Uighurs seek genocide charges against Beijing

[Organic Potatoes]

I can confirm that I have never a negative narrative about Singapore in the Netherlands or Canada either. The overall narrative is very positive actually. Same with reporting in scientific magazines that I have read.

Negative? Hell, it’s held up as a model society.

Singapore noodles is also one of our best ‘American Chinese’ dishes, though I think it’s actually from Hong Kong or something. Not sure how relevant any of that is, but getting a fast food named after you is a great honor in the US.

 

[VorZakone]

The Singapore narrative is always nuanced though, it acknowledges its successes but there's always a "they sacrificed some rights" narrative attached to it.

 

[Lj82]

Negative? Hell, it’s held up as a model society.

Singapore noodles is also one of our best ‘American Chinese’ dishes, though I think it’s actually from Hong Kong or something. Not sure how relevant any of that is, but getting a fast food named after you is a great honor in the US.

That is fake though. No Singaporean knows what the hell is Singapore noodles

 

[Organic Potatoes]

That is fake though. No Singaporean knows what the hell is Singapore noodles

Yeah, that is what I’ve heard as well.

 

[Gehrman]

Never really heard much smear about Singapore either. I once heard you could get arrested for throwing a piece of gum on the street and that's about it.

 

[Brwned]

Never really heard much smear about Singapore either. I once heard you could get arrested for throwing a piece of gum on the street and that's about it.

Autocratic regime, death sentences for drugs, arrested for inappropriate littering...they're the usual countours. Occasionally some mentions of marginalisation of minority communities. They don't come close to the overwhelmingly positive assessment of Singapore's social cohesion, economic strength and general competence in providing for society's basic needs. Not sure what @Pronewbie's talking about but there's nothing remotely comparable in how the "Western media" describe Singapore and the the Uighurs.

 

[Cheimoon]

Good timing: here is an article from the Volkskrant on the destruction of mosques in Xinjiang. They went into the region to investigate, which is what the Chinese government actually asks journalists to do. But once there, they were constantly followed by government agents, whi tried to stop them from taking pictures and speaking to locals on their own. But they managed to take some anyway and used satellite images to show that there has been a real campaign of destruction of mosques - apparently for no other reason than to destroy them, since their plots remain empty.

The article demonstrates a clear campaign of government lies (virtually all their statements on the matter are verifiable false), interference in journalism, interference in daily life (like all the security cams on the remaining mosques), and oppression (through the destruction of mosques).

https://www.volkskrant.nl/kijkverder/v/2021/how-china-is-destroying-the-uyghur-mosques~v440216/

Try and explain that away, @Pronewbie.

 

[maniak]

Try and explain that away, @Pronewbie.

Easy, it's western propaganda. Done.

 

[Cheimoon]

Easy, it's western propaganda. Done.

Well, I like this article since it provides all the detail of their methods and uses satellite imagery, which can be checked back. So I'd really like to see what pro-China argument is possible here in a good-faith discussion (hopefully not wishful thinking on my part).

 

[RedTiger]

I've wondered why the Chinese state allows Hui citizens to practice the religion including Ramadan fasting but they deny the Uighurs the same. I just don't understand why they treat the many Muslim ethnicities differently.

There's a Hui woman who I watch on YouTube for her cooking and I remember she once asked her viewers to not talk about Uighurs on her channel because it would affect her community.


I think this is the video where she asks people to not worry too much.... I'm sort of inclined to believe that this channel might be soft propaganda.

 

[VorZakone]

I've wondered why the Chinese state allows Hui citizens to practice the religion including Ramadan fasting but they deny the Uighurs the same. I just don't understand why they treat the many Muslim ethnicities differently.

There's a Hui woman who I watch on YouTube for her cooking and I remember she once asked her viewers to not talk about Uighurs on her channel because it would affect her community.


I think this is the video where she asks people to not worry too much.... I'm sort of inclined to believe that this channel might be soft propaganda.

Are there terrorist or separatist elements within the Hui people?

 

[RedTiger]

Are there terrorist or separatist elements within the Hui people?

Not that I know of. Hui have generally been integrated within Chinese society to the point that there were Muslim leaders on both sides of the civil war.

