Television Game of Thrones (TV) • The watch has ended

[Sylar]

Happens on Reddit a lot, because it's an easy low effort way to get karma. Especially r/freefolk

"Season 8 was bad Iol" +32k upvotes. Yes we know, well done for your insightful post.

"It should've been ten seasons" +32k upvotes. Great, why not twenty seasons? Care to elaborate on how you would write it for ten seasons? No? Well feck off then.

"D&D kinda forgot about this character (usually Quaithe)" +32 upvotes. Yeah, they forgot about her because she does literally nothing of value throughout the story. She appears in three dream sequences, out of four subsequent books. fecking Moonboy is mentioned more than her.

D&D properly fecked up but they put more effort into the shitshow they gave us than the majority of the complaints that folk have.

Tbf it doesn't happen here as most of those points have been discussed eg how it could be a ten season show

Comparing this place to another is a bit weird

And to vidic point, the ending was bad because of the delivery. Most disnt have a problem with the destination of some of the characters, the issue was the journey

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Yeah it's such a trendy critique. It's like what you'd expect Gwenyth Paltrow to say about it 'oh ya ya got ending so bad ya hahaha'. When people just blase say it had a bad ending it lets me know what kind of person they are on so many levels. I don't want to get drawn into it because it'll upset me but these people don't even see how they turned one of the greatest characters; Sandor Clegane, into some caricature who has lines worthy of a sitcom on comedy central. They butchered my boy.

I'm the same. Sandor, Tormund, even Cersei and Tyrion just became generic fan favourites with a catchphrase that was just missing the canned laughter (Cersei being the uber evil, oh I love to hate her look at how evil she is drinking her wine and cackling at the moon, villain instead).

But I'm going through the books again and it's tiring at times. So many characters who just stand around doing feck all and, if they're lucky, getting a single line of dialogue each chapter. And the repeated phrases....fecking hell. If I read Jaime thinking about Ser Osmund, Lancel and Moonboy ploughing Cersei one more time I'll probably chop off my hand.

The difference, of course, is that I'm going through the books again. I have no interest in returning to the show. Even if GRRM finally releases the last two books and it's just two pieces of paper that, when joined together, show a valyrian steel armoured direwolf riding on the back of Drogon shouting "I'm a dog woof" it'll still be better than the show. Maybe that was the point of the show all along? To temper fan expectations for the books? A ploy as grand as anything in ASOIAF.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Tbf it doesn't happen here as most of those points have been discussed eg how it could be a ten season show

Comparing this place to another is a bit weird

And to vidic point, the ending was bad because of the delivery. Most disnt have a problem with the destination of some of the characters, the issue was the journey

Not sure I compared Reddit to this place?

 

[Mr Pigeon]

To my death I'll still maintain that the last shot of Season 6 was the breaking point for the show, and when it all went to shit. All because they wanted an epic ending to the season.

Cersei has blown up the Sept of Baelor, Jon is King in the North, Dany is coming over with her absolutely ma-hoo-sive army, Theon and Yara are bringing the Iron Fleet to fight for her, and Dorne have also pledged for the Dragon Queen.

It's great as a "ooooh shit! Cersei's gonna be screwed" hype moment. But that's exactly the problem. She is absolutely and totally fecked. The religious fantastics that we know make up a large portion of King's Landing, the poor and downtrodden, the remaining Reachlanders, almost everyone already hates her, and on top of that she's also got to deal with an unstoppable army. At this point they had to go completely against the whole "actions have consequences" cornerstone of the show, and have rational characters start making irrational decisions, just so she wasn't turned to mush in the first 60 minutes.

 

[Vidic_In_Moscow]

To my death I'll still maintain that the last shot of Season 6 was the breaking point for the show, and when it all went to shit. All because they wanted an epic ending to the season.

Cersei has blown up the Sept of Baelor, Jon is King in the North, Dany is coming over with her absolutely ma-hoo-sive army, Theon and Yara are bringing the Iron Fleet to fight for her, and Dorne have also pledged for the Dragon Queen.

