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He was in the studio. It's hardly controversial. Lewin is close to goal when he goes for the cross instead of the shot, goalkeeper has no idea what's behind him and if it's safe to let the ball go across, so he does the only thing he can do. It's bad luck, not a mistake.Where’s his argument?
I’m always ready to re-educate myself.
A former keeper who was utter dogshit.I like how a forum user is referring to goalkeeping 101 while a former professional goalkeeper at the highest level explains why it's not a mistake.
Mint
This is nonsense. Your attempts in this thread at painting this incident as some as anything other than dreadful goalkeeping with walls of text and stills are a bit of strange one at this point. Goalkeepers union from a player who retired three decades ago from Erik the Viking? He's entitled to his opinion as we all are, but I find it impossible to take it seriously given what I watched.He was in the studio. It's hardly controversial. Lewin is close to goal when he goes for the cross instead of the shot, goalkeeper has no idea what's behind him and if it's safe to let the ball go across, so he does the only thing he can do. It's bad luck, not a mistake.
Why is it nonsense and how is it a goalkeepers unionThis is nonsense. Your attempts in this thread at painting this incident as some as anything other than dreadful goalkeeping with walls of text and stills are a bit of strange one at this point. Goalkeepers union from a player who retired three decades ago from Erik the Viking? He's entitled to his opinion as we all are, but I find it impossible to take it seriously given what I watched.
Your post pretty much sums up exactly why I feel the majority of people shouldn't have access to stats.I've wanted him out for a long time now. I wasn't even that big a fan during his prime as reflexes aside, he still had too many weaknesses.
The past 3 seasons reminds me of the post Schmeichel period. We really need a commanding GK as a replacement for him and I'm not even sure Henderson is the answer.
It may be that our defense isn't even that bad, they just can't push up higher as De Gea won't sweep behind them. They're also nervous as hell at set pieces as they know he ain't for coming off his line.
Imagine Schmeichel in goal at the end yesterday. He'd have dived at Calvert Lewin with his crazy star jump style dive and Calvert Lewin would have shit his pants. De Gea has never gained the respect of his opponents like the great
keepers before him because the guys such a coward.
I'm not even sure Henderson is the answer as so far, he appears to be a De Gea lite to me but he deserves a chance at least.
Romero was never given a chance here but imo, we need a world class keeper of his style. Commands his area, communicates well, sweeps up when needed, good positioning, good with the ball at his feet and a good shot stopper when needed.
In comparison, stats below since Romero signed in 15/16 season
Romero
Games - 61
Goals Conceded - 27
Clean Sheets - 39
Clean Sheet Percentage - 64%
De Gea
Games - 256
Goals Conceded - 265
Clean Sheets - 91
Clean Sheet Percentage - 35.5%
De Gea - last 2.5 seasons
Games - 116
Goals Conceded - 142
Clean Sheets - 34
Clean Sheet Percentage - 29.3%
A commanding win for Romero proving my point also that defenders perform better with him in goal.
Romero was never given a proper chance in the league yet in only 7 appearances he managed to keep a phenomenal 6 clean sheets.
I honestly believe we won't return to being a world class team until De Gea is replaced. GK is the most important position on the field and a leader there drives confidence through the whole team.
De Gea is our No1 problem.
No. MediocrityIrrelevant point. And our defense has often been quite good post SAF whereas the attack has been a let down. Anyway, it doesn't matter. We have solve all our problems rather than use one problem (rest of defence) to absolve the other (DDGs mistakes).
Bob, get over your love affair with the guy, he's totally finished.Your post pretty much sums up exactly why I feel the majority of people shouldn't have access to stats.
I think it’s pretty controversial. He’s basically saying that the only thing the keeper can do there is something 95% plus of people consider a mistake.He was in the studio. It's hardly controversial. Lewin is close to goal when he goes for the cross instead of the shot, goalkeeper has no idea what's behind him and if it's safe to let the ball go across, so he does the only thing he can do. It's bad luck, not a mistake.
Or your stats lack any context at all ignoring simple fact that De Gea plays against strong teams and Romero plays in cup games against cannon fodder.A commanding win for Romero proving my point also that defenders perform better with him in goal.
There's no staunch defense of De Gea, I'm simply explaining why the first goal isn't a goalkeeper mistake. The third is very poor from him and people are right to have a go at him for it.@UncleBob can I ask why the staunch defence of DeGea when it’s clear as day he’s not good enough anymore, surely you can see that too just like the rest of us?