My point of contention is why curtail the Uighurs in religious practice? There must be other ways of remedying the seperatism. If the Chinese curtailed Hui from practicing then they would just as likely kick off as the Uighur have done.

 

[Pronewbie]

https://thegrayzone.com/2020/03/05/...s-far-right-regime-change-network-fall-china/

 

[Cheimoon]

https://thegrayzone.com/2020/03/05/...s-far-right-regime-change-network-fall-china/

I don't think anyone is saying that everything the Uighurs do is necessarily right. But we're talking here about the suppression of the Uighurs by China. How does that article change affect that point? And I'd also be very interested in your response to the article I posted a couple of posts above.

 

[Pronewbie]

Uighurs learning their own culture and language in school


Free and easy trip and casual Q&A by a foreigner in Xinjiang:


Award-winning Ex-FBI whistleblower / whistleblower's 2015 prediction that Xinjiang will be weaponised by the US. Turkey has been training Uighur extremists and sending them back to Xinjiang, bearing in mind that there were already a number of terror attacks.


Middle-income neighbourhood walkabout in Xinjiang:


Foreigner visiting a cotton farm:


East Turkestan Islamic Movement training kids for terrorist acts (5 years ago):


Human rights abuses in re-education camps? Yes. China is walking down a new path here with the re-education camps to solve their extremism issues (they'd suffered a number of high profile extremist-Uighur attacks):
1 I don't think the idea of re-education in itself is a human rights abuse. It is unchartered territory but let's see if it works. China needs to be more open on that front and provide the data. I certainly hope they're tracking results, and should share with the world their preliminary findings.
2. The camp locations provided (most of which were debunked) cannot fill 1M Uighurs. This is just based on science.
3. I believe that there is a very high possibility of human rights abuse in these camps especially when there's a clash in ideology (extremism vs moderate islam), and China needs to be more open about it. The world can also learn from this experience.
4. There is a difference between co-existence (moderate Islam) and wanting an Islamic state of your own in a world of Nations. I base my views on co-existence.

On the balance of probability, I highly doubt that there is Uighur genocide in Xinjiang - and certainly not on civilians. But as I said, I will plan for a trip when I'm allowed to travel again to see for myself and speak to the local Uighur community. You can too if you are open-minded and have the money to spare. It looks beautiful and isn't boarded off, unlike what a lot of the Western media portrays it to be (I apologise for over-generalising "western media" in my previous posts).

On a side-note, I think America's hypocrisy on this matter is stunning. Their "solution" to solving extremism in Islam is pretty much genocidal - funding of militant groups, bombing civilians and toppling governments and supporting Israel against Palestine. Their prisons appear to practise a legalised slave labour system, of which a large percentage of the incarcerated are African-Americans: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/aug/20/prison-labor-protest-america-jailhouse-lawyers-speak

So while I think there may be an economic interest for Muslim countries to "hush up" (many didn't at various points when America did their atrocities), I think there's also a possibility that they believe that there isn't a genocide. As the Filipino Imam shared (in an earlier post), Uighurs are in all levels of Chinese society, there are those in senior positions within the CCP, there are those leading the local Xinjiang government (CCP), there are many successful Uighur business-men, and there are many Uighur University graduates and so-on.

 

[2cents]

I highly doubt that there is Uighur genocide in Xinjiang - and certainly not on civilians. But as I said, I will plan for a trip to the city when I'm allowed to travel again

Just to clarify - you understand that Xinjiang is not a city right?

 

[Pronewbie]

Just to clarify - you understand that Xinjiang is not a city right?

Yes thank you its 5am now where i am and I rewrote that post a few times.

 

[Cheimoon]

Uighurs learning their own culture and language in school


Free and easy trip and casual Q&A by a foreigner in Xinjiang:


Award-winning Ex-FBI whistleblower / whistleblower's 2015 prediction that Xinjiang will be weaponised by the US. Turkey has been training Uighur extremists and sending them back to Xinjiang, bearing in mind that there were already a number of terror attacks.