It's great as a "ooooh shit! Cersei's gonna be screwed" hype moment. But that's exactly the problem. She is absolutely and totally fecked. The religious fantastics that we know make up a large portion of King's Landing, the poor and downtrodden, the remaining Reachlanders, almost everyone already hates her, and on top of that she's also got to deal with an unstoppable army. At this point they had to go completely against the whole "actions have consequences" cornerstone of the show, and have rational characters start making irrational decisions, just so she wasn't turned to mush in the first 60 minutes.

I'm still hurtin too bro

 

[Sylar]

Not sure I compared Reddit to this place?

True you didn't out right compare it but you did bring up another place with regards to the original point made on the criticism towards the final season?

Unless it was just a rant on another place and you felt it was most apt, then nevermind carry on

 

[Mr Pigeon]

True you didn't out right compare it but you did bring up another place with regards to the original point made on the criticism towards the final season?

Unless it was just a rant on another place and you felt it was most apt, then nevermind carry on

Haha, yeah I was just using it as a springboard for a Reddit rant. I suspected @Vidic_In_Moscow was also talking about general discussions and not about the Caf.

 

[Sylar]

To my death I'll still maintain that the last shot of Season 6 was the breaking point for the show, and when it all went to shit. All because they wanted an epic ending to the season.

Cersei has blown up the Sept of Baelor, Jon is King in the North, Dany is coming over with her absolutely ma-hoo-sive army, Theon and Yara are bringing the Iron Fleet to fight for her, and Dorne have also pledged for the Dragon Queen.

It's great as a "ooooh shit! Cersei's gonna be screwed" hype moment. But that's exactly the problem. She is absolutely and totally fecked. The religious fantastics that we know make up a large portion of King's Landing, the poor and downtrodden, the remaining Reachlanders, almost everyone already hates her, and on top of that she's also got to deal with an unstoppable army. At this point they had to go completely against the whole "actions have consequences" cornerstone of the show, and have rational characters start making irrational decisions, just so she wasn't turned to mush in the first 60 minutes.

I think this is fair especially the last bit with regards to s6. From that shot there was no way cersei had a chance

They could have salvaged it however in s7 with the arrival of the golden company and eurons fleet if he had enough backing (it did seem to grow from s6 to s8)

But that's another issue with consistency. Another of course being the dothraki being wiped then it being 'half wiped out' to then looking like thousands before only a few?

 

[Mr Pigeon]

I think this is fair especially the last bit with regards to s6. From that shot there was no way cersei had a chance

They could have salvaged it however in s7 with the arrival of the golden company and eurons fleet if he had enough backing (it did seem to grow from s6 to s8)

But that's another issue with consistency. Another of course being the dothraki being wiped then it being 'half wiped out' to then looking like thousands before only a few?

Oh, god. It's mad isn't it? I'm waiting for the big exposé in a few years when D&D come out and admit they had dirt on an HBO executive who let them do whatever they want, and they spent the entirety of Season 7 and 8 struggling with multiple drug addictions.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Damnit, I'm watching The Battle of the Bastards again and the bit where Jon is begging Melisandre not to bring him back if he dies again. He says he feels nothing to Sansa. So many missed opportunities for his character and his interactions with Beric. feckity fecking feck. Every time this thread gets bumped...

 

[Salt Bailly]

D&D lost. Sacked from star wars before they could even get started. Poetic justice for these pathetic pricks.

The fans lost. Imagine if we had a season 9 last year and a season 10 in the making this year. It would have eased lockdown pains for millions of people. We would have spent endless hours on insane theories, predictions and discussions.

Pisses me off that we had this one thing uniting the world and none of the decision makers could see the real value it brought to the world.

 

[Sied]

The guy playing Euron was more terrifying in The Investigation and he wasn’t even the bad guy.

Is The Investigation any good? Worth watching?

 

[esmufc07]

Still makes me laugh that their genius plan to gain Cersei’s support was to go over the wall and capture a wight

 

[balaks]

Still makes me laugh that their genius plan to gain Cersei’s support was to go over the wall and capture a wight

What better way to convince people that there is an undead army coming than to produce an undead creature? Seems perfectly reasonable to me. Everybody other than those near the wall didn't know or believe it was a reality.

 

[esmufc07]

What better way to convince people that there is an undead army coming than to produce an undead creature? Seems perfectly reasonable to me. Everybody other than those near the wall didn't know or believe it was a reality.

