We have a greater trophy haul but I don't think we've done better than Atletico, given the winners of the 3 competitions they compete in are the best 2 teams of the decade.
Diego Simeone - the missing one
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He should start a grunge band with Klopp and Nagelsmann. They can call it the insane clown posse. I'm sure that name's not taken.
We've won more trophies, we play better football and from the POV of the owners our club is financially run better. That's not me saying we've been doing well because we all know that we haven't but put it into comparison like that with a club that has massively underachieved and what's so great about Atlético? Most consistently dire side to watch on TV since the novelty wore off of a club other than Real challenging Messi.
He's done a brilliant job but there are definite signs of stagnation.
They've bought really poorly, wasted a lot of money and the football they play is truly horrendous.
Even if you're successful and winning trophies regularly, which they haven't really done the last 5 or 6 years anyway actually, playing such dogshit football is just so depressing.
They've bought really poorly, wasted a lot of money and the football they play is truly horrendous.
Even if you're successful and winning trophies regularly, which they haven't really done the last 5 or 6 years anyway actually, playing such dogshit football is just so depressing.
The trophies bit for me is difficult to agree with because in Europe we've been challenging for the Europa league whereas Atletico have consistently been finishing in the top 8 of the Champions league. Being knocked out of the CL by the greatest striker of all time vs beating Celta Vigo and an incredibly weak Ajax isn't exactly a huge pro or con against either team. Likewise the hardest teams we needed to beat to win the FA Cup were Everton and Crystal Palace. For our League Cup win, we needed to beat City's 2nd team, West Ham and Southampton. Atletico have a 99% chance of facing Barcelona or Real Madrid in the latter stages of their domestic cup competition.
You're right that we play better football right now but I wouldn't say that's been the case over the course of 7 years. Also I personally enjoy the Simeone/Mourinho style of play. (Maybe I'm perverse.)
Re: the club being run better financially; we're a bigger club so you'd except us to be in a better financial position, especially considering we're not part of La Liga with the unfair rights distributions etc. But I just googled 'net spend in the past decade' and it seems Atletico aren't even in the top 25 teams in Europe for this period. A Marca article from 2019 also states that Simeone's net spend for the period from 2012 to 2019 is £2.2m!
I think the bold text alone shows how good of a job he's done to keep a team competitive without necessarily having the financial muscle of other teams. (United's net spend for the period from 2010 to 2020 was apparently £850m, Barcelona £550m whilst having the best player of all time plus a pretty strong supporting cast, Real Madrid £397m whilst having the other best player of all time.)
Think his star has certainly faded in recent times.
I will never get used to it. I'm not perfect but I will never judge anyone after a single good or bad game, yet you see it every weeks on the caf and it comes from established(read old) posters.You've been here for seven years and it's only just struck you?
Probably just taken Atletico as far as it will go.
I think he’ll be at Inter next season
Apologies all for replying to my post but I just did some further digging. Despite signing €243m of players last season, in one of the biggest spending summers (biggest?) of Simeone's tenure, they sold players for €312m: including Griezmann, Rodri and Lucas Hernandez. It's clear that this is Atletico's 'modus operandi' so I'm going to double down on my claims that he's continuing to do a great job.
Some of the net spend can be explained by the sharp increase in transfer value. The buy Rodri and a year later he goes to City for triple the price. Barca and Bayern triggered the release clauses of Griezmann and Lucas Hernandez. The sells can be attributed to a few players but they really buy some duds.
Players that cost 20m or more since 2012: Morata (50m), Joao Felix (113m), Marcus Llorente, Mario Hermoso, Thomas Lemar (63m), Rodri, Gelson Martins, Diego Costa (59m, the current one), Vitolo, Kevin Gameiro, Gaitan, Jackson Martinez (managed to offload him to China), Savic, Carrasco, Griezmann, Falcao.
Savic was fine, Falcao, Griezmann and Rodri were great and the rest have been duds. They've fetched a great price for some of their players but recruitment is poor when they are desperate to fill in a position. All of their successes are players that have gotten a lot of time. Home grown players and players who were bought young (basically home grown). I don't know what quality they have in their youth team so unless something comes from there I don't see another trophy in the near future form them.
