Ole's regression in instilling big game mentality

[tomaldinho1]

I’m not sure about the post title but Ole is the first manager where I genuinely feel expectations have regressed and I really dislike it.

Mou and LVG were brought in to win the title and challenge everywhere. It didn’t work but the bar was always high. Now it is different and the feel around the team is different - Ole only has to make top four - we went out of the CL in the group stages and it was seen as a set back but EL is fine, there’s a real sense when you strip it back and forget the emotional attachment we have to this team there’s real evidence that we’re starting to slide into that top four challenger/EL club bracket that might have a plucky run in the CL every few years.

 

[Borys]

Jokes aside, I agree we've been a but tepid against the big boys. We've lacked a cutting edge but I don't put that down to the manager solely.

It looks like we try a little too hard to play round the opposition, like we respect them too much. We're much better at being more direct so maybe more of that?

Can we be more direct? It seems like we've taken that approach to extreme.

We don’t have the goods. Tactics will only take you so far - the owners fecked us in the summer.

Bingo. He’s got us hanging in there. This is flat out the most he’s going to get out of this team. Should we have done better in big games? They’ve all looked very even to me apart from Spurs. We just don’t have that last bit of quality or confidence to get the job done in tight games.

This team has not reached its potential. Far from it. But you need proper coaching for that.
Many players have improved, but the team as a collective has declined. We can be much better.

Do you tgink all of Rashford, Martial and Greenwood declined overnight? We will be buying new Frontline strikers every summer.

 

[VP89]

What about us? Greenwood just missing the top corner, McTominay and Bruno messing up simple passes to send through James and Rashford. A blatant penalty not given. We were well in it for the win today. Not Ole's fault our attackers choked when chances were there. But you can't really expect a lot. It's two good teams playing each other. We need to take our chances when they come...

My gripe is with the second 45 today, not the first. As I said again in the OP you can take each game in isolation and provide context to it. Bad luck, shit ref, poor final pass. But when it happens in the vast majority of crunch games there's a wider problem at hand. It's not just bad luck every time.

Against city I remember saying we were dull and they could have been taken, others said nope it's fine we needed confidence and caution after losing to Leipzig.

After Liverpool I said again we were too passive and others said nope, Pogba had a good chance and it's anfield, etc.

And even in this thread there are posts suggesting we were unlucky because we created the best chances in some of those games. It's all true, but my point is that we are dropping big points against big teams and it's not a good mark of mentality for where we are aiming to be.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Can we be more direct? It seems like we've taken that approach to extreme.




This team has not reached its potential. Far from it. But you need proper coaching for that.
Many players have improved, but the team as a collective has declined. We can be much better.

Do you tgink all of Rashford, Martial and Greenwood declined overnight? We will be buying new Frontline strikers every summer.

This is the sad truth. The caf always blames the players but it’s completely illogical that they can all be regressing or so out of form.

Chelsea are going to be a perfect case study. They have a very similar squad to us and a similar amount of depth - they have a rookie manager and sacked him and have now brought in a highly regarded coach. If they finish the season in the top four watch how those players who were so average for Lampard are suddenly described as amazing by the caf, how Tuchel had an easy job and how Ole needs to be backed. I hope they fall away and sack him but already they are better at pressing than us and he’s been there about 5 weeks.

 

[big rons sovereign]

Before I start on this - feck off if you think this is blindly bashing the manager, he's done good job all things considered this season, and we are in good position in the league at the moment. But like all managers, Ole will also be held to account, and this is something I've thought about for a while. I wanted to defer my opinion until after this match to see if something were to change from today.

In our games vs the traditional top 6, we've been absolutely passive against Liverpool, City, Chelsea (reverse), second 45 vs Chelsea today, and Arsenal (x2). We've mustered what a 0-0 vs Arsenal, City, Liverpool and Chelsea twice whilst being spanked by Spurs. Our only goal in these big games have been in a 6-1 drubbing to Spurs and we haven't scored a single one from open play.

