As Rugby refuses to take the knee, is it time the Premier League stopped too?

[Zexstream]

White people have problems too but we have never been oppressed because of our skin colour in this country.

Now that is just nonsense.

White people were used for slavery, the Irish were starved in their own country by the British.

They are countless events in history where white people were oppressed.

 

[iamBen]

"I'm not racist at all lads, I just racially abused that guy to unsettle him. Stand up guy, me."

"Some of my best friends are

It’s a token gesture that really means nothing without action, and it’s absolutely for good PR & nothing more. However the shitstorm it would cause by stopping it with the woke twitter mob means it’s probably not worth it.

It's weird how much power the "woke twitter mob" have over people who don't have to follow them, or even read what they say. Much like how much power the 'radical left' have over politics, despite the whole Tories being in power for a decade thing.

 

[BarstoolProphet]

What is this marketing telling people, Racism is bad. How many people are going to say, well I never knew that!

How many Racists watch players taking the knee and say to themselves, well I guess I had better stop being racist.

Bending the knee raises awareness to who? Those who didn't know racism was bad?

I really don't know you're replying in a sarcastic manner here. It might not help educate the idiots who already identify themselves as racists but it might help those that in the future might be influenced to avoid ending up like said idiots. It's a marathon, not a sprint. The reason I compared it to marketing is that you often can't directly attribute bigger sales to a specific campaign beforehand but at the same time there's strong evidence that continuing to raise awareness about your product will most like boost sales significantly.

The Premier League is one of the most marketable products in the whole world. I fail to why anyone should mock them for using their power to raise awareness about a human (not political!) movement, when there's clear evidence that just relying on people's ability to take a stand against racism hasn't worked out at all.

Next you're telling me that Chris Kaepernick's actions was pointless.

 

[SuperiorXI]

Now that is just nonsense.

White people were used for slavery, the Irish were starved in their own country by the British.

They are countless events in history where white people were oppressed.

Taking the knee is to highlight issues happening right now and right now in the US/UK, racism against black people is a very real problem.

 

[Zexstream]

No shit.

However currently black lives are treated like they do not matter as much as anyone else. Hence BLM. I don't know how you missed this when everyone had to have this explained to them last June.

That is your view and I respect that. I can only speak from my view and from what I can see most people in modern Britain are on an equal footing. If a Black person gets a job in Asda for instance they start on the same wages, they are afforded the same rights and legal protections.

 

[Solius]

That is your view and I respect that. I can only speak from my view and from what I can see most people in modern Britain are on an equal footing. If a Black person gets a job in Asda for instance they start on the same wages, they are afforded the same rights and legal protections.

What is your ethnicity if you don't mind me asking?

 

[Red_toad]

Kick out Racism has been associated with the Premier League for as long as I can remember, even in Online Games etc. Has it actually helped?


If someone is racist I don't think a player taking the knee is going to change their worldview.

That is very true. Addressing their beliefs with regard to race through education is the way forward, that and a genuine review of how we order society.
Like many have said Marcus is doing some fantastic with helping people who are struggling with modern society and the distribution of wealth. Greed has left the poorer parts of society behind and they’re falling even further back, we can never have any kind of equality with the way a lot of Goverment’s in western countries are going about their business. How to change that? Answers on a postcard please...

 

[duffer]

That is your view and I respect that. I can only speak from my view and from what I can see most people in modern Britain are on an equal footing. If a Black person gets a job in Asda for instance they start on the same wages, they are afforded the same rights and legal protections.

Why do you think so many black people are talking about these issues still?

Do you think they're just having an unjustified moan? Or do you think their life experience might be different to yours?

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Now that is just nonsense.

White people were used for slavery, the Irish were starved in their own country by the British.

They are countless events in history where white people were oppressed.

Unless I'm drastically mistaken, That has everything to do with nationality and nothing to do with being white.

 

[BarstoolProphet]

That is your view and I respect that. I can only speak from my view and from what I can see most people in modern Britain are on an equal footing. If a Black person gets a job in Asda for instance they start on the same wages, they are afforded the same rights and legal protections.

That tells you that we have indeed come a long way, but is it enough? What if that said worker is constantly being abused at work because of his skin colour, should we just tell him to move on with it while pointing at his job, salary and general working rights?