They will be back, they had an off night last night.
The biggest issue with Atletico is they don't know any other way of playing, even against inferior opposition they seem to defend for dear life and hope to snatch it. I would have loved to have seen them have a real go at Leipzig last night, instead they played for a one nil, snatch and grab.
They should put more trust in their attacking players.
The biggest issue with Atletico is they don't know any other way of playing, even against inferior opposition they seem to defend for dear life and hope to snatch it. I would have loved to have seen them have a real go at Leipzig last night, instead they played for a one nil, snatch and grab.
They should put more trust in their attacking players.
There is no they. It is solely on Diego Simeone. Atletico Madrid are no longer some small club that has no talent. They have a great squad with great talent that can play a far more expansive game. He can coach no other way and the only other top team I can see him going to is Inter Milan. He is a great defensive coach and arguably the greatest of his ilk in that regard, but that is where I draw the line.
Yeah I feel Inter will be his next destination too. He's a very good manager but his stock was definitely higher a-few years ago.
Isn't the highlighted in bold, combined with the club's league standing and net spend, testament to the club being well-run under Simeone?
I agree that they probably aren't going to win another trophy outside of a miraculous cup run in the near future but is that really the primary goal for the club? It seems to me they have their way of working, just like Dortmund or Spurs (also Ajax, Benfica, Porto less the trophies being easier to obtain) and their opportunities for success are going to be limited.
All teams buy some duds, it's natural given the commodities are human beings. That list above is full of players (aside from Costa pt.2) with enormous resale potential providing they develop as hoped so you can see that there's a method to their purchases.
Is there another manager in world football that has had 7+ seasons of top 3 finishes in a top league with a £0 net transfer budget? I'd wager Pochettino did a great job for 2-3 seasons but ultimately hasn't come close to what Simeone has done.
I've really fallen into a rabbit hole here, defending a manager for a team I don't actually care for, but anyway: It seems that since Ferguson retired Atletico have won 1x La Liga, 1x Europa League, 1x Supercopa, 1x Europa League, 1x Super Cup. They're also currently 4th in the UEFA co-efficient ranking behind Real Madrid, Barcelona and Bayern Munich. Guy's a miracle worker!
Atletico Madrid used to be like Everton a bit. Would have mass spending every summer but would end up 7th or 8th. They had some very good players in the later part of the 2000s. After Torres went to Liverpool they spent the money on Aguero and Forlan but in those days just qualifying for champions league group stages was a success.
They have been very consistant every since Simeone came in but I do feel in last 2 years things have stagnated a little but seems he's content to stay there given he's a god to the fans and has a pretty good salary.
Inter Milan is an obvious link. Only club I could see him coming to manage in the prem would be Chelsea.
They have been very consistant every since Simeone came in but I do feel in last 2 years things have stagnated a little but seems he's content to stay there given he's a god to the fans and has a pretty good salary.
Inter Milan is an obvious link. Only club I could see him coming to manage in the prem would be Chelsea.
He needs to move still a top manager.
Never rated him. He has good players and can play good football but decides to play like that.
when they turned it on, they actually looked good and dangerous, but why wait until your one down. This guy gets kudos because he's done a good job, however, If that was Ole that did that first half performance, we'd crucify him and rightly so. That game was theirs for the taking. As others say the underdog tag he gets labelled with, is played out now, he's spending big boy money and still double points of the top of the Spanish table and has been last 3 seasons.Might be a case of he needs a new project, but like Wolves manager, he's definitely a good tactical manager but that's hard to watch esp when you consider the talent they have in their ranks.
They have went under the radar but they have spent a lot of money over the past few years. Costa, Morata, Lemar and Felix cost a lot and non are outstanding successes. So I would say it's not a lack of ambition but some poor transfers.
Recency bias is something that we all fall into, yet it still surprises me that so many of the pundits who praised Simeone after Atleti won 3-2 at Anfield suddenly think he is past it.
