member of the parliament and former mayor of Athens, his nephew is the current mayor of Athens (previously a regional governor) and has other associates in high positions in business and state administration, i m pretty sure is part of the elite.
And he represents everything that is wrong with the European elites: arrogant, yet useless.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
This shit again?

Leavers are utterly fecking obsessed with the EU, leave us alone you utter nutters, be happy.
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The funny thing is that all their actions only led to no one giving a feck about them anymore :lol:. They did us a favor. (Brexiteers and UK Politicians that is, before some halfwit comes in explaining how everyone cares about Astrazeneca)
 
From the outside, thoughts like this just seem like a wet dream from the brexit types.
 
My expectations were low, as were many people's, but 30% think it's going well, or at least better than expected:confused:
I guess we aren't having to feed on rats yet.

 
led_scholes said:
A prime minister that has studied in Harvard and Stanford born in a wealthy family that his grand-grand father was a member of the parliament, his grand father too, his father was a prime minister, he had an uncle also prime minister, his sister is a member of the parliament and former mayor of Athens, his nephew is the current mayor of Athens (previously a regional governor) and has other associates in high positions in business and state administration, i m pretty sure is part of the elite.
And he represents everything that is wrong with the European elites: arrogant, yet useless.
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Ah sorry my bad. I agree. I misunderstood you.
 
A country whose currency is Euro breaking a stable monetary and economic system involving more than 20 countries? I don't see happening.

Financial markets rule the world.
 
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