Okay, I agree with stats you can dress them up to look like anything you want, which doesn’t always reflect the truth.There's no staunch defense of De Gea, I'm simply explaining why the first goal isn't a goalkeeper mistake. The third is very poor from him and people are right to have a go at him for it.
The rest, not so much. The abhorrent use of stats, for instance, there's no common sense. James goal to make it 2-2 has an xG of 0,08, Lewin to make it 3-3 is 0.58. Which one of them is the mistake. It's perfectly fine to use stats as a foundation for further investigation, to see if there's something behind the numbers that portraits a big issue, but simply using numbers to compare goalkeepers is beyond stupidity.
It's reached a point where even if he's fouled it's somehow his fault, I find it odd.
Brilliant post.So in response to some posters yesterday, I have provided some statistics for 'expected goals against', which of course DOES attempt to take into account the quality of shot a goalkeeper faces.
Now the problem with this is that it doesn't factor into account goals that were caused by problems of the goalkeepers own making. For example, 99% of people believe De Gea was at fault for Everton's first goal yesterday. However, the 'expected save' metric for that shot would be very low...because the mistake was palming a tame cross straight to Doucoure. Doucoure's shot, which was an open goal from a yard out, would have had a very high xG percentage.
Likewise, it wouldn't factor in mistakes like De Gea's cowardice at corners/free-kicks leading to goals against or goals like Everton's 3rd yesterday, where he bottles a challenge, because again, once DCL actually gets on the end of that chance, his xG will be very high from that position.
Anyway....I've explained why it's flawed but people asked for it and it still looks horrible for De Gea
GOALKEEPER TEAM GA PSxG PSxG +/- Nick Pope Burnley 24 29.4 6.4 Alphonse Areola Fulham 28 33.3 5.3 Emiliano Martínez Aston Villa 24 28.3 4.3 Robert Sánchez Brighton 11 14.1 4.1 Bernd Leno Arsenal 22 22.6 3.6 Hugo Lloris Tottenham 22 23.5 3.5 Alisson Liverpool 15 18.3 3.3 Kasper Schmeichel Leicester City 25 27.1 3.1 Illan Meslier Leeds United 37 38.1 2.1 Sam Johnstone West Brom 50 48.4 1.4 Caoimhin Kelleher Liverpool 1 2.2 1.2 Ederson Manchester City 12 11.6 0.6 Dean Henderson Manchester Utd 3 3.4 0.4 Darren Randolph West Ham 0 0.4 0.4 Łukasz Fabiański West Ham 28 28.2 0.2 Rúnar Alex Rúnarsson Arsenal 0 0.1 0.1 Kiko Casilla Leeds United 1 1 0 Fraser Forster Southampton 0 0 0 Vicente Guaita Crystal Palace 37 37 0 Robin Olsen Everton 6 5.8 -0.2 David Button West Brom 2 1.7 -0.3 Zack Steffen Manchester City 1 0.6 -0.4 Marek Rodák Fulham 3 2.5 -0.5 Bailey Peacock-Farrell Burnley 5 4.4 -0.6 Edouard Mendy Chelsea 14 13.3 -0.7 Kepa Arrizabalaga Chelsea 6 4.8 -1.2 David de Gea Manchester Utd 27 23.7 -1.3 Willy Caballero Chelsea 3 1.5 -1.5 Karl Darlow Newcastle Utd 38 34.4 -1.6
There we have it...a Manchester United goalkeeper on £350K a week mixing it with the likes of Bailey Peacock-Farrell, David Button, Robin Olsen, Kiko Casilla and Karl Darlow. De Gea is even below Kepa!
Yesterday I was accused of being arrogant by several posters...well, OK, I get angry and can be a bit patronising when I'm frustrated...but my feelings are that I can forgive any player a mistake. The problem is with De Gea is that he has been very poor since Jose's first season. Ever since then, visually and statistically he has been one of the worst GKs in the league.
Likewise, I can forgive handling errors. What I can't forgive, and I don't think any of us should forgive, is his cowardice. Most of us on this forum would give their right arms to play for Utd (and probably still be better GKs than DDG), yet this bloke is playing week-in, week-out and costs us goal after goal by being scared of the ball, opponents and his own shadow! Unforgivable for me.
Also, just one for the Henderson 'is not the answer' posters...I'd love to know how on earth you draw that conclusion? I'm not saying Henderson IS the answer....but last season he had the best save percentage and the best performance against xG in the Premier League. This season, he has only played 3.5 games in the PL and is performing like a proper keeper based on saves/expected saves...so how anybody has enough evidence to write him off is really baffling.