I took exception that the soak and counter approach was the right approach in many of these games, I felt we should have been more bold vs Chelsea at OT, vs Liverpool when they were dogshite, vs and Arsenal both times. I've seen Ole make changes far too late which tells me where his intention lies - today for example Tuchel would bring on Pulisic earlier and look to Werner later on. Ole didn't bother with Martial until 70-75 minutes and left it as is.

Although choking in semi-finals is just bad luck in isolation, it's still undoubtedly going toward a weak mentality when we have big games when you consider how torrid our form is this season in such games.

Our record vs top 6 worked last season because our fast counters under Ole was still a surprise factor. But teams are smarter to it now and will just nullify us. Today for the first 45 I thought OK, this game looks completely different to the others so maybe he's changing it, but the shitness of the second half just made it obvious that he was happy to settle.

Was it right to maybe settle for a draw today? Perhaps - losing would have put Chelsea 3 points behind us. Was it right to settle for a draw vs City earlier? Perhaps. Liverpool at Anfield? For me given how they were, no, but you can see the other side.

But, to play so passively for large portions of every game against the top 6 is not what we are about. It's not even a quality thing, we have players who can do damage, who can hurt teams but we play like we're too fecking scared to go at teams now.

If we played in our previous big games like how we did in the first half against Chelsea today, we'd have undoubtedly clocked up 6-9 more points than we have. But I look back on a large sample size of "big" games and can only really deduce 45 minutes of proactive football taking the game to the opponent. And it's not good enough - he needs to address this.

Oh look a thread to bash the manager with.
Not many of those around.....
I'm not having a pop, it's just we all know where this is gonna go.

 

[El Zoido]

I've said it on this forum time and again, the man is a coward.

He doesn't have the balls to go for it and he doesn't have the mental fortitude to make big decisions in dropping players or selecting a starting 11 based on performances and not based on who's on his personal birthday invite list.

He's also a coward because he knows that going for the win, instead of playing a bore 0-0 and making sure top 4 doesn't slip, will give him a few more seasons in a job where he's got no right being in based on his previous achievements.

I am so done with this negative approach and selecting Championship players like James and others like McTominay who's better suited for the rugby field. The former should not be at our club and the latter should be a bench option at attacking midfield and has no place in the middle of the park.

Biggest load of shite I’ve ever read. Absolute dribble from start to finish.

 

[big rons sovereign]

I've said it on this forum time and again, the man is a coward.

He doesn't have the balls to go for it and he doesn't have the mental fortitude to make big decisions in dropping players or selecting a starting 11 based on performances and not based on who's on his personal birthday invite list.

He's also a coward because he knows that going for the win, instead of playing a bore 0-0 and making sure top 4 doesn't slip, will give him a few more seasons in a job where he's got no right being in based on his previous achievements.

I am so done with this negative approach and selecting Championship players like James and others like McTominay who's better suited for the rugby field. The former should not be at our club and the latter should be a bench option at attacking midfield and has no place in the middle of the park.

You're really boring.
Go support city.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

What tactics were we using to win today’s game? We were incredibly passive. Happy to just survive. It’s been the same in all of Ole’s big games and it’s cost us time and again. When good teams don’t leave oceans of space we don’t score. Op is right.

it hasn6t been the same in all of oles big games, most of the big games this half a season yes but he has been here 2 full seasons and a bit

 

[Gavinb33]

Chelsea play almost Van Gaal like football, they have got away with it for a few weeks now by pinching wins by the odd goal, I never felt unduly worried today or in the lead up to the game. They play 5 defenders and 2 holding midfielders to dominate poession without actually doing much with it.

Todays result wasn't about Ole, it was about the personnel we had to play, if Pogba was fit I believe that is a different result.

We have also got 12 more points than last season where we won a lot of games against the 'big 6' thats is more important than winning the odd 'big 6' game this season to me because that's a truer sign of progression rather than looking at one off games look at the table the points total and where we are as a team.

