Two american tourists jailed for 21 years in Italy after killing an undercover policeman

[UweBein]

https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...murdering-italian-policeman-judge-2021-05-05/

Crazy thing, though: The tourists had previously stolen the bag of a dealer who had sold them fake drugs.
Then the dealer went to the police (!) and they set up an undercover operation to retrieve the bag. (What happens usually if you report a stolen bag in Itlay?)

The tourists then attack the undercover policemen because they allegedly thought they were mafiosi.
The undercover policemen were there without any other support and no guns....

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

It was sad to read that the cop who died had his funeral at the same church he got married 6 weeks prior to it. This whole thing sounds bizarre, apart from the two dip shits going from California to Italy and trying to buy coke.

 

[oates]

As much as I love Italy I can't imagine it was easy to find 12 jury members who were completely unaware of the media reported facts leading up to the case or in fact during the trial which would be able to guarantee they were completely unbiased towards two American young men. I'm on the fence tbh. The one lad who did all the stabbing seemed fairly prolific and efficient. On the other hand the dead policeman's wife and friends and family dressed all in black and at times (the widow) crying attended prominently each day of the case.

Shades of Amanda Knox and PR machines anyone?

There are literally loads of appeals available not least on the sentence.

 

[nimic]

On the other hand the dead policeman's wife and friends and family dressed all in black and at times (the widow) crying attended prominently each day of the case.

Shades of Amanda Knox and PR machines anyone?

This seems over the top cynical.

 

[Penna]

They've also been ordered to pay all the trial costs and have to do 2 months in solitary confinement.

edit - @nimic, they were incredibly stupid to try something like this in a foreign country and deserve to go to prison. However, on the other hand there were evidently many inconsistencies in what the other policeman said about it all.

A murder conviction seems harsh as they didn't set out to kill the carabinier. The two Americans said they didn't know they were fighting with police officers, whereas the other policeman involved said they clearly stated that they announced their identity. He said/they said, and of course the police officer will always get the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Deery]

Vicious wee bastard to stab someone 11 times with a 7 inch knife and if they were undercover cops they wouldn’t have being showing a threat to life, got what they deserved.

 

[Solius]

From reading that it sounds like they took a knife to Italy with them and both were aware of it. Add that to getting mixed up in what they did plus stabbing someone 11 times in self defence? I don't have much sympathy for them.

 

[oates]

This seems over the top cynical.

Which part?

I've served on a jury, it is something that is necessary but I can see that it could be quite hard for every jury member to only concentrate on evidence during a case.

Yes, I'm cynical after the Knox case of American PR firms, lawyers and to some extent the American Public to work towards the promotion of Italy being a Banana Republic where their citizens are tried by Italian Justice.

 

[oates]

Vicious wee bastard to stab someone 11 times with a 7 inch knife and if they were undercover cops they wouldn’t have being showing a threat to life, got what they deserved.

Maybe yes, he brought the knife with him from the US, he had it on him. He reportedly had mental and behavioural issues surrounding being attacked himself.

 

[sun_tzu]

The two Americans, who come from California, were also found guilty of attempted extortion, assault, resisting a public official and carrying an attack-style knife without just cause.

Police say Cerciello Rega, 35, was not armed at the time and was stabbed 11 times by Elder with an 18-cm (7-inch) blade that he had brought with him from the United States.

Natale-Hjorth initially told police he had not been involved in the killing and did not know his friend had a knife. However, his fingerprints were found on a panel in the ceiling of their hotel room where the blade had been concealed.

If 2 Italian kids had done that in America I expect they would (dependent on the state) face life in prison... execution... or the police would have killed them on the spot

 

[Siorac]

As much as I love Italy I can't imagine it was easy to find 12 jury members who were completely unaware of the media reported facts leading up to the case or in fact during the trial which would be able to guarantee they were completely unbiased towards two American young men. I'm on the fence tbh. The one lad who did all the stabbing seemed fairly prolific and efficient. On the other hand the dead policeman's wife and friends and family dressed all in black and at times (the widow) crying attended prominently each day of the case.

Shades of Amanda Knox and PR machines anyone?

There are literally loads of appeals available not least on the sentence.

This seems over the top cynical.

Also, they were judged by the Court d'Assise which is made up of eight 'judges', two of them are professional. So it's only six 'jurors', as you'd call it in common law jurisprudence. The court must explain its decision in writing within 90 days; inconsistencies or errors can lead to an annulment. Obviously, that explanation is written by the professional judges so in effect they can't be overruled by the laypeople.