It was a crap plan. And they should have known that Cersei couldn’t be trusted under any circumstances. Jon was always a bit dim though.

 

[balaks]

It was a crap plan. And they should have known that Cersei couldn’t be trusted under any circumstances. Jon was always a bit dim though.

Well then what would have been a better way to do it? I cant think of one.

 

[UncleBob]

It was insanely overrated to begin with. People just jizzed their pants because it was "different", with main characters being killed off. Certain characters almost consistently escaping death, not so much

 

[Eendracht maakt macht]

It was insanely overrated to begin with. People just jizzed their pants because it was "different", with main characters being killed off. Certain characters almost consistently escaping death, not so much

First four seasons were extremely good. Character development, dialogues, some brilliant acting performances and amazing scenery, costumes etcetera.

 

[UncleBob]

First four seasons were extremely good. Character development, dialogues, some brilliant acting performances and amazing scenery, costumes etcetera.

Nah, first two seasons. Then it went downhill.

 

[balaks]

It was insanely overrated to begin with. People just jizzed their pants because it was "different", with main characters being killed off. Certain characters almost consistently escaping death, not so much

Totally disagree with this - the frustration that some people had with the final season doesn't mean that the show as a whole wasn't absolutely incredible and probably the best TV ever seen.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Totally disagree with this - the frustration that some people had with the final season doesn't mean that the show as a whole wasn't absolutely incredible and probably the best TV ever seen.

Well, that's definitely overrating. There is no way you can compare a show, and I quote the great Ian McShane here, with tits and dragons, to masterpieces like The Wire or The Sopranos, or even something like Mad Men.

I also think it's underrating it to say it wasn't, at its peak, one of TV's great shows. Season's one to four were excellent and the show itself should be remembered for making television a valid space for having movie-esque budgets and battles. Without GoT I don't think we'd be seeing some of the other big budget shows we are now.

So yeah, the answer probably lies somewhere in the middle, season's 1-4, and parts of 5 and 6 should be remembered as top 10 or 20 TV, but it was never anything close to the "best".

 

[balaks]

Well, that's definitely overrating. There is no way you can compare a show, and I quote the great Ian McShane here, with tits and dragons, to masterpieces like The Wire or The Sopranos, or even something like Mad Men.

I also think it's underrating it to say it wasn't, at its peak, one of TV's great shows. Season's one to four were excellent and the show itself should be remembered for making television a valid space for having movie-esque budgets and battles. Without GoT I don't think we'd be seeing some of the other big budget shows we are now.

So yeah, the answer probably lies somewhere in the middle, season's 1-4, and parts of 5 and 6 should be remembered as top 10 or 20 TV, but it was never anything close to the "best".

It was the best for me anyway but then I'm a geek and love fantasy stuff. It is certainly one of the best tv shows of the last decade. In terms of fantasy it's the best tv show ever made though.

 

[Massive Spanner]

It was the best for me anyway but then I'm a geek and love fantasy stuff. It is certainly one of the best tv shows of the last decade. In terms of fantasy it's the best tv show ever made though.

There's not much competition there to be fair!

It has done wonders for the fantasy genre though. I don't think shows like The Witcher or the new LotR series would ever have been made without GoT.

 

[balaks]

There's not much competition there to be fair!

It has done wonders for the fantasy genre though. I don't think shows like The Witcher or the new LotR series would ever have been made without GoT.

Yeah its been brilliant - really interested to see what they do with this new LOTR show they are making. I enjoyed the Witcher too. This and the new Star Wars shows being made - with the incredible Mandalorian as a starter is absolute bliss for a middle aged geek like myself.

 

[sullydnl]

It was insanely overrated to begin with. People just jizzed their pants because it was "different", with main characters being killed off. Certain characters almost consistently escaping death, not so much

The production value was a big deal too, tbf. It broke ground in that sense. Plus it was an increasingly rare week-to-week watercooler TV show in a time of fragmented viewing. Also, tits and dragons.

It was always a flawed TV show though, mostly due to the logistics of adapting from such an unwieldly source. Even in season 1 critics noted the sense that characters were just being wheeled into place for key set-piece scenes and set-ups rather than there being an even flow to the story. And that strain only increased as the story broadened, quickly resulting in the "filler episodes" people so regularly complained about, characters being parked or run through dead-end plot-lines for whole seasons so other storylines could catch-up, characters being able to teleport from location to location as the plot demanded, characters doing seemingly irrational things because the plot demanded it, etc.