 

[Will Singh]

As frustrating as it is to see us play out like we did today vs Chelsea and the other top teams. I’m totally not against it as Ole said today the objection is a clean sheet which is a must but at the other end we do need that bit of luck. If we can take points like today from the top 6 sides and yes we will need wins then surely that’s good? I think we need to win all the other games where we lost or drew against lesser sides and that’s where our priority should be!

 

[Rampant Red Rodriguez]

This tired team is really good and it's going to get better as a unit + smart additions.

 

[Green_Red]

We need a striker, a CB, and a right winger. Same as we needed at the start of the season. Ole doing as well as he can, if not better. Don't think there's any reason to panic, I think he is the man for the job. He just needs backing this summer to take the next step.

 

[VP89]

Oh look a thread to bash the manager with.
Not many of those around.....
I'm not having a pop, it's just we all know where this is gonna go.

Actually this has been broadly a balanced thread with posters giving respectable views on both sides without trying to accuse Ole of being a shit manager. There isolated idiot posts but they'd come up in any thread.

Managers aren't free from criticism you know, even SAF did wrong things, there was a ridiculously long thread about zombie like passing in his time. It's not a manager bashing thread but just a prolonged issue we saw for a period.

 

[croadyman]

I think that Spurs hammering has left a similar scar on Ole and the players to what we saw when it happened against City under Fergie in 2011, it's clear to me we aren't going out with an intention to win any of the remaining big six clashes if we hold on to this lead over the chasing pack.

 

[Striker10]

we're not only second cause of our form in big games. mentality is everything.

 

[Tom Cato]

When is the parade?

No need for one, just feel that is a very impressive run of games on the road without defeat. Best since its inception in 1878

 

[bucky]

Not that difficult to explain why it may appear that way. We don't have the central midfielders to control possession, same for our centrebacks and attacking players. Maguire is decent at it, so is Lindelof, but they could be better. None of Rashford, Martial, Greenwood, Bruno or Cavani can do it, they aren't that type of player. Which is why signing Grealish and/or Sancho would be important, as well as an actual central midfielder who controls the game with his passing. On top of that teams are obviously wary of our counter-attacks.

 

[Rightnr]

What a load of bitter bollocks.

Biggest load of shite I’ve ever read. Absolute dribble from start to finish.

You're really boring.
Go support city.

It's quite hilarious how I can make a ten-line manual of the top red response to my posts. Critical thinking is just not something you people do.

The fact you cannot see the forest for the trees when, if this was Mourinho or LvG, you'd be calling for his head, just exposes how some of you are lead so easily by the nose.

Also, I won't 'shut up and put up' because I've actually got eyes and can make up my own mind without keeping to some dumbass rhetoric pushed down by Manchester United Plc and their representative in the media.

 

[big rons sovereign]

It's quite hilarious how I can make a ten-line manual of the top red response to my posts. Critical thinking is just not something you people do.

The fact you cannot see the forest for the trees when, if this was Mourinho or LvG, you'd be calling for his head, just exposes how some of you are lead so easily by the nose.

Also, I won't 'shut up and put up' because I've actually got eyes and can make up my own mind without keeping to some dumbass rhetoric pushed down by Manchester United Plc and their representative in the media.

Good grief. A classic case of projection.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Forget big games, we aren't a dominant and imposing football team in general. We're a hard working unit that hits you with quick breaks and in some seasons it will get you decent results against bigger teams and other times it will drab stuff like this season.

For me it's not good enough. In terms of ambition and entertainment this is barely a Manchester United team.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Not that difficult to explain why it may appear that way. We don't have the central midfielders to control possession, same for our centrebacks and attacking players. Maguire is decent at it, so is Lindelof, but they could be better. None of Rashford, Martial, Greenwood, Bruno or Cavani can do it, they aren't that type of player. Which is why signing Grealish and/or Sancho would be important, as well as an actual central midfielder who controls the game with his passing. On top of that teams are obviously wary of our counter-attacks.

If the manager truly valued possession he would have ensured we signed a CM somewhere among his 250 million pounds of total spend. Just so we aren't stuck with playing Mctominay every week who passes about as well as Vidic used to.