 

[Ananke]

Now that is just nonsense.

White people were used for slavery, the Irish were starved in their own country by the British.

They are countless events in history where white people were oppressed.

"White people have never been oppressed because of their skin colour"

Read the post. Then reply.

Also, I'm actually hoping these replies make you question your views on the situation and not make you feel stupid. As I'm sure others are too.

The OP talked about how this taking a knee should "stop" because it's not solving the issue of racism and there are other things that should be done. Whilst also indicating there isn't an issue of racism in the UK. Racism inherently lives in society, it will always exist. It's never going to be eradicated, people are conditioned to it. People will continue to be conditioned to it, and if we don't combat it in the various ways we have done it will grow. Think of it like a cancer, it's not a case of finding the cure because the cure doesn't exist. It's about using preventative measures to stop it growing and reduce it.

 

[duffer]

What is your ethnicity if you don't mind me asking?

Who was the poster on here who pretended to be black in order to make their point seem more valid? Did that happen or is my lockdown addled brain miss-remembering?

 

[Zexstream]

Why do you think so many black people are talking about these issues still?

Do you think they're just having an unjustified moan? Or do you think their life experience might be different to yours?

I honestly think it was all caught up in the George Floyd movement at the time, the same period people were pulling down statues. Now they genuinely don't know how to stop.

 

[norm87cro]

It's a very complex issue and the incident involving Millwall fans just emphasizes this.
Society tends to treat people unfairly and black people in the USA are not the only people being treated badly world wide.
We can make a case for gay people, women in third world countries, religious minorities and a lot of other groups.
Its because of this that I think that the message that ALL LIVES matter is a more important one and the kneeling should stop.


And I think this thread shouldn't be amongst our MUFC/football related threads.

 

[Zexstream]

Unless I'm drastically mistaken, That has everything to do with nationality and nothing to do with being white.

Well, you can ask yourself why at the time was Ireland a major exporter of food but the British government decided to starve them of that food. Sure it may have nothing to do with skin colour but it had everything to do with race.

 

[duffer]

I honestly think it was all caught up in the George Floyd movement at the time, the same period people were pulling down statues. Now they genuinely don't know how to stop.

So not because of any actual issues they face?

Not sure how to respond if that's what you really think. Wow.

 

[Judas]

I honestly think it was all caught up in the George Floyd movement at the time, the same period people were pulling down statues. Now they genuinely don't know how to stop.

Yes its awful that people aren't stopping.....fighting for justice?

 

[Zexstream]

"White people have never been oppressed because of their skin colour"

Read the post. Then reply.

https://news.osu.edu/when-europeans...as-much-more-common-than-previously-believed/

history of whites being used as slaves.

 

[Solius]

I honestly think it was all caught up in the George Floyd movement at the time, the same period people were pulling down statues. Now they genuinely don't know how to stop.

I think maybe you should start listening to these people and hear their stories. You keep saying it looks fine from your view and of course it does. I'm assuming you are white?

That is part of the problem. Too many people claiming things aren't that bad just because it hasn't happened to them or they haven't seen it happen to anyone.

 

[Frosty]

@Frosty
Okay so you have a good grasp of it then. Do you then understand how difficult it would be to charge a police officer after the majority of those situations with manslaughter or even murder. It’s not the thread for it and I don’t want to derail. But I dunno I see people do this a lot, post death in custody figures and then follow it with stuff like “officer not charged”. Without presenting the overall picture so that people can actually fully understand it.

Whilst I agree that this may not be the place to discuss this, and I am more than happy for us to engage in a genuine debate elsewhere (I am not interested in shouting you or anyone else down), I would like to say a couple of things in relation to this, as you raise good questions.

First, since the OP made the connection between BLM and America, the statistics in the UK show that it has been half a century since a police officer has even been charged with the death of a BAME person. The last case was David Oluwale - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-47946556. This was also the first and only prosecution of the police for the death of a black person.

Now, US society is highly criticised for not prosecuting officers who shoot and kill African Americans. But the officers who killed George Floyd have been charged and will be put in trial.

I think that the fact that we have deaths in custody here, that we have cases like Mark Duggan and Darren Cumberbatch, and that we are worse than the USA is for holding police accountable for those types of cases is at least worthy of discussion.