The more it went on though the less the big moments payed off and the more stupid the contrivances required to wheel them into place seemed to be.

 

[GDaly95]

Currently watching The Wire and Aidan Gillen has just come into it. He's ropey in this and its reminded me of his performances in GoT.

Very shit

 

[sullydnl]

Currently watching The Wire and Aidan Gillen has just come into it. He's ropey in this and its reminded me of his performances in GoT.

Very shit

At least in The Wire his accent doesn't wander off on a tour of the world's most obscure regions after one season.

 

[UncleBob]

Totally disagree with this - the frustration that some people had with the final season doesn't mean that the show as a whole wasn't absolutely incredible and probably the best TV ever seen.

What?

 

[balaks]

What?

That's just my opinion but for me it absolutely was.

 

[Sylar]

Well, that's definitely overrating. There is no way you can compare a show, and I quote the great Ian McShane here, with tits and dragons, to masterpieces like The Wire or The Sopranos, or even something like Mad Men.

Why not? A lot of people up until and including s6 (and even after s7) had this as their best show ever. How does that make it overrated or wrong for them to have that opinion?

And it's not just fan loving when critics over all were rating the episodes and delivery of the episodes as completely high level
Up until a certain point a lot of people had this as their best show they've seen for a number of reasons and s7 and especially s8 won't take that away?

Oh, god. It's mad isn't it? I'm waiting for the big exposé in a few years when D&D come out and admit they had dirt on an HBO executive who let them do whatever they want, and they spent the entirety of Season 7 and 8 struggling with multiple drug addictions.

It's gonna come to light that they were dared to ruin it or something like that and they went ahead and did

Or they are just arrogant and thought any half arsed shit would fly

 

[Patchbeard]

I read somewhere that the fee per episode for the major actors in seasons 7&8 were pretty fecking substantial. So maybe there was a correlation between rushing the latter stages and the greed of the actors, as if they were paid less per episode then we might have gotten more episodes...

The apparent figures from 2017 for the likes of Cersei, Tyrion, Jamie, Jon Snow, Daenerys was $500k per episode and then apparently they were due to earn over 1m per episode for some season 8 episodes - https://www.businessinsider.com/gam...ries-compared-to-highest-paid-tv-stars-2019-4 When you add in the size of the rest of the cast there was some mammoth outgoings on the wage bill by the end of the show due to their previous successes. Bit like our squad.

 

[Massive Spanner]

I read somewhere that the fee per episode for the major actors in seasons 7&8 were pretty fecking substantial. So maybe there was a correlation between rushing the latter stages and the greed of the actors, as if they were paid less per episode then we might have gotten more episodes...

The apparent figures from 2017 for the likes of Cersei, Tyrion, Jamie, Jon Snow, Daenerys was $500k per episode and then apparently they were due to earn over 1m per episode for some season 8 episodes - https://www.businessinsider.com/gam...ries-compared-to-highest-paid-tv-stars-2019-4 When you add in the size of the rest of the cast there was some mammoth outgoings on the wage bill by the end of the show due to their previous successes. Bit like our squad.

Nah that theory was basically quashed by HBO themselves who said they told D&D they were happy for the show to run for another 3 seasons of 10 episodes. D&D were the ones who decided to end it with 7 and 6 episode seasons.

https://www.joe.ie/movies-tv/hbo-wa...eason-even-longer-made-money-available-668906

Of course, nobody wants to see something they love come to an end and Benioff added that HBO were exactly the same because they were pushing for more episodes.

"HBO would have been happy for the show to keep going, to have more episodes in the final season. We always believed it was about 73 hours, and it will be roughly that. As much as they wanted more, they understood that this is where the story ends," said Benioff.

 

[Patchbeard]

Nah that theory was basically quashed by HBO themselves who said they told D&D they were happy for the show to run for another 3 seasons of 10 episodes. D&D were the ones who decided to end it with 7 and 6 episode seasons.