 

[oates]

Also, they were judged by the Court d'Assise which is made up of eight 'judges', two of them are professional. So it's only six 'jurors', as you'd call it in common law jurisprudence. The court must explain its decision in writing within 90 days; inconsistencies or errors can lead to an annulment. Obviously, that explanation is written by the professional judges so in effect they can't be overruled.

Of course, I'd quite forgotten.

 

[nimic]

Which part?

I've served on a jury, it is something that is necessary but I can see that it could be quite hard for every jury member to only concentrate on evidence during a case.

Yes, I'm cynical after the Knox case of American PR firms, lawyers and to some extent the American Public to work towards the promotion of Italy being a Banana Republic where their citizens are tried by Italian Justice.

I was referring to the first part, mainly because I don't think it's out of place for a newly widowed woman to cry at the trial of her late husband's killers. I may have misinterpreted the second comment, I fully agree with the bolded part.

 

[horsechoker]

This case sounds more cast-iron than the Knox one which was just bad police work. Weren't they going about devil worship and things like that?

 

[oates]

I was referring to the first part, mainly because I don't think it's out of place for a newly widowed woman to cry at the trial of her late husband's killers. I may have misinterpreted the second comment, I fully agree with the bolded part.

As I said, I am not sure how easy it is to get a completely unbiased jury and added with other details such as the widow and family plus the colleagues of the dead policeman it all adds up to being influential. You thinking that is cynical, well I want any tourist being tried to get a fair and just trial abroad and I am a natural cynic, you thinking that is over the top doesn't necessarily surprise me. The fact you'd say it, God knows what you truly believe.

 

[oates]

This case sounds more cast-iron than the Knox one which was just bad police work. Weren't they going about devil worship and things like that?

Knox gave a statement suggesting devil worship nonsense and whether that came from her or was fed to her I don't know for sure.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Maybe yes, he brought the knife with him from the US, he had it on him. He reportedly had mental and behavioural issues surrounding being attacked himself.

Which didn’t stop him setting up a meeting with local drug-dealers, not once but twice. The second time after he stole property belonging to the dealer. Not exactly the behaviour of someone who is terrified of confrontation.

 

[oates]

Which didn’t stop him setting up a meeting with local drug-dealers, not once but twice. The second time after he stole property belonging to the dealer. Not exactly the behaviour of someone who is terrified of confrontation.

Perhaps your conclusions were mentioned during the case. Good point.

 

[nimic]

As I said, I am not sure how easy it is to get a completely unbiased jury and added with other details such as the widow and family plus the colleagues of the dead policeman it all adds up to being influential. You thinking that is cynical, well I want any tourist being tried to get a fair and just trial abroad and I am a natural cynic, you thinking that is over the top doesn't necessarily surprise me. The fact you'd say it, God knows what you truly believe.

What the feck are you talking about

Sorry for trying to engage you in discussion, and admitting I may have misinterpreted part of what you were saying.

Also sorry for editing this post without marking it as an edit. I know how much that bothers you.

 

[oates]

What the feck are you talking about

Sorry for trying to engage you in discussion, and admitting I may have misinterpreted part of what you were saying.

Also sorry for editing this post without marking it as an edit. I know how much that bothers you.

Don't be sorry Nimic, it's expected of you

 

[nimic]

Don't be sorry Nimic, it's expected of you

Are you drunk?

 

[oates]

Are you drunk?

House!

 

[nimic]

Which didn’t stop him setting up a meeting with local drug-dealers, not once but twice. The second time after he stole property belonging to the dealer. Not exactly the behaviour of someone who is terrified of confrontation.

To be fair, none of that means he couldn't have had mental issues. Though I certainly agree with your conclusion.

House!

I am genuinely so confused.

 

[Sky1981]

https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2...riel-natale-hjorth-san-francisco-schoolmates/

UPDATE: Vacationing Bay Area Schoolmates Convicted In Slaying Of Italian Police Officer; Sentenced To Life In Prison

Says the website, not sure which is correct

 

[Deery]

Maybe yes, he brought the knife with him from the US, he had it on him. He reportedly had mental and behavioural issues surrounding being attacked himself.

Still not good carrying about a knife in case you get attacked seems to be in a way premeditated to me, I’m sure there’s a law if you have a weapon at home say a baseball bat and someone breaks into your home and you beat him it’s worse for you if say, you lift something unexpectedly and beat him.

 

[oates]

Still not good carrying about a knife in case you get attacked seems to be in a way premeditated to me, I’m sure there’s a law if you have a weapon at home say a baseball bat and someone breaks into your home and you beat him it’s worse for you if say, you lift something unexpectedly and beat him.

