Ole's regression in instilling big game mentality

VP89

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We are playing against a back 5 and Kante. We are lucky to get any scoring chances at all. Imagine if we lined up so negatively???
They didn't line up negatively though because they had more possession, more shots, more shots on target and the best chances of the game.

A back 5 doesn't always mean it's negative on outlook, it's sometimes a system managers use to control the game their way in possession. Tuchel has used this in most his games for Chelsea to great effect. Conte won the league with Chelsea in a similar manner.
 

wolvored

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I hope we don't rush a new big contract out to ole at the end of the season. He has a year left and I would like to see after a summer transfer window where we are heading first. If we are still playing the same against the big clubs next season then we ain't progressing at all. If he is here next season I would want to be challenging properly for the title, not top 4 again
 

Patchbeard

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On the flip side, we've now conceded 1 goal in 6 games against the 'big 6', and that only happened due to a silly individual mistake by Pogba. Even Mourinho wasn't that good at parking the bus.

*I also don't think he's actually been parking the bus, but has been pragmatic since the Spurs game and been seriously let down by our forwards this season. The only thing that has shown any signs of being clinical is Cavani's head, and he's been injured for most of the big games. There's only so much Ole can do, with some better finishing we would've have won quite a few of these games (thinking A vs Arsenal/Liverpool/Chelsea here, the H games vs Arsenal/Chelsea/City I can't remember many chances off the top of my head so Ole has to take some flack for those).
 

Tallis

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If you're the owners; do you back a manager who managed to spend 150M+ on players who don't fit the managers own 'system' or do you hedge your bets whilst you consider replacing them 12 months later? (If I was the owners, I'd extend that argument to Woodward too and put the man on a damned leash.)

They seem to trust Butt or whoever is identifying these young players like Diallo more than they do OGS.
I am surprised you think the board hold Ole solely responsible for Maguire. We were trying to sign him before Ole became manager.
 
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Skills

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Tbh, I think a lot of last season's wins in these games felt like really lucky smash and grabs. This season feels like a correction.
 

Rightnr

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Even more hilarious how you keep making the same post day in, day out.

"I've said it on this forum time and again" yeah no shit, even a blind man has seen you present your entirely worthless opinion as fact at this point.
It's people like you that won't stop me making the same point because you like to pass judgement as if you have some divine right to say whose opinion matters or not.

Couldn't care less what some top red wannabe thinks of valid criticism of this subpar manager.
 

GazTheLegend

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Tbh, I think a lot of last season's wins in these games felt like really lucky smash and grabs. This season feels like a correction.
Isn't that basically how ANY game against the other members of the top 4 go? I think a lot of members on this forum are completely deluded, to be honest. You can say "oh we haven't beaten any of the top 4!", but you can also say "we haven't lost to any of the top 4!" either this season. And we have beaten, within the last year, Manchester City in the league (Scott McTominays goal), Liverpool in the FA cup, Leicester away (to secure 3rd last season), PSG, Leipzig, Sociedad etc etc. It's just the way it goes sometimes. You need either a referees decision to go in your favour, or to take your chances when you get them.

We simply haven't been clinical enough, that's the truth. This season, Martial and Greenwood have both misfired - badly. Rashford hasn't put in the same numbers he did last season. And Bruno seems to be taking on a lot of the responsibility for us winning games. We need our front three to offer a LOT more. If we DO get a goal, we absolutely OBLITERATE teams on the counter-attack, but making that breakthrough is proving to be a problem.

Didn't think I'd say this but without Cavani in the team, we simply don't look like we've got the firepower to take on the big boys.
 

RUCK4444

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I can understand some being upset with the result but the approach was quite positive, we pressed well with intent.

A point away to them is still a decent result, we wasted chances (again) to win a game, forwards have been poor all season.

Missed some added quality from Pogba, as we usually do whenever Bruno is being marked out of the game.
 

Dante

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It's not regression, it's progression.

Last couple of seasons, we've sat back super deep and hit every top team on the counter. That's worked because we have lots of pace, but it's not a long term strategy.

The reason this is progress is because Ole trying to make us a team that always plays on the front foot. Despite some of our results, you can't deny that we're trying to impose ourselves on matches more we used to.