As with a lot of things the truth is between extremes. Simeone is a superb man manager who inspires loyalty from his players and passion from his club's supporters. He is also an excellent tactician when it comes to drilling a side defensively to shut down games. It does not always work, as last night's game shows, but it works more often than not.
Should his sides be more attacking? Maybe. However, the levels they've achieved over the past decade are not built on that. Its hard to say whether opening up more would allow Atleti to retain the structure and discipline that they've relied on to make themselves competitive against Madrid and Barcelona.
As with a lot of things the truth is between extremes. Simeone is a superb man manager who inspires loyalty from his players and passion from his club's supporters. He is also an excellent tactician when it comes to drilling a side defensively to shut down games. It does not always work, as last night's game shows, but it works more often than not.
Should his sides be more attacking? Maybe. However, the levels they've achieved over the past decade are not built on that. Its hard to say whether opening up more would allow Atleti to retain the structure and discipline that they've relied on to make themselves competitive against Madrid and Barcelona.
One defensive manager in Mourinho was bad enough, if we had Simeone I think i'd have to stop watching all together.
Winning is important but if it comes at a price of no entertainment then count me out.
Maybe Simeone feels he has to play this way against Barca/Madrid as it's the only way to beat them, but against other teams in Europe you have to be more proactive.
Winning is important but if it comes at a price of no entertainment then count me out.
Maybe Simeone feels he has to play this way against Barca/Madrid as it's the only way to beat them, but against other teams in Europe you have to be more proactive.
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This response though.
I guess that's what Conte was wanting from Inter's board ?Makes sense given what he's done for the club.Tweet
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This response though.
He was far too negative against a team with less resources and it cost him, but he has been remarkable with Atletico. He has put them on a whole different tier as a club. A serious danger to any team in the world.
I think with regards to his wage, Atletico know fully well how relevant and competitive he has made them and want to hang on to that.
One of the big reasons they have 200 million on the bench is the long CL runs he has given them basically every season since he arrived.
Third best team in Spain, but in the top group with Barcelona and Real, way above the traditional chaser group now. And the powers that be want to stay there.
I think with regards to his wage, Atletico know fully well how relevant and competitive he has made them and want to hang on to that.
One of the big reasons they have 200 million on the bench is the long CL runs he has given them basically every season since he arrived.
Third best team in Spain, but in the top group with Barcelona and Real, way above the traditional chaser group now. And the powers that be want to stay there.
Transfers are only part of it and Simeone has nothing to do with purchases and sales. If anything it's not well run on his part as few of the signings have been a success. What they have is a very expensive squad that doesn't look likely to win anything. He hasn't got 7 seasons of 0 net spend either. Half of the money came from sales last summer the the squad he won the league with. In the league winning season David Villa was the only real contributer of the players that he brought in. His transfers have been overall very bad. You look at 0 net spend, I see huge sales of players that haven't been replaced. Villa was fine and Griezmann was great but other than that he's spent around 200m on strikers that aren't very good. Many of them he sold again. That's a lot of signing on fees and agent fees not being counted. He's not really signed midfielders because they've been home growned. His wingers come and go with Correa being the only mainstay and because of his tactics it doesn't matter a whole lot who plays in defense. It's much easier for a defender to defend when the whole team is defending.
I'm not familiar with the transfer spend of other clubs. Jardim finished 1st, 2nd and 3rd in his 4 seasons with Monaco, 2 cup runners up, 2 cup semi final and a CL semi final on something like +150m net spend.
Gasperini has spent 162.61m and net spend is +60m in his 4 seasons which have 3 top 4 finishes and he's not close to having a top 10 wage bill either or is spending 120m on a single player. The play football that's not only watchable but desirable.
Klopp is an obvious answer. Wages about the same as Atlético, good transfer dealings. Trophies. In England you've got City, Chelsea, United, Liverpool, Arsenal with big wage bills and Spurs not far behind. I'm not familiar with the difference in Italy or Germany.