Donnarumma’s contract is up, surely wouldn’t be a bad move if we could get him and let Henderson and him fight it out? Getting de Gea off the books might prove more difficult however.Brilliant post.
Well sourced & good perspective.
His mistake leading to a High xG chance won’t show in xG data, so Doucoure’s chance actually pads the stats in favour of DDG when had he dealt competently with the cross xG wouldn’t have been inflated.
I remember going back & forth with one of the data guys on here about why I can only trust xG so far & he was adamant that it’s the best way to judge which is b*llocks imo.
It’s over to OgS now, Hendo may not be the answer but it’s clear DDG certainly isn’t either.
You believe people shouldn't have access to facts because they are factual evidence. When presented with factual evidence you have no leg to stand on and look insane.Your post pretty much sums up exactly why I feel the majority of people shouldn't have access to stats.
100% agree with you. In no way would I have a vendetta against the lad, if anyone thinks that then they can bugger off. Just annoys me seeing goalkeepers these days who are totally weak in commanding there box, not just talking De Gea but goalkeepers over all. That Box is your Domain, you call the shots, nobody messes with you in there. Just makes you wonder what the goalkeeper coaches coach nowadays. Do they do it because of fear of injuries, payouts etc, you’d think the opposite seeing as you are the only player that can handle the ball, gives you some advantage, then again people will say you can’t touch keepers these days so it’s a lose loseOn a positive note, you are 100% correct.
On a negative note, I have to warn you that you are entering a world of pain if you think anything will be done about it. I've been saying this for ten years but all that happens is you get accused of having a personal vendetta against the lad or that you're not a real fan.
I've said this about a million times now, but what is it going to take for our fans and, more importantly, our coaching staff, to realise how big of a problem this is?
I feel your pain pal, I've been labelled the same on here many a time for simply pointing out facts, as you are.So in response to some posters yesterday, I have provided some statistics for 'expected goals against', which of course DOES attempt to take into account the quality of shot a goalkeeper faces.
Now the problem with this is that it doesn't factor into account goals that were caused by problems of the goalkeepers own making. For example, 99% of people believe De Gea was at fault for Everton's first goal yesterday. However, the 'expected save' metric for that shot would be very low...because the mistake was palming a tame cross straight to Doucoure. Doucoure's shot, which was an open goal from a yard out, would have had a very high xG percentage.
Likewise, it wouldn't factor in mistakes like De Gea's cowardice at corners/free-kicks leading to goals against or goals like Everton's 3rd yesterday, where he bottles a challenge, because again, once DCL actually gets on the end of that chance, his xG will be very high from that position.
Anyway....I've explained why it's flawed but people asked for it and it still looks horrible for De Gea
GOALKEEPER TEAM GA PSxG PSxG +/- Nick Pope Burnley 24 29.4 6.4 Alphonse Areola Fulham 28 33.3 5.3 Emiliano Martínez Aston Villa 24 28.3 4.3 Robert Sánchez Brighton 11 14.1 4.1 Bernd Leno Arsenal 22 22.6 3.6 Hugo Lloris Tottenham 22 23.5 3.5 Alisson Liverpool 15 18.3 3.3 Kasper Schmeichel Leicester City 25 27.1 3.1 Illan Meslier Leeds United 37 38.1 2.1 Sam Johnstone West Brom 50 48.4 1.4 Caoimhin Kelleher Liverpool 1 2.2 1.2 Ederson Manchester City 12 11.6 0.6 Dean Henderson Manchester Utd 3 3.4 0.4 Darren Randolph West Ham 0 0.4 0.4 Łukasz Fabiański West Ham 28 28.2 0.2 Rúnar Alex Rúnarsson Arsenal 0 0.1 0.1 Kiko Casilla Leeds United 1 1 0 Fraser Forster Southampton 0 0 0 Vicente Guaita Crystal Palace 37 37 0 Robin Olsen Everton 6 5.8 -0.2 David Button West Brom 2 1.7 -0.3 Zack Steffen Manchester City 1 0.6 -0.4 Marek Rodák Fulham 3 2.5 -0.5 Bailey Peacock-Farrell Burnley 5 4.4 -0.6 Edouard Mendy Chelsea 14 13.3 -0.7 Kepa Arrizabalaga Chelsea 6 4.8 -1.2 David de Gea Manchester Utd 27 23.7 -1.3 Willy Caballero Chelsea 3 1.5 -1.5 Karl Darlow Newcastle Utd 38 34.4 -1.6
There we have it...a Manchester United goalkeeper on £350K a week mixing it with the likes of Bailey Peacock-Farrell, David Button, Robin Olsen, Kiko Casilla and Karl Darlow. De Gea is even below Kepa!
