I was thinking the same thing, what a player. But the problem would be he'd fit into the same primary slot as Fred, Pogba, DVB and McT. He's clearly not a holding midfielder, nor a no 10. Might make sense if we end up selling Pogba I guess.
McFred is the worst midfield 2 of the PL’s top 10 teams
- Thread starter RashyForPM
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Oh yes, I forgot about the coach. I wonder if fans who use covid as a reasoning actually believe we have not been impacted. Considering we will have played alot of games by the end of the season.
We have been impacted worse than anyone else. Nobody had as short a summer break or pre-season as we did. At least not in England.
I agree, yet the narrative is we are second because everyone else is shit and covid...
Fans are quick to dish out negative comments. It feels like you need the perfect player in each position to be successful.
People have forgotten what made us so successful in the past. Yes, the likes of Ronaldo, Vidic, Scholes, Rooney were amazing players but the squad needed Oshea, Brown, Fletcher, Park and the like to become successful.
Pogba has barely played and in most big games he wasn't in Central midfield. I don't remember losing a midfield battle in a big game apart from the 6-1.
Thank you. McFred are not world class but do a very good job in the PL. Contrary to popular belief it will actually be quite hard to sign a player that would easily improve on them. It seems like our fans like players that play for other teams as they mostly notice the good things. Game in game out most players will not stand under the light of this scrutiny.
They're great for certain games.
When you look at our poor results this season since going top, they've all been against teams that have sat back. When McTominay and Fred are the ones we rely on to help break teams down, we struggle. They almost become facilitators.
Wan-Bissaka has nowhere to go? Knock it to Scott, he passes to Fred, Fred goes wide, we go again from that side. Ad infinitum.
With someone like Pogba in the team we make the middle of the pitch a lot more dangerous and that makes better space out wide.
In those games in the future it has to be Pogba plus one of McTom or Fred, and we need to sign another creative mid as well to cover for an injured/leaving Pogba.
When you look at our poor results this season since going top, they've all been against teams that have sat back. When McTominay and Fred are the ones we rely on to help break teams down, we struggle. They almost become facilitators.
Wan-Bissaka has nowhere to go? Knock it to Scott, he passes to Fred, Fred goes wide, we go again from that side. Ad infinitum.
With someone like Pogba in the team we make the middle of the pitch a lot more dangerous and that makes better space out wide.
In those games in the future it has to be Pogba plus one of McTom or Fred, and we need to sign another creative mid as well to cover for an injured/leaving Pogba.
The caf will love them because they run around a lot, McTominay especially because he’s got that British passport & came through the academy, which means double points on here. Neither are good enough though. McTominay is a decent squad player. I’d sell & upgrade on Fred.
The overall skillset of a McTominay/Fred partnership lacks, yes, but together as a unit, they function very well together for the purpose of this current United team.
Rodri Gundogan
Fred McTominay
Ndidi Tielemans
Kante Kovacic
Soucek Rice
Fabinho Thiago
Allan Doucouré
Højbjerg Ndombele
Luiz McGinn
Partey Xhaka
Where would you rank the McFred sandwich compared to the rest of the top 10?
Fred McTominay
Ndidi Tielemans
Kante Kovacic
Soucek Rice
Fabinho Thiago
Allan Doucouré
Højbjerg Ndombele
Luiz McGinn
Partey Xhaka
Where would you rank the McFred sandwich compared to the rest of the top 10?
Probably 5th but this isn't a fair comparison as these are the other teams first choice duo and McFred isn't ours. That's Pogba and one of McFred.
Rodri and Gundogan play more with KDB and are supported by inside fullbacks like Cancelo - City's team shape and tactics supplement their "two central midfielders"
Ndidi and Tielemans are good in their setup, but I don't know how Tielemans would fare if he's responsible for more of the pitch around him as Leicester play with a back 3/5
Kante and Kovacic have played with a back 3/5 and the team presses - Kovacic is a better passer than McTominay, but this duo is similar to how Fred and McTominay function
Soucek and Rice are similar in function. Wouldn't mind Rice, but he'd be too expensive and McTominay will be allowed to develop as Rice has been doing at West Ham
Fabinho and Thiago usually are paired with another CM like Henderson or Wijnaldum, so that's not a central midfield duo like McTominay and Fred
Allan and Doucoure aren't a better pairing than Fred and McTominay - might pass a little better, but not better overall
Hojbjerg isn't always paired with Ndombele, it's usually Sissoko or Winks. Hojbjerg is tidy and disciplined, like a larger and tatted up version of Winks. Ndombele is good, but he's not functioning like a Fred or McTominay.
Luiz and McGinn are nice, but off the ball they aren't better than Fred and McTominay.
Partey and Xhaka....Xhaka is bad and a poor leader.
Overall, I'd put McFred bang in the middle. But with Pogba and Fred, Pogba and McTominay, or Pogba and a well rested Matic, it's a top 3 duo on it's own. McTominay and Matic are the weakest pairing with Pogba because one doesn't pass well or have good enough vision (McTominay) and the other doesn't get around the pitch as well for 90 minutes (Matic). Pogba's been a different player since his Arsenal penalty and after he got over Covid and worked his way into fitness. There's a spark and willingness and effort off the ball he's given on a more consistent basis. It was very evident before he got injured against Everton.
Must mean that Daniel James is better than Maddison and Mount then!
Great overview, and agree with your conclusions.
Right. It's much easier to make your judgment seem reasonable, including to yourself, if you assume that opposing views reflect nothing more than simple-mindedness and prejudice. Funnily, I can't recall any posters arguing that these are good players because they run a lot, or making a point of McTominay being a British academy player. It's almost like they have other reasons for thinking more highly of McFred than you. Can this be?