If Manchester United want to make the step up, we can't be a team that code switches between big team mentality and small team mentality every few weeks. We'll get better the more we practise it. Even if that means more 0-0 draws in the short term. These are the growing pains of a side that's potentially on the cusp.
 

Lewnited

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He just seems to be a pragmatist, from a similar school of thought as the likes of Jose, Conte, Allegri etc. We won't 'go for it' if the risk is high, irrespective of the reward. The first 45 against Chelsea yesterday is the closest I've seen us this season to going for it, and even then we reverted to type in the second half.

I don't even think being a pragmatist is a negative trait in isolation, the priority first and foremost is winning football matches. Our league performances against City and Chelsea last season were pragmatic but still enjoyable because:
1. We won
2. We got to witness some pretty great displays of counter attacking football

The problem now is that it doesn't feel like we're going for it and we're not winning these games. I don't care if our approach to these games is pragmatic or if we set out to dominate the ball and take the initiative, what I need to see more than anything is that we're setting out with a plan to win. Right now it seems we're setting out to not lose, and maybe nick a result where possible.

Blaming the players is all well and good, but we're asking them to produce a result from one and maybe two key moments in a game. No matter what our style of play is, we need to be producing more moments than that. Prime Lewandowski doesn't score for us up top yesterday.
 

VP89

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It's not regression, it's progression.

Last couple of seasons, we've sat back super deep and hit every top team on the counter. That's worked because we have lots of pace, but it's not a long term strategy.

The reason this is progress is because Ole trying to make us a team that always plays on the front foot. Despite some of our results, you can't deny that we're trying to impose ourselves on matches more we used to.

If Manchester United want to make the step up, we can't be a team that code switches between big team mentality and small team mentality every few weeks. We'll get better the more we practise it. Even if that means more 0-0 draws in the short term. These are the growing pains of a side that's potentially on the cusp.
It's not progression though.

We had more shots on target vs Liverpool last season and same possession as this season.
We have evens possession vs Arsenal in November when we lost 1-0 and didn't stamp any more authority than the defeat a season prior. The same goes for the 0-0 this season we had a bit more possession but didn't make any more a stamp on the game itself compared to the November fixture this year, or last season's fixture (where we had 51% possession anyway).

Vs Chelsea yesterday we had 43% possession yesterday and 50% in the reverse under Lampard. Compare that to the season before it's actually very similar, you're looking at margins of a difference with the exception of more potency in the season prior.

We also got spanked by Spurs and the Leicester match this season was not dissimilar to the possession of last season (you're looking at 41% vs 46% which is not exactly material).

There is no way you can look at the games this season against bigger sides and claim it's progression. We might not be operating as deep but we are still too cautious to get anything meaningful by way of a collective points tally from them, especially when you consider certain games (Arsenal, Chelsea reverse, Liverpool currently) didn't even warrant being anywhere near as passive as we were last season.

You have to also remember that last season we actually played big teams at poorer times when they were on rampant form and we were not so, like Liverpool or City last season. This season we actually played a a couple big teams at the best possible time when they looked like trash, e.g. Liverpool/Arsenal and failed to capitalize in any meaningful manner outside of deciding "we won't defend as deep anymore".
 

devilish

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If you're the owners; do you back a manager who managed to spend 150M+ on players who don't fit the managers own 'system' or do you hedge your bets whilst you consider replacing them 12 months later? (If I was the owners, I'd extend that argument to Woodward too and put the man on a damned leash.)

They seem to trust Butt or whoever is identifying these young players like Diallo more than they do OGS.
it seems to me that the manager isn't trusted to spend the money as he sees fit. Meanwhile he refuses to give the signings made to him a fair crack of the whip. That can end in two ways ie either the manager & the club grow up and start acting like adults or else Ole will be shown the door.

United should have their administrative side in order with experienced football men taking football decisions at all levels.
 

Tarrou

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most of our good results came from sitting back and playing on the break whilst riding our luck

yesterday we actually played on the front foot more than we did in any big six game last season, played a high-line and pressed high up the pitch

we're still not very good in these games, but we haven't regressed since last season
 

VP89

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most of our good results came from sitting back and playing on the break whilst riding our luck

yesterday we actually played on the front foot more than we did in any big six game last season, played a high-line and pressed high up the pitch

we're still not very good in these games, but we haven't regressed since last season
We have regressed and the results don't really lie about that either - yesterday's first 45 minutes was actually an exception to the rule. Our possession and stamp on bigger games is not dissimilar this season compared to last season.
 