 

[bucky]

If the manager truly valued possession he would have ensured we signed a CM somewhere among his 250 million pounds of total spend. Just so we aren't stuck with playing Mctominay every week who passes about as well as Vidic used to.

He did sign a CM that's supposedly good at it. This line of thinking that he only wants us to play counter-attacking football is absolute nonsense.

 

[MileStolar]

He's always been full Jose. Barely a fag packet between their preferred football styles.

Fans like you deserve to have Jose as their manager and enjoy suicide contemplation after every match played. Some people far too easily forget the mire we were in for 6 years.... We're getting better, and we still need at least 3 first team players to be a proper team and that's because we lost half our team(Martial, Greenwood, Rashford in terms of goal contribution) to bad form.

 

[Teja]

If anything, I think it's an improvement in expectations that a 0-0 draw away to Chelsea is not considered good enough these days.

 

[Eternitiy]

Not that difficult to explain why it may appear that way. We don't have the central midfielders to control possession, same for our centrebacks and attacking players. Maguire is decent at it, so is Lindelof, but they could be better. None of Rashford, Martial, Greenwood, Bruno or Cavani can do it, they aren't that type of player. Which is why signing Grealish and/or Sancho would be important, as well as an actual central midfielder who controls the game with his passing. On top of that teams are obviously wary of our counter-attacks.

Yes, this is a huge issue.

McTominay and Fred are not good enough in possession. The one midfielder we have with competency is Pogba, but he cannot be relied upon for much of the season due to his injuries and inconsistency.

 

[Womp]

Fans like you deserve to have Jose as their manager and enjoy suicide contemplation after every match played. Some people far too easily forget the mire we were in for 6 years.... We're getting better, and we still need at least 3 first team players to be a proper team and that's because we lost half our team(Martial, Greenwood, Rashford in terms of goal contribution) to bad form.

What a terrible fecking post, not even worth addressing your points when you're wishing someone would consider suicide as if that's something to joke about

Fecking ridiculous

 

[SadlerMUFC]

My gripe is with the second 45 today, not the first. As I said again in the OP you can take each game in isolation and provide context to it. Bad luck, shit ref, poor final pass. But when it happens in the vast majority of crunch games there's a wider problem at hand. It's not just bad luck every time.

Against city I remember saying we were dull and they could have been taken, others said nope it's fine we needed confidence and caution after losing to Leipzig.

After Liverpool I said again we were too passive and others said nope, Pogba had a good chance and it's anfield, etc.

And even in this thread there are posts suggesting we were unlucky because we created the best chances in some of those games. It's all true, but my point is that we are dropping big points against big teams and it's not a good mark of mentality for where we are aiming to be.

We are playing against a back 5 and Kante. We are lucky to get any scoring chances at all. Imagine if we lined up so negatively???

 

[hungrywing]

This is when some historical-stats wizard waltzes in with SAF's point totals against the top six by season.

And then another comes in with last season's averaged stats against the top six vs this season's.

 

[reddevilz007]

People have to stop blaming the players. If we play like a mess, it’s because the coaching staff is incompetent, that’s it that’s all. The talent is there, just badly exploited.

Take a look at Stevie G’s Rangers or Xavi’s Al Sadd. Is the talent even comparable to our squad? Not at all. But yet they play as team, they have a system of play.

Did Ole’s Molde play like that? Not even close. You can’t even find some highlights of his Molde’s team because there was nothing exciting to show aside for Haaland.

Even our current squad can’t even dominate like Xavi’s or Gerrard’s team against bottom league teams. We’ve even set-up for counter-attack during some of those matches, which is embarassing.

The point is, we have been terrible at finding a modern, progressive attacking minded manager.

LVG was all about keeping ball without doing much, Moyes was predictable with his thousands of crosses per game, Mourinho’s stint with us and Spurs show that his counter-attacking methods are outdated.

 

[hobbers]

We have so little quality on the ball and no attacking game plan whatsoever, other than trying to nick goals on the counter, so it's no surprise really.