Any of those play behind a 10? This is such a weird thread to make, it takes tactics etc and throws them out the window. How many of these duos works behind Bruno and Pogba? Is it even a midfield 2 at that stage?
What do people see when they watch Rice play football honestly? He appears to be like Gattuso and Pirlo rolled into one in some people's eyes 
If we play mctoninay and Fred together, I think we need Pogba/VDB and Bruno starting too. I think we'd need to play with 2 more in so we can have extra offensive quality in the midfield since Fred and mctominay are more defensive.
so basically play like a 4-3-1-2. Or a 4-2-2-2.
4-3-3 with an out of position RW and only 1 midfielder that's great on the ball is probably not the best way to get the most out of our players
so basically play like a 4-3-1-2. Or a 4-2-2-2.
4-3-3 with an out of position RW and only 1 midfielder that's great on the ball is probably not the best way to get the most out of our players
Well for us he will give us the ability to only play one Dm.What do people see when they watch Rice play football honestly? He appears to be like Gattuso and Pirlo rolled into one in some people's eyes
Right now we play two make shift ones in McTominay and Fred which is detrimental more times than not.
Wether it's rice or not it's a step we need to take. McFred won't get you to the top of world football.
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Does he though? Yeah for sure he's a good defender (because he's a defender playing in midfield) but they play him next to either Soucek or Noble, both pretty defensive players. Plus there's a no.10 ahead of them so...is he a one man midfield in defence? I'm not so sure. And he's thoroughly average in attack, that's for sure.
That's just how West Ham play. I think so.
Put it this way defensively he is way more solid than McT or Fred. Fred's positioning is just too erratic.
As long as we don't have a new DM we will be stuck playing McFred together it seems.
And that is holding us back.
Bruno Rice Pogba sounds a whole lot better to me. But if there are other DMs that could do the job in all for it. If we weren't selling Lingard to West Ham I probably wouldn't consider Rice due to his price but with Lingard we have some leverage.
Excellent post.
And I would say your assessment is right, which in short is we win most of the games we dominate, but I think the sense of us struggling from teams that deploy a low block tactics stem from the fact that most of the points we dropped this season came from teams that sat back and we dominated them in possession.
So perhaps it's just that we dropped around 12 points to teams we dominated is an issue that might explain why we are behind city, but I believe that's not enough justification of why we are behind city, there are further issues to be resolved and areas to be improved.
On the topic, I 100% disagree that most of the top 10 teams starting 2 CMs are better than Mcfred, only the ones in City and Liverpool are better, the Liecester duo are only slightly better. The rest, Mcfred are the better pair ( Partey and Kante as individuals are better)
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Well, no.
For draws and losses, 5 were against teams who dominated us for possession, 6 were against teams where we dominated possession and 2 came in matches where possession was pretty even. So, no clear pattern there one way or the other.Pogba and McTominay is worse than Fred & McTominay. McTominay isn't a defensive player and just gets in Pogba's way when they play together in the middle.
Were stagnant and stale with those two paired together , we rely on. Moments of individual brilliance to get a goal,I'm not Pogbas biggest fan but we look alot more creative and dangerous with another creative pivot on the pitch
We need a midfielder who can defend but look after the ball and create better than Fred and Mctominay both who give it away a lot and don't have Pogbas passing range.
Kessie looks after the ball very well, very tidy in possesion. So does Van de Beek but the lads never had a run in the team.
We need a midfielder who can defend but look after the ball and create better than Fred and Mctominay both who give it away a lot and don't have Pogbas passing range.
Kessie looks after the ball very well, very tidy in possesion. So does Van de Beek but the lads never had a run in the team.
I didn't mean it in terms of a stat that indicates a pattern, but some sort of a general sense where people think we drop points against teams we dominate, hence posters on here commenting that we struggle to breakdown low block defenses, that sense most likely stems from us dropping points against the likes of WBA & Sheffield United.Well, no.
i actually agree with assessment that is based the stats you provided there is no specific pattern.
Edit: i dont think i worded the bolded part in my earlier comment property sorry for the confusion.
Shit thread. None of those other midfielder play in a 2. Get a fecking clue.
No one forced us to play Mc Fred. We could play VDB Pogba.
dont remind me
McTominay is the worst starting midfielder in the top 10 teams *
We could, but we would lose. No idea why anyone thinks that partnership would work when neither of those players have shown they can be the defensive one in a midfield 2 and VDB in particular has shown nothing to suggest he's good enough.
Even Pep doesn't play with a midfield without at least one absolutely killer defensive midfielder.
Wow Ole must be the best coach on the planet to have this team 2nd then.
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By that token we should be comparing the bolded with Pogba & Bruno, no?
Something definitely doesn't add up. We have a shit goalkeeper, shit right back, shit CBs, shit CM, shit striker, no RW, a politician at LW and a PE teacher for a manager yet we're second in the league.
Made a mistake there. Gundogan-Rodri.
I don't see the difference. MCT is a box to box midfielder, Pogba is a box to box midfielder. Fred is a central midfielder and VDB is a central midfielder.
McTominay is better defensively than Pogba. From the very little we've seen of VDB, Fred is far superior defensively.
McFred is a very defensive midfield duo. Pogba and VDB would be really quite attacking.
I can't disagree, but I wouldn't mind seeing that "attacking midfield duo" against weaker teams instead of the "defensive midfield" duo. Specially in games where we are clear favourites.
Having just watched City/Everton, i'm struggling to see why anyone would swap Allan and Andre Gomes for McFred, who i think are Everton's first choice CM? I havent looked at either's stats this year, but dont remember either producing much, although the same could be said of Fred.
Interesting, this is my point maybe we're both missing something
Maybe we should burst Rashy's bubble or improve our coaching...