Shark

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We are still so disjointed both in basic passing movements and in the final third. People can go on about "fine margins" in these top 6 games all they want but even against a poor Arsenal in January we couldn't manage a goal or performance.
 
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Adcuth

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We are still so disjointed both in basic passing movements and in the final third. People can go on about "fine margins" in these top 6 games all they want but even against a poor Arsenal in January we couldn't manage a goal or performance.
Were still a few players short of being capable of being competitive in most of the big games. We're not sturdy at the back consistently which means we can't set up the midfield in a way that would help us control and attack in a way which we'd all like us to. 2 or 3 players in the right mould are needed before we can properly set the team up without having to worry about staying tighter first and foremost.
 

Betson

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most of our good results came from sitting back and playing on the break whilst riding our luck

yesterday we actually played on the front foot more than we did in any big six game last season, played a high-line and pressed high up the pitch

we're still not very good in these games, but we haven't regressed since last season

We played more on the front foot than usual but I thought we still lacked a real ambition to win the game , we are a reactive team. We don't really make things happen like top teams do , if we get as chance on the break then we go for it but other than that we seem more than happy to let a game fizzle out into a draw.

It was the same yesterday for the the final quarter , Chelsea took more risks and looked and looked like they wanted it (the win)more , we looked more content to settle for a draw.
 

CM

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We haven't been good enough in the big games in general this season but we're also lacking the quality to make the difference this season. McTominay and Fred in midfield won't win us those games, same with guys like Dan James.

Yesterday we had no Pogba or Cavani either. We need more creativity in the side and another forward.
 

romufc

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It is weird how Ole outers always find a way of finding something that makes it a big deal.

Last season, it was we can't always park the bus, we are Manutd we should attack.

This season, we have pressed higher, still the same critcisms.

There has clearly been an improvement in the performances against the top clubs, its not down to Ole's tactics purely that we have failed to win.

Vs Arsenal, Cavani had 2/3 good chances and fluffled them
Vs Liverpool, we have 2/3 very good chances which we should have scored
Vs City, we only had 1/2 moments.

Are we expecting to create loads of chances in these big games?

Chelsea have conceded 2 goals under Tuchel, its not easy.
 

SadlerMUFC

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They didn't line up negatively though because they had more possession, more shots, more shots on target and the best chances of the game.

A back 5 doesn't always mean it's negative on outlook, it's sometimes a system managers use to control the game their way in possession. Tuchel has used this in most his games for Chelsea to great effect. Conte won the league with Chelsea in a similar manner.
So possession means positive....got it
 

ThreeCorners

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Our strikers this season just haven't been as clinical this season. Sometimes in these big games, it takes a true moment of quality from your players to win it.
Also, I think teams have figured us out a bit. Stop Bruno and we're toothless.

And those who say "we are Manchester United, we need to attack" really need to read this.
https://www.skysports.com/football/...guson-way-in-big-games-pitch-to-post-analysis

Fergie always kept games tight against the big teams, and our away record to title contenders was never great.
 

bucky

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Do you think Ole sets up his team to control the game, and it's just the players are not good enough? Because I'm pretty sure Ole has no intent to keep the ball, that's why the team is so stretched all the time. Yesterday it seemed like we tried to progress the ball from our goal to opposition goal with maximum of 3 passes.

We're not playing only counter attacking football for sure but in the games like Chelsea, we seem to be happy for opposition to keep the ball. We don't even try to get a grip of the game.

This is just lazy explanation of blaming two players who are doing fine job this season.
If Ole wanted us to to control the game he wouldn't set us up the way he does (top haevy with 4 forwards staying high up the pitch).
Do you think that for every game or only against better teams? Because there is a difference. If you think Ole has no intent to keep the ball regardless of the opposition, then I don't think there's any point in arguing. Against better teams he's pragmatic and doesn't mind giving up possession, but that's also due to his player personnel, if he had Scholes, Keane or Carrick it would be different story. If you think Fred and McTominay are good enough to dominate a team like Chelsea, City or Liverpool through possession then I don't know what to tell you. They simply aren't, they are good at other things though.