Okay the actors are redeemed. D&D though

 

[Sylar]

Nah that theory was basically quashed by HBO themselves who said they told D&D they were happy for the show to run for another 3 seasons of 10 episodes. D&D were the ones who decided to end it with 7 and 6 episode seasons.

https://www.joe.ie/movies-tv/hbo-wa...eason-even-longer-made-money-available-668906

Biggest shame they wanted to rush the finale. Or just didn't get writers to do it and just needed to over see it and not be as involved and would still get to adapt the star Wars stuff

 

[Stacks]

Happens on Reddit a lot, because it's an easy low effort way to get karma. Especially r/freefolk

"Season 8 was bad Iol" +32k upvotes. Yes we know, well done for your insightful post.

"It should've been ten seasons" +32k upvotes. Great, why not twenty seasons? Care to elaborate on how you would write it for ten seasons? No? Well feck off then.

"D&D kinda forgot about this character (usually Quaithe)" +32 upvotes. Yeah, they forgot about her because she does literally nothing of value throughout the story. She appears in three dream sequences, out of four subsequent books. fecking Moonboy is mentioned more than her.

D&D properly fecked up but they put more effort into the shitshow they gave us than the majority of the complaints that folk have.

The long night should have been extended for one. Could have a whole season dealing with the white walker invasion since they have been hyped up since the first episode so its bizarre it was over in just one battle. Usually such a big invasion would be a story in an of itself. When those religious zealots got into Kings Landing, they even lasted a season at the capital. The white walkers spent 7 seasons building up an army in the background only to get stopped at the north which was quite funny. Maybe GRMM intended this which I will also criticise when I read winds of winter (hopefully this year) but I felt it a missed opportunity to go into the real terror of the Walkers and talk of the "long winter/night" where we could have seen the impact on Westeros or the change in landscape and battle for survival. In the end it became just a movie.
(I get the special effects are costly so it may not be viable.)

Most of the effort was into special effects and battle sequences which is....cool....I guess. The last 2 seasons were hot trash. I enjoyed the rest of the series. It is almost universally accepted it was trash ending. even the actors seemed dismayed.

Charles Dance (who played Tywin)

“Well if there was a petition, I would sign it. I mean, I saw it. I continued to watch the whole series even after I’d been killed off in the lavatory.

I know that the finale satisfied a lot of people. It also disappointed a lot of people, and I’m afraid I am in the latter camp.”

And for the whole thing to end up as a committee, I just thought, ‘Hmm, no.’ I would say I was somewhat underwhelmed by.”

Coster-Waldau (Jamie Lannister) said, “I was aware of the petition for a new ending, which I thought was hilarious. I almost wanted to donate to that petition.”

Obviously I can only speak for myself and i was thoroughly disappointed. Then I spoke to my closest friends who gave me verification. Then I saw on the internet that this was a hugely shared sentiment. Then the actors themselves have given me further validation so I know I'm not just "hatin".

I still weep

 

[Stacks]

It was insanely overrated to begin with. People just jizzed their pants because it was "different", with main characters being killed off. Certain characters almost consistently escaping death, not so much

No. Some of the acting scenes/dialogue are great and memorable. Go back and watch some key characters best bits. It wasn't overrated at all. Some great characters and performances throughout.

 

[Sparky_Hughes]

That's just my opinion but for me it absolutely was.

Im absolutely with you

 

[muller]

Im absolutely with you

Me too. Still nothing has come close to how much I enjoyed the show. The ending wasnt great, and i'd happily see it remade or extended but I loved the whole thing.

 

[Trequarista10]

Have been rewatching the whole thing from the beginning recently, halfway through season 8 now.

The first 6 seasons were brilliant, I didn't think I could rewatch it and enjoy it knowing how it ends but I have done. Rewatching it I'm not even bothered about the story lines of the last two seasons and the major issues with it that people have beaten to death already. I suppose its cos I know what happens, and no longer care. It's just the dialogue that annoys me. The first six seasons the dialogue was incredible, there'd be one or two absolutely poetic lines an episode, plus just the general conversations were all just perfect. From Season 7 it's like it's been written by a fan trying to mimic the earlier seasons.

 

[Sparky_Hughes]

Me too. Still nothing has come close to how much I enjoyed the show. The ending wasnt great, and i'd happily see it remade or extended but I loved the whole thing.

same here, I think a rewatch might be in order