Rashford had another stinker today and it was maybe one of Bruno's worst games in a United shirt. Greenwood had a really good first half but tired. Beyond that we had zero quality with the ball from the right flank (par for the course for the last 7 years) and two sitting midfielders offering next to no composure or creativity.

It's the same story with the defence and our abysmal defensive record this season. Both caused by a combination of not having the right players, and everything else - a mix of shite/absent coaching, iffy team selections and poor in-game management.

 

[Sir Alex Ferguson]

Ole doesnt have the tactical nous against big teams. So he takes the defensive approach playing for a draw and if a win comes, so be it.

this is further exemplified by 4 semi-final defeats where he has been outcoached as well as crashing out of the CL at hands of Leipzig

 

[Tallis]

I am happy to get so many quotes in the thread

There have been various rebuttals to my post so will try to address them here:

1. Our track record against big teams was great last season so why so poor now:

Clearly, the big teams are playing differently against us - much more cautiously vs last season when we would hit them on the break. Our record in the cup games against big teams is not bad - we have beaten PSG, Liverpool, Sociedad etc but in the league, people have been very cautious against us. Even Pep played defensively against us which tells you how teams are setting against us. We needed to take the next step in the last window by buying a Sancho or a Grealish etc to give us another dimension. Pogba being injured doesnt help obviously.

2.Mediocrity is acceptable under Ole but wasn’t under MOU / LVG:

This one is more subjective but I fee Ole is building something for the future even if the results are not there at this time. Besides, I don’t think sacking managers will solve the issues we have. So I am willing to be patient and let the team improve incrementally. Was anyone asking MOU to be sacked when we were 2nd ? I wasn’t.

3. We have great players / squad and Ole’s tactics are holding them back:

I don’t buy this argument at all. We finished 3rd last season and everyone thought our squad needed investment. Chelsea spent 220 mm. We bought Cavani (who great as he is, cannot play every game). DVB - I guess we could blame Ole for that. If you look at where we are vs when Ole took over - we have Bruno, DVB, AWB, Macguire, and a pre retirement Cavani as additions. The rest are kids or punts for the future. All our rivals have bought too in this time - Spurs, Arsenal have matched our spending. Why should we have the right to beat everyone with all the deficiencies in our squad ?

This fantasy about how changing the manager is the only thing between us and winning the league is pure naivety.

 

[NewGlory]

We don’t have the goods. Tactics will only take you so far - the owners fecked us in the summer.

This. 100% this. We do not have a striker and our midfield is missing a world class player. Had we had Cavani and Pogba today, we would have eaten Chelsea alive, but all we had was Martial and Greenwood, both in dogshite form and DvB that was bought to be a sub for Bruno and Pogba but isn't good enough to sub even Fred.

It's hard to blame Ole for buying DvB. Donny is a genuinely talented player who was showing great potential in Champions League. There was no reason to assume that DvB purchase was not going to be another win like the purchase of Bruno. But shit happens.

If players are not delivering and the ones that can are injured, there is only so much any manager can do. We know Ole can beat Tuchel even when Tuchel is managing PSG, let alone this lousy Chelsea team. Ole is not the problem

 

[Bebestation]

For me this is more about Martial & Greenwood's lack of form this season.

2/3rd of our front line is crap right now compared to last. We can see the difference when Cavani enters that it gives us a boost even if it changes the style of football we play because Cavani isnt woefully out of form. Bruno Fernandes isnt this new unknown player within our tactics and it's harder for him to pull out the good at the moment.

Finally our RW is still dead. Relying on James instead of Sancho who we didnt Go for and Amad who is still being hidden for growth.

 

[Borys]

Not that difficult to explain why it may appear that way. We don't have the central midfielders to control possession, same for our centrebacks and attacking players. Maguire is decent at it, so is Lindelof, but they could be better. None of Rashford, Martial, Greenwood, Bruno or Cavani can do it, they aren't that type of player. Which is why signing Grealish and/or Sancho would be important, as well as an actual central midfielder who controls the game with his passing. On top of that teams are obviously wary of our counter-attacks.