Both teams pressed really well yesterday, saying we didn't try to get a grip of the game is not what I saw.

You honestly think Fred and McTominay can do what Henderson and Fabinho are doing for Liverpool, Rodri and Gundogan for City, what Kovacic has been doing for Chelsea since Tuchel arrived, Kroos for Madrid, Kimmich for Munich, etc.? Because that's the caliber of players we need to dominate those teams via possession. Pogba is the closest we have to that sort of player, Matic is past his prime. To you second point, regarding the forwards; what else is he supposed to do with the attacking players he has? None of them are like Grealish, players that recycle possession further forward, all are more risk takers, including Bruno.
 

VP89

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So possession means positive....got it
You didn't read the post, clearly.

Let's try again - possession plus creating the best chances of the game plus making more proactive subs earlier demonstrates more intent to win than to sit back and defend.
 

owlo

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it seems to me that the manager isn't trusted to spend the money as he sees fit. Meanwhile he refuses to give the signings made to him a fair crack of the whip. That can end in two ways ie either the manager & the club grow up and start acting like adults or else Ole will be shown the door.

United should have their administrative side in order with experienced football men taking football decisions at all levels.
In every (most?) club, there's a big element of the club buys the players, and the manager utilises them. Very few get their own way. (Even Klopp and Pep don't). There's no real evidence that communication has broken down between the manager and the executive though, simply that the executive has reined him in a little more and made their own decisions. (Cavani, VDB, Diallo etc).

We've tried for ages simply letting the manager dictate the players bought, and it's worked horribly. I think this summer was the first with a somewhat different direction. That said, all evidence shows our executive is incompetent too as this should have happened LONG ago and our player identification seems trash.

For some reason the Glazers are happy with the status quo. If you or I were the owner, both Woodward and Ole would have been shown the door long ago. City have shown what good executive decision making with a similar level of investment can do. But we seem happy to coast along into oblivion....

tldr: I can't really blame OGS for the lack of transfers, but I can't really blame the owners for going their own way and not fully backing/trusting him either. I wouldn't.
 

Eternitiy

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Do you think Ole sets up his team to control the game, and it's just the players are not good enough? Because I'm pretty sure Ole has no intent to keep the ball, that's why the team is so stretched all the time. Yesterday it seemed like we tried to progress the ball from our goal to opposition goal with maximum of 3 passes.

We're not playing only counter attacking football for sure but in the games like Chelsea, we seem to be happy for opposition to keep the ball. We don't even try to get a grip of the game.

This is just lazy explanation of blaming two players who are doing fine job this season. If Ole wanted us to to control the game he wouldn't set us up the way he does (top haevy with 4 forwards staying high up the pitch).
Then you have to ask yourself, are his tactics correct? Look at our record against other top sides in the Premier League this season, it's truly embarrassing.
 

devilish

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In every (most?) club, there's a big element of the club buys the players, and the manager utilises them. Very few get their own way. (Even Klopp and Pep don't). There's no real evidence that communication has broken down between the manager and the executive though, simply that the executive has reined him in a little more and made their own decisions. (Cavani, VDB, Diallo etc).

We've tried for ages simply letting the manager dictate the players bought, and it's worked horribly. I think this summer was the first with a somewhat different direction. That said, all evidence shows our executive is incompetent too as this should have happened LONG ago and our player identification seems trash.

For some reason the Glazers are happy with the status quo. If you or I were the owner, both Woodward and Ole would have been shown the door long ago. City have shown what good executive decision making with a similar level of investment can do. But we seem happy to coast along into oblivion....

tldr: I can't really blame OGS for the lack of transfers, but I can't really blame the owners for going their own way and not fully backing/trusting him either. I wouldn't.
Most clubs allow football people to take football decisions. There's usually a structure with people at board level (Rummenigge, VDS, Nedved, Marotta etc) hiring DOFs (Ragnick, Campos, Paratici etc). Together they take football decisions like hiring scouts, managers etc. Such situation tend to bring people with like minded ideas together. The fact that we're often talking about experienced football people who had been successful in what they do tend to promote a comfortable environment were the manager can focus on his job without feeling that he'll be screwed.