Aren't many other managers that have been more than 4 seasons at a club. La Liga isn't like the Premier League where you got many rich clubs. Atlético have double the wage bill of Sevilla and Valencia who are the next team in Spain, triple that of Villarreal who are 6th and is like the bottom 8 teams in the league combined. It's not a fair league. They are basically Wenger's Arsenal towards the end of Wenger's career where the focus was on top 4 but there wasn't much likelihood of a trophy.
Try to look at Simeone's 2012-16 vs Simeone 2016-20 (he joined the middle of his first season so dismiss that). Huge difference. I get that it's harder to win the league as Real and Barca have spent even more but in the same way it's also not harder as when he did win the league Barca and Real were quite good and now Messi is older and Ronaldo is gone. His squad is more expensive now but worse. Just a lot of wrongs in the last few years and still the same awful football. At some point people will have enough.
In what world?
Nothing wrong with Simone. Been too long with Atletico. Would be fantastic having him in the PL. I'd take him in tomorrow at utd. Doesn't mean I'm against Ole though.
In the fantastic RedCafe wonderland, you never know where banter is separated from delusion.In what world?
The banter is really good over here but delusion is at Imperial level, only a couple of centuries late.
No thanks. We already had the anti football manager in Jose, would be a terrible fit for Utd.
Trophies. Europa League and two cups vs Europa League.In what world?
Uh? 1 league title, 1 europa league, 1 spanish supercup, 1 european supercup, vs 1 fa cup, 1 league cup, 1 community shield and 1 europa league
Got the dates mixed up, thought they won it 12-13. I don't count Supercups as titles.
But they are
Simeone is like Wenger at Arsenal when United and Chelsea were the best teams in Europe (except that he won one league title).
Clearly outperforming given resources, but also not showing that he could perform at a higher level in a team which demands more.
Atletico board are obviously (and correctly) happy to hold on to him as long as he keeps delivering top 3 in the league (similar to Wenger's top 4 trophy).
Clearly outperforming given resources, but also not showing that he could perform at a higher level in a team which demands more.
Atletico board are obviously (and correctly) happy to hold on to him as long as he keeps delivering top 3 in the league (similar to Wenger's top 4 trophy).
And similarly now Simeone is entering a period Real/Barca are weakening (a bit like Chelsea post 11 and United post Fergie and City not really a super team at that point).
Wenger really should have capitalised on a relitevely weak league around 13-16 and won a title (or the very least strongly challenged for one) but he seemed content sticking with mere top 4. Simeone should be looking to capitalise on what is appearing to be sticky times ahead for the big two, especially in Barca's case.
They might win La Liga again, but I would never want him as our manager. He's done impressive work. But seeing all that talent and they playing like West Brom must be awful to watch every week.
He's a brilliant manager but I think when trying to take the incentive in games in Europe, he fails quite badly. The tighter the game and when he can frustrate teams, he's a genius at it but in Europe, you need more going forwards and his tactics doesn't allow that.
Saying that, I wouldn't rule Atletico going to Stamford Bridge and winning
Saying that, I wouldn't rule Atletico going to Stamford Bridge and winning
So are a lot of friendlies in summer. I never bother to remember their names even, but I’m sure you have the full overview if a Title is a Title is a Title?
BBC Sport just did an article on how much more attacking he is playing this season with a preferred 3-5-2 over his usual two banks of 4.
That not the case? I don’t watch La Liga.
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/56154118
He's a massive game raiser. I didn't watch the game but I'm suprised by the comments of those who watch it. I thought they would be fighting tooth and nail.
Last year I just 'knew' that that his team would be a match up nightmare for Liverpool and so it proved. When they lost to RB, I wasn't suprised at all.
He and they thrive on the siege mentality. When the pressure is more even or there's more onus on them to perform, they crack a little.
Will be interesting to see the Stamford Bridge game..
Last year I just 'knew' that that his team would be a match up nightmare for Liverpool and so it proved. When they lost to RB, I wasn't suprised at all.
He and they thrive on the siege mentality. When the pressure is more even or there's more onus on them to perform, they crack a little.
Will be interesting to see the Stamford Bridge game..