Yesterday I was accused of being arrogant by several posters...well, OK, I get angry and can be a bit patronising when I'm frustrated...but my feelings are that I can forgive any player a mistake. The problem is with De Gea is that he has been very poor since Jose's first season. Ever since then, visually and statistically he has been one of the worst GKs in the league.
Likewise, I can forgive handling errors. What I can't forgive, and I don't think any of us should forgive, is his cowardice. Most of us on this forum would give their right arms to play for Utd (and probably still be better GKs than DDG), yet this bloke is playing week-in, week-out and costs us goal after goal by being scared of the ball, opponents and his own shadow! Unforgivable for me.
Also, just one for the Henderson 'is not the answer' posters...I'd love to know how on earth you draw that conclusion? I'm not saying Henderson IS the answer....but last season he had the best save percentage and the best performance against xG in the Premier League. This season, he has only played 3.5 games in the PL and is performing like a proper keeper based on saves/expected saves...so how anybody has enough evidence to write him off is really baffling.
Good post. Though I favour giving Henderson a chance in the immediate term, I would not be averse to making a determined bid for Pope in the next windowSo in response to some posters yesterday, I have provided some statistics for 'expected goals against', which of course DOES attempt to take into account the quality of shot a goalkeeper faces.
Now the problem with this is that it doesn't factor into account goals that were caused by problems of the goalkeepers own making. For example, 99% of people believe De Gea was at fault for Everton's first goal yesterday. However, the 'expected save' metric for that shot would be very low...because the mistake was palming a tame cross straight to Doucoure. Doucoure's shot, which was an open goal from a yard out, would have had a very high xG percentage.
Likewise, it wouldn't factor in mistakes like De Gea's cowardice at corners/free-kicks leading to goals against or goals like Everton's 3rd yesterday, where he bottles a challenge, because again, once DCL actually gets on the end of that chance, his xG will be very high from that position.
Anyway....I've explained why it's flawed but people asked for it and it still looks horrible for De Gea
GOALKEEPER TEAM GA PSxG PSxG +/- Nick Pope Burnley 24 29.4 6.4 Alphonse Areola Fulham 28 33.3 5.3 Emiliano Martínez Aston Villa 24 28.3 4.3 Robert Sánchez Brighton 11 14.1 4.1 Bernd Leno Arsenal 22 22.6 3.6 Hugo Lloris Tottenham 22 23.5 3.5 Alisson Liverpool 15 18.3 3.3 Kasper Schmeichel Leicester City 25 27.1 3.1 Illan Meslier Leeds United 37 38.1 2.1 Sam Johnstone West Brom 50 48.4 1.4 Caoimhin Kelleher Liverpool 1 2.2 1.2 Ederson Manchester City 12 11.6 0.6 Dean Henderson Manchester Utd 3 3.4 0.4 Darren Randolph West Ham 0 0.4 0.4 Łukasz Fabiański West Ham 28 28.2 0.2 Rúnar Alex Rúnarsson Arsenal 0 0.1 0.1 Kiko Casilla Leeds United 1 1 0 Fraser Forster Southampton 0 0 0 Vicente Guaita Crystal Palace 37 37 0 Robin Olsen Everton 6 5.8 -0.2 David Button West Brom 2 1.7 -0.3 Zack Steffen Manchester City 1 0.6 -0.4 Marek Rodák Fulham 3 2.5 -0.5 Bailey Peacock-Farrell Burnley 5 4.4 -0.6 Edouard Mendy Chelsea 14 13.3 -0.7 Kepa Arrizabalaga Chelsea 6 4.8 -1.2 David de Gea Manchester Utd 27 23.7 -1.3 Willy Caballero Chelsea 3 1.5 -1.5 Karl Darlow Newcastle Utd 38 34.4 -1.6
There we have it...a Manchester United goalkeeper on £350K a week mixing it with the likes of Bailey Peacock-Farrell, David Button, Robin Olsen, Kiko Casilla and Karl Darlow. De Gea is even below Kepa!