United lack that. We've got a hot potch which is made up by business men (Woodward, Judge etc) taking football decisions. These business people are aided from the remnants from a multitude of administrations (Phelan is Sir Alex's, Bout whose LVG's, Carrick and Mckenna who were promoted by Mou and retained by Ole etc). United had adopted this strange but predictable strategy were they first appease the manager with whatever he wants irrespective of how silly it sounds only to tighten the purse once its evident that the money spent by the manager based on his limit knowledge of the transfer market. You can't really blame the manager on that as managers have their job to do and can't scout hundreds of players from god know how many leagues.

Anyway, such strategy tend to create a rift between the different factions with the manager often feeling betrayed by the club for not supporting him and for listening to somebody else instead (ex scouts). That's problematic as ultimately the formation is chosen by the manager and managers can decide not to play the players they hasn't given their thumbs up to. That might explain why Mou didn't play Fred, why Ole is having trouble with playing VDB and why Diallo was kept on the bench for most of the Sociedad game despite we had the game wrapped 4-0 in the previous leg.

Unlike your good self I blame everyone. I blame the owners for not insisting on having the best football men taking football decisions and I also blame Ole for not trusting his scouts. He can't expect United to keep buying average defenders at 80m a pop simply because he followed them on telly. Scouts can find some great bargains on the cheap and Ole should either trust them or return to Molde.
 
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Thiagoal

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Until Ole gets a fast, dominant centre back that he trusts then we’ll continue to be passive and hope for a moment or magic against the ‘big teams’
 

Borys

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Do you think that for every game or only against better teams? Because there is a difference. If you think Ole has no intent to keep the ball regardless of the opposition, then I don't think there's any point in arguing.
We're talking about "big games" in this thread, but more often than not I feel like we are too direct. It's been a bit better lately I admit, but whenever I see us being 1 goal ahead I think any sane manager would rather add another midfielder (to get more control of the game) than keep 3/4 strikers at all cost on the pitch- strikers which do not work hard enough in general. This is a mistake from Ole, and he does it almost every time.

You honestly think Fred and McTominay can do what Henderson and Fabinho are doing for Liverpool, Rodri and Gundogan for City, what Kovacic has been doing for Chelsea since Tuchel arrived, Kroos for Madrid, Kimmich for Munich, etc.? Because that's the caliber of players we need to dominate those teams via possession. Pogba is the closest we have to that sort of player, Matic is past his prime. To you second point, regarding the forwards; what else is he supposed to do with the attacking players he has? None of them are like Grealish, players that recycle possession further forward, all are more risk takers, including Bruno.
I agree but there is a different way, I know it sounds crazy but some teams play more than two man in midfield, especially if they want to have more control of the game, keep the ball better, and beat pressing.

Playing front line in which 3 out of 4 forwards are way out of form (and the 4th is Daniel James) and wait to get that one chance doesn't seem to be working for us.

Then you have to ask yourself, are his tactics correct? Look at our record against other top sides in the Premier League this season, it's truly embarrassing.
Well I've been asking this question for a while. I don't think we should be going so top heavy with so many strikers out of form, it makes no sense.
 

Lee565

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The effect that 6-1 defeat to spurs on ole's mentality reminds me of the effect that 5-3 loss to Leicester under van gaal where after that match he went far more conservative there on in.
 

SadlerMUFC

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You didn't read the post, clearly.

Let's try again - possession plus creating the best chances of the game plus making more proactive subs earlier demonstrates more intent to win than to sit back and defend.
Chances were even pretty much even. They had some and we had some. Neither capitalized. And with a blatant penalty not given to us I'd say we were the team more disappointed about not getting 3 points. But tell me again...who was the home team and which team had a back 5 plus Kante?

I really don't understand why some MUFC "supporters" are so biased against MUFC :lol: :lol: :lol:
 

Bilbo

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It's not regression, it's progression.

Last couple of seasons, we've sat back super deep and hit every top team on the counter. That's worked because we have lots of pace, but it's not a long term strategy.

The reason this is progress is because Ole trying to make us a team that always plays on the front foot. Despite some of our results, you can't deny that we're trying to impose ourselves on matches more we used to.