It seems that there's little sense in what they did. Went looking to buy drugs. Were conned with Aspirin. Stole dealer's bag. Attempted to extort dealer. Arranged meeting. Allegedly they didn't realise the two people they met weren't police but were prepared to take on a couple of what they thought were thugs. All the wrong decisions made when they could have just written 80Euros off to experience. Some tourists bring a money belt, others a second cheaper watch, he brought a knife.

 

[Foxbatt]

It's lucky they did it in Italy. In the US they would have been shot on the spot for attacking an undercover police officer with a knife.

 

[Deery]

It seems that there's little sense in what they did. Went looking to buy drugs. Were conned with Aspirin. Stole dealer's bag. Attempted to extort dealer. Arranged meeting. Allegedly they didn't realise the two people they met weren't police but were prepared to take on a couple of what they thought were thugs. All the wrong decisions made when they could have just written 80Euros off to experience. Some tourists bring a money belt, others a second cheaper watch, he brought a knife.

Yeah, it’s totally senseless, but I still get the feeling the guy that did the stabbing was a bad egg, just a feeling I’m getting..

 

[cyberman]

No excuse. They attacked an undercover cop which rules out self defence or any such excuses. Dont really see whats noteworthy here.

 

[golden_blunder]

No sympathy

 

[oates]

Yeah, it’s totally senseless, but I still get the feeling the guy that did the stabbing was a bad egg, just a feeling I’m getting..

I think you are right really, it just bothers me to some extent that a) It has to be virtually impossible to get a completely fair jury trial in the foreign city when you kill one of their policemen plus b) I'm virtually certain that with the many many appeals possible that this will run and run and that we will see at least some parallels with the Kercher case.

 

[Deery]

I think you are right really, it just bothers me to some extent that a) It has to be virtually impossible to get a completely fair jury trial in the foreign city when you kill one of their policemen plus b) I'm virtually certain that with the many many appeals possible that this will run and run and that we will see at least some parallels with the Kercher case.

Seems a little more cut and dry than the Kercher case but I agree with you there will be a lot of appeals in the near future.

 

[B20]

"Vacationing Bay Area Schoolmates"
"two American tourists"

How about

"American coke fiends kill undercover policeman with smuggled knife after stealing bag from drug dealer"


The drug dealer going to the police and them then setting up an undercover sting without proper support does sound pretty weird. What was their rationale for that?

 

[Scarlett Dracarys]

They shouldn't be stabbing anyone, cop or no cop but why are cops going undercover without guns ? No wonder everyone thinks that cops in America are barbarians. He would have been taken out before the first stab and his family would be seen crying on tv and carrying on an on about how good he is.

 

[sun_tzu]

The drug dealer going to the police and them then setting up an undercover sting without proper support does sound pretty weird. What was their rationale for that?

apparently the dealer was a police informant - I would guess the police felt it would be an easy arrest of two tourists?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

apparently the dealer was a police informant - I would guess the police felt it would be an easy arrest of two tourists?

Seems more than a bit over the top to send two undercover policemen to try and arrest a couple of students who nicked a backpack off a known scumbag.

 

[calodo2003]

"Vacationing Bay Area Schoolmates"
"two American tourists"

How about

"American coke fiends kill undercover policeman with smuggled knife after stealing bag from drug dealer"


The drug dealer going to the police and them then setting up an undercover sting without proper support does sound pretty weird. What was their rationale for that?

Yep.

Similar to how Adam Toledo was described as a ‘13 year old man.’

Weird case overall, but don’t have any sympathy for fellow Americans who put themselves in stupid positions like this.

 

[sun_tzu]

Seems more than a bit over the top to send two undercover policemen to try and arrest a couple of students who nicked a backpack off a known scumbag.

I dunno - Thiefs tyring to deal in narcotics - In a tourist area ... suspect its pretty normal to have these type of sting operations

Also perhaps the known scumbag (who as far as i know isnt so scummy he stabbed somebody 11 times) said to the police that there was just something totally off about this guy?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I dunno - Thiefs tyring to deal in narcotics - In a tourist area ... suspect its pretty normal to have these type of sting operations

Also perhaps the known scumbag (who as far as i know isnt so scummy he stabbed somebody 11 times) said to the police that there was just something totally off about this guy?

What’s weird is that the sting seems to be targetting the narcotics customers, rather than the dealers. Which seems like a complete waste of resources. Although it’s possible the scumbag/informant painted a different picture to try and convince the cops to help him get his bag back?

 

[The Firestarter]

Surely there must be a lot more to this story, the actions of the police as depicted sound very bizarre.