Yesterday I was accused of being arrogant by several posters...well, OK, I get angry and can be a bit patronising when I'm frustrated...but my feelings are that I can forgive any player a mistake. The problem is with De Gea is that he has been very poor since Jose's first season. Ever since then, visually and statistically he has been one of the worst GKs in the league.
Likewise, I can forgive handling errors. What I can't forgive, and I don't think any of us should forgive, is his cowardice. Most of us on this forum would give their right arms to play for Utd (and probably still be better GKs than DDG), yet this bloke is playing week-in, week-out and costs us goal after goal by being scared of the ball, opponents and his own shadow! Unforgivable for me.
Also, just one for the Henderson 'is not the answer' posters...I'd love to know how on earth you draw that conclusion? I'm not saying Henderson IS the answer....but last season he had the best save percentage and the best performance against xG in the Premier League. This season, he has only played 3.5 games in the PL and is performing like a proper keeper based on saves/expected saves...so how anybody has enough evidence to write him off is really baffling.
Romero has 6 clean sheets in 7 premier league games conceding only 2 goals. If De Gea had those sort of numbers we'd still be top of the league.Or your stats lack any context at all ignoring simple fact that De Gea plays against strong teams and Romero plays in cup games against cannon fodder.
OK. Against which teams did De Gea play and Romero play?Romero has 6 clean sheets in 7 premier league games conceding only 2 goals. If De Gea had those sort of numbers we'd still be top of the league.
Okay Romero only plays against cannon fodder so lets compare them on common ground.
For United in the Europa League
Romero
Games - 23
Goals Conceded - 9
Clean Sheets - 15
Clean Sheet Percentage - 65%
De Gea
Games - 11
Goals Conceded - 16
Clean Sheets - 2
Clean Sheet Percentage - 18%
De Gea conceds 7 more goals in 12 less games. The fact is we're more composed defensively with Romero between the posts. He might not have the reflexes of De Gea but he's still a very good shot stopper.
He's better than De Gea at everything else.
De Gea's the most overrated goalkeeper I've ever seen and has been getting by on past reputation for 3 years now.
This is the biggest problem, he lacks courage to come out of the line and also to clatter into CF. He is too timid which makes whole defense nervous.No less annoyed with this halfwit today than I was last night. His compete and utter cowardice costs us points every couple of weeks.
The argument as to whether Henderson is good enough or not is a load of fecking rubbish, too. Chuck him in for the rest of the reason (he’s clearly a decent keeper). If he lives up to the billing then good; if he doesn’t then we prioritise buying the best goalkeeper available on the market in the summer.
Dogshit.
This.No less annoyed with this halfwit today than I was last night. His compete and utter cowardice costs us points every couple of weeks.
The argument as to whether Henderson is good enough or not is a load of fecking rubbish, too. Chuck him in for the rest of the reason (he’s clearly a decent keeper). If he lives up to the billing then good; if he doesn’t then we prioritise buying the best goalkeeper available on the market in the summer.
Dogshit.
I think we have to give Henderson a good run asap to figure out if he is good enough. No point buying a top keeper if we have a potential club legend on the bench.Saying that, not sure if I would stick or twist as I am not sure still if Henderson is the answer. I would atm in time prefer us to dip into the market for a replacement keeper.
With Donnarumma's contract expiring, I wouldn't be against us trying to snap him up!
It's not that I necessarily think Henderson's the answer, I would just like to see him get a run out, right now we don't really know much about him. Keeper, like any position needs more than 1 game to find form. If it turns out he's no good either then we can put keeper on our shopping list this summer.I find it ironic that many claim Henderson isn't the answer based solely on an error made against Sheffield United in which he took a bit too long on the ball trying to play from the back.
Yet somehow people feel more confident with de Gea who makes routine, fundamental goalkeeping errors on a weekly basis.
I'm vexed.
Was David a nice child as a boy? The only reason I ask is that I assume you must be De Gea’s mum or dad.He's intercepting a low, hard pass - all he can do is get in its way. He can't hold it or box it, and he has no possibility to put strength on it. Pushing it back the way it came would have been colossally stupid - if it hadn't given Calvert-Lewin another chance, it might have bounced back into the net. He don't know and can't know what's coming up behind him, as he's having had to spend a good few seconds with his attention glued to DCL. His only option is leaving it altogether, but that would not have been less risky than what he did. Someone comes in on the far post, and that's an open goal. If he directs it out, at least it changes the direction of the ball and is harder to anticipate. He did the only thing he could do.