Do you think Ole sets up his team to control the game, and it's just the players are not good enough? Because I'm pretty sure Ole has no intent to keep the ball, that's why the team is so stretched all the time. Yesterday it seemed like we tried to progress the ball from our goal to opposition goal with maximum of 3 passes.

He did sign a CM that's supposedly good at it. This line of thinking that he only wants us to play counter-attacking football is absolute nonsense.

We're not playing only counter attacking football for sure but in the games like Chelsea, we seem to be happy for opposition to keep the ball. We don't even try to get a grip of the game.

Yes, this is a huge issue.

McTominay and Fred are not good enough in possession. The one midfielder we have with competency is Pogba, but he cannot be relied upon for much of the season due to his injuries and inconsistency.

This is just lazy explanation of blaming two players who are doing fine job this season. If Ole wanted us to to control the game he wouldn't set us up the way he does (top haevy with 4 forwards staying high up the pitch).

 

[devilish]

It's usually somewhere in the middle. The coaching can and must do better. Defence is usually badly organized, choosing Maguire over Bruno as captain is almost criminal and Ole seem clueless when plan A doesn't work out. However we should have backed him better this summer and he's certainly not the type of manager who seem happy if the club bring him an alternative player to what he wants.

 

[owlo]

It's usually somewhere in the middle. The coaching can and must do better. Defence is usually badly organized, choosing Maguire over Bruno as captain is almost criminal and Ole seem clueless when plan A doesn't work out. However we should have backed him better this summer and he's certainly not the type of manager who seem happy if the club bring him an alternative player to what he wants.

If you're the owners; do you back a manager who managed to spend 150M+ on players who don't fit the managers own 'system' or do you hedge your bets whilst you consider replacing them 12 months later? (If I was the owners, I'd extend that argument to Woodward too and put the man on a damned leash.)

They seem to trust Butt or whoever is identifying these young players like Diallo more than they do OGS.

 

[RashysTekkers]

People have to stop blaming the players. If we play like a mess, it’s because the coaching staff is incompetent, that’s it that’s all. The talent is there, just badly exploited.

Take a look at Stevie G’s Rangers or Xavi’s Al Sadd. Is the talent even comparable to our squad? Not at all. But yet they play as team, they have a system of play.

Did Ole’s Molde play like that? Not even close. You can’t even find some highlights of his Molde’s team because there was nothing exciting to show aside for Haaland.

Even our current squad can’t even dominate like Xavi’s or Gerrard’s team against bottom league teams. We’ve even set-up for counter-attack during some of those matches, which is embarassing.

The point is, we have been terrible at finding a modern, progressive attacking minded manager.

LVG was all about keeping ball without doing much, Moyes was predictable with his thousands of crosses per game, Mourinho’s stint with us and Spurs show that his counter-attacking methods are outdated.

 

[Halftrack]

It's quite hilarious how I can make a ten-line manual of the top red response to my posts. Critical thinking is just not something you people do.

The fact you cannot see the forest for the trees when, if this was Mourinho or LvG, you'd be calling for his head, just exposes how some of you are lead so easily by the nose.

Also, I won't 'shut up and put up' because I've actually got eyes and can make up my own mind without keeping to some dumbass rhetoric pushed down by Manchester United Plc and their representative in the media.

Even more hilarious how you keep making the same post day in, day out.

"I've said it on this forum time and again" yeah no shit, even a blind man has seen you present your entirely worthless opinion as fact at this point.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

I know people are pointing to the Spurs result but could we instead look at the PSG tie at old Trafford? We actually approached that game like a big team, played well, were proactive but ultimately failed to take our chances and got beaten on the day. I still maintain it was one of our best showings of the season and really we should have walked away with the result. Maybe Ole looked at that and realised we don’t have the lethal finishing to put the best teams away so instead it’s better to sacrifice some attack to keep clean sheets.

Personally I think at times this season he’s taken that too far and we haven’t been brave enough. Chelsea are not a great side and we should have been putting them in their place yesterday.