If Manchester United want to make the step up, we can't be a team that code switches between big team mentality and small team mentality every few weeks. We'll get better the more we practise it. Even if that means more 0-0 draws in the short term. These are the growing pains of a side that's potentially on the cusp.
Yes. Good post
 

Bilbo

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The effect that 6-1 defeat to spurs on ole's mentality reminds me of the effect that 5-3 loss to Leicester under van gaal where after that match he went far more conservative there on in.
I've seen this said a lot lately and I don't really agree that the Spurs result has had any long lasting impact on how we approach a game. The team were miles off the pace at that point. We didn't lose that game for tactical reasons.
 

MileStolar

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What a terrible fecking post, not even worth addressing your points when you're wishing someone would consider suicide as if that's something to joke about

Fecking ridiculous
Well if you think I'm literally wishing someone suicide contemplation that's a tad bit daft from you, It's a hyperbole used to describe the feeling you get when you watch Mourinho football. Don't be a literal fool on internet where there are plenty of sarcasm and cynicism, you'll get hurt, and it wont be someone else's fault. Have a good day.
 

Oldtraffordboy

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Don't know who still needs to hear this, but we were positive yesterday. High line, and a very aggressive press.
 

VP89

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Chances were even pretty much even. They had some and we had some. Neither capitalized. And with a blatant penalty not given to us I'd say we were the team more disappointed about not getting 3 points. But tell me again...who was the home team and which team had a back 5 plus Kante?

I really don't understand why some MUFC "supporters" are so biased against MUFC :lol: :lol: :lol:
No, they weren't even. That's a pile of wank and it's shown in the XG stat and other stats. Even if you watch the game and recall the big open play moments - CHO skimmed the post with his pot shot, Ziyech had a shot saved from very close range by DDG, Giroud was inches away from a heading from point blank range and McTominay needed a last ditch tackle to block Mount's efforts. We had no such clear cut chance at any point in the match.

You can talk all you want about having a back 5 plus Kante to try and insinuate that they were defensive, but they weren't. They had evens possession, more shots (18 vs 11), more shots on target (6 vs 4), more chance creation and a greater XG (https://understat.com/match/14685). Moreover a defensive approach goes against his proactive substitutions made earlier than Ole's (Pulisic at the hour mark followed by Werner when Martial came on).


The way the game went, and the statistics themselves both show that you are chatting out of your arse in insinuating Chelsea set up to defend. All you can say is "back 5+ Kante" without actually looking at the system in practise and how the game was played. There is nothing "bias" in my views of the game or my club but there is a clear United bias in yours. Get your rose tinted glasses off and accept Chelsea were not defensive. You are wrong in virtually every aspect of that.
 
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croadyman

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Were still a few players short of being capable of being competitive in most of the big games. We're not sturdy at the back consistently which means we can't set up the midfield in a way that would help us control and attack in a way which we'd all like us to. 2 or 3 players in the right mould are needed before we can properly set the team up without having to worry about staying tighter first and foremost.
Yeah and fully expect to still be a few players short when the summer window closes, so that will mean yet again we have to set up in the same way in these games next season and those frustrations will be evident
 

croadyman

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In every (most?) club, there's a big element of the club buys the players, and the manager utilises them. Very few get their own way. (Even Klopp and Pep don't). There's no real evidence that communication has broken down between the manager and the executive though, simply that the executive has reined him in a little more and made their own decisions. (Cavani, VDB, Diallo etc).

We've tried for ages simply letting the manager dictate the players bought, and it's worked horribly. I think this summer was the first with a somewhat different direction. That said, all evidence shows our executive is incompetent too as this should have happened LONG ago and our player identification seems trash.

For some reason the Glazers are happy with the status quo. If you or I were the owner, both Woodward and Ole would have been shown the door long ago. City have shown what good executive decision making with a similar level of investment can do. But we seem happy to coast along into oblivion....

tldr: I can't really blame OGS for the lack of transfers, but I can't really blame the owners for going their own way and not fully backing/trusting him either. I wouldn't.
That toy story puppet should never have been given Gill's job and unfortunately he then went on to bring in his uni mate who clearly hasn't got any clue whatsoever when it comes to negotiating contracts, lets not forget he is the reason why DDG, Jones & Matic are on long term contracts for stupid money.