Second, the IOPC is seen as not fit for purpose amongst many families whose loved ones have died in police custody: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...after-contact-with-police-still-await-justice

Less than 1 in 10 officers found guilty of gross misconduct are fired - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...officers-fired-after-gross-misconduct-finding

The point I am getting at is I suspect there is a structural problem here. The CPS could bring charges against the police - the two stage test is no different for the police as for you and I. But there appears to be a combination of institutional inertia and a lack of wider understanding of the potential problem here. We are over twenty years since MacPherson's judgment of institutional racism on the Met and many issues appear endemic. 90% of young people on remand are BAME.

• Overall stop-and-search rates between 2018 and 2019 show that Black people are now nearly 10 times more likely to be stopped and searched by police than white people.
• Young black men were stopped and searched by police more than 20,000 times in London during the coronavirus lockdown – the equivalent more than a quarter of all black 15- to 24-year-olds in the capital (see https://www.theguardian.com/law/202...ns-young-black-males-stopped-by-police-in-may).
• If stopped a Muslim individual is eight times as likely to be searched as other ethnic groups. (https://www.crimeandjustice.org.uk/...-and-search-within-british-muslim-communities).

People of black, Asian and minority ethnicity (BAME) die disproportionately because of use of force or restraint by police (https://www.inquest.org.uk/bame-deaths-in-police-custody).

The proportion of BAME deaths in custody where restraint is a feature is over two time greater than it is in other deaths in custody.

The proportion of BAME deaths in custody where use of force is a feature is over two times greater than it is in other deaths in custody.

The proportion of BAME deaths in custody where mental health-related issues are a feature is nearly two times greater than it is in other deaths in custody.

In 2017 Dame Elish Angiolini QC published her Independent Review of Deaths and Serious Incidents in Policy Custody (available here https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/deaths-and-serious-incidents-in-police-custody).

The Review recognised the disproportionate number of deaths of people from Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic groups following restraint and the role of institutional racism and police training and concluded that the "Deaths of people from BAME communities, in particular young black men, resonate with the black community's experience of systemic racism."

In June 2020, YouGov carried out opinion polling of 300 police officers ranking from Constable up to Chief Superintendent in Great Britain (https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politic...e_article&utm_campaign=police_and_steteotpyes).

Two in five officers (41%) agreed with the statement that stereotypes about other groups of police are usually true. This is a higher figure than the general public - a quarter (26%) of them agreed with this. 55% of police officers surveyed also think that human rights laws have been bad for criminal justice:

 

[BarstoolProphet]

https://news.osu.edu/when-europeans...as-much-more-common-than-previously-believed/

history of whites being used as slaves.

What kind of site is that? It's blocked at my work network.

 

[Charlie Foley]

Because I doubt a Millionaire Footballer is really in touch with the world and are only doing as they are told, not what they actually care about.

For instance, its ok for them to break lockdown rules, have haircuts etc, whist the rest of us follow the rules.

Do you think Marcus Rashford is out of touch?

 

[Zexstream]

Yes its awful that people aren't stopping.....fighting for justice?

What justice, justice for who?

I think maybe you should start listening to these people and hear their stories. You keep saying it looks fine from your view and of course it does. I'm assuming you are white?

That is part of the problem. Too many people claiming things aren't that bad just because it hasn't happened to them or they haven't seen it happen to anyone.

You can literally find people from every background, race colour and creed that have in some way been affected by racism, poverty, unfairness and inequality. Rashford himself has highlighted this.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

I honestly think it was all caught up in the George Floyd movement at the time, the same period people were pulling down statues. Now they genuinely don't know how to stop.

Who's they? Black people? Black people don't know how to stop what? Talking about how they're treated differently in society? Or subjected to racist abuse? Is that something "they" should stop?

 

[Zexstream]

What kind of site is that? It's blocked at my work network.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_slavery

 

[Frosty]

https://news.osu.edu/when-europeans...as-much-more-common-than-previously-believed/

history of whites being used as slaves.

That isn't the full history, given that it omits slavery in antiquity, and Bristol was used as a slave port in the 11th century.

The UK enslaved 3.1 million Africans in 11,000 separate voyages between 1640 and 1807. Only 2.7 million made it alive to the Americas and Caribbean. The rest died or were killed on the voyage across.

 

[Zexstream]

Who's they? Black people? Black people don't know how to stop what? Talking about how they're treated differently in society? Or subjected to racist abuse? Is that something "they" should stop?

The Premier League, please don't try to put words into my mouth.

 

[Charlie Foley]

How so?

Maybe I am out of touch but I would argue things are much better than they were in the 80s, equality laws have benefited all, how are things still so bad?

Now you are the out of touch one. I am confused.

and “better” does not = “totally fixed”. Improvement is relative

 

[Charlie Foley]

Sheeple.

Wake up!

 

[Zexstream]

That isn't the full history, given that it omits slavery in antiquity, and Bristol was used as a slave port in the 11th century.

The UK enslaved 3.1 million Africans in 11,000 separate voyages between 1640 and 1807. Only 2.7 million made it alive to the Americas and Caribbean. The rest died or were killed on the voyage across.

Point being, History teaches us all people of colour have been used as slaves. Even Black people used black slaves.

So, White people have been oppressed also, in answer to the point that said white people hadnt.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

"Some of my best friends are


It's weird how much power the "woke twitter mob" have over people who don't have to follow them, or even read what they say. Much like how much power the 'radical left' have over politics, despite the whole Tories being in power for a decade thing.

Im not political so I don’t really have a dog in the fight (although I do usually vote labour or Lib Dem) however I think it’s mostly an American thing. A lot of the big tech orgs like google, Facebook, twitter, apple etc seem lean quite heavily left & an idiot on the right is far more likely to be banned/suspended than an idiot on the left is. The “cancel culture” & “woke” stuff on social media almost always comes from the left. The Black Lives Matter group clearly lean very heavily to the left, which is why I think they should be separated from things like football. There’s ways to raise awareness to discrimination & racism (which is a massive problem in football & in the United fanbase) that don’t involve giving attention to a fairly extreme political group whose supporters often call for violence against opposing viewpoints & police officers.

 

[Matthew84!]

Close this thread, will only end up with people calling each other racist

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Why do you think so many black people are talking about these issues still?

Do you think they're just having an unjustified moan? Or do you think their life experience might be different to yours?

I honestly think it was all caught up in the George Floyd movement at the time, the same period people were pulling down statues. Now they genuinely don't know how to stop.

Who's they? Black people? Black people don't know how to stop what? Talking about how they're treated differently in society? Or subjected to racist abuse? Is that something "they" should stop?

The Premier League, please don't try to put words into my mouth.

I put zero words into your mouth - see above

 

[Harry190]

It's useless symbolism. They've put themselves in a situation from which they can't escape with dignity.

 

[BarstoolProphet]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_slavery

Ok, so what is your point exactly? That something that possibly happened several hundred years ago cancels out what's been happening for atleast as many centuries and still happening in 2021?

 

[Annihilate Now!]

It's useless symbolism. They've put themselves in a situation from which they can't escape with dignity.

But how is it useless? ... Who says its useless?

 

[Solius]

It's useless symbolism. They've put themselves in a situation from which they can't escape with dignity.

Tell that again to people who say it has encouraged their friends to learn more and opened their eyes to the racism others suffer.

 

[Ananke]

Point being, History teaches us all people of colour have been used as slaves. Even Black people used black slaves.

So, White people have been oppressed also, in answer to the point that said white people hadnt.

Your answer to oppression through skin colour was an example of the Irish, due to their nationality. The very fact that you replied with that fact, means you re-read it, realized your point was invalid, and then googled white slavery to find an answer that suited your statement. It actually wasn't prior knowledge to the question so you answered without any knowledge on the circumstance. Pure ignorance one may say.

It makes sense now.

 

[Harry190]

But how is it useless? ... Who says its useless?

It's useless. What has it achieved? Nothing? What has the Premier League done to help combat abuse? Nothing. What have the social media people done to change things? Nothing.
What does it represent? No one knows at this point.

They can keep doing it, doesn't mean anything really.

I am a utilitarian.

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

You literally just said 'Everybody knows racism is wrong'. I mean the simplest/easiest answer, to that silly statement..."No".

Everybody that will be affected by football players taking a knee, knows it's wrong, that I stand by. The others wont be affected by the "knee", I do also believe those that are racist know society deems it as wrong so not really sure what you are saying here?