Middle-income neighbourhood walkabout in Xinjiang:


Foreigner visiting a cotton farm:


East Turkestan Islamic Movement training kids for terrorist acts (5 years ago):


Human rights abuses in re-education camps? Yes. China is walking down a new path here with the re-education camps to solve their extremism issues (they'd suffered a number of high profile extremist-Uighur attacks):
1 I don't think the idea of re-education in itself is a human rights abuse. It is unchartered territory but let's see if it works. China needs to be more open on that front and provide the data. I certainly hope they're tracking results, and should share with the world their preliminary findings.
2. The camp locations provided (most of which were debunked) cannot fill 1M Uighurs. This is just based on science.
3. I believe that there is a very high possibility of human rights abuse in these camps especially when there's a clash in ideology (extremism vs moderate islam), and China needs to be more open about it. The world can also learn from this experience.
4. There is a difference between co-existence (moderate Islam) and wanting an Islamic state of your own in a world of Nations. I base my views on co-existence.

On the balance of probability, I highly doubt that there is Uighur genocide in Xinjiang - and certainly not on civilians. But as I said, I will plan for a trip when I'm allowed to travel again to see for myself and speak to the local Uighur community. You can too if you are open-minded and have the money to spare. It looks beautiful and isn't boarded off, unlike what a lot of the Western media portrays it to be (I apologise for over-generalising "western media" in my previous posts).

On a side-note, I think America's hypocrisy on this matter is stunning. Their "solution" to solving extremism in Islam is pretty much genocidal - funding of militant groups, bombing civilians and toppling governments and supporting Israel against Palestine. Their prisons appear to practise a legalised slave labour system, of which a large percentage of the incarcerated are African-Americans: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/aug/20/prison-labor-protest-america-jailhouse-lawyers-speak

So while I think there may be an economic interest for Muslim countries to "hush up" (many didn't at various points when America did their atrocities), I think there's also a possibility that they believe that there isn't a genocide. As the Filipino Imam shared (in an earlier post), Uighurs are in all levels of Chinese society, there are those in senior positions within the CCP, there are those leading the local Xinjiang government (CCP), there are many successful Uighur business-men, and there are many Uighur University graduates and so-on.

Re-education is nothing new. It's been tried throughout history and is now being seen as human rights abuse. It eradicates a culture, or at least an aspect thereof. So there's nothing to learn, and everything to reprehend - except if you think that an enormous part of the population are radicalized extremests over there, which is obvious nonsense.

Also, as I said before, this isn't a binary situation where there is either a genocide or all is fine. If there is no genocide, there can still be real suppression and cultural eradication. And there is.

Similarly, if part of the population is doing well, or there can't be 1M people in those camps, then that doesn't mean that everyone is doing well or that the camps don't exist.

Finally, as has also been pointed out, you going there won't prove anything. As the article I posted above made clear, there is no free movement in the area. You're only allowed to go where they let you, which is the areas where you won't find problematic situations. So of course you won't see them.

 

[Pronewbie]

1 last point I'd like to make on this topic.

I could be right, and I could be completely wrong, of which I apologise to everyone in advance for wasting your time.

But if I'm proven "right", and the country you live in is hosting any of these extremists (not all Uighurs who migrate are), then definitely raise awareness and report this to your local authorities for action.

https://thegrayzone.com/2021/03/31/china-uyghur-gun-soldiers-empire/

 

[Pronewbie]

Re-education is nothing new. It's been tried throughout history and is now being seen as human rights abuse. It eradicates a culture, or at least an aspect thereof. So there's nothing to learn, and everything to reprehend - except if you think that an enormous part of the population are radicalized extremests over there, which is obvious nonsense.

Also, as I said before, this isn't a binary situation where there is either a genocide or all is fine. If there is no genocide, there can still be real suppression and cultural eradication. And there is.

Similarly, if part of the population is doing well, or there can't be 1M people in those camps, then that doesn't mean that everyone is doing well or that the camps don't exist.

Finally, as has also been pointed out, you going there won't prove anything. As the article I posted above made clear, there is no free movement in the area. You're only allowed to go where they let you, which is the areas where you won't find problematic situations. So of course you won't see them.

Please keep an open mind and look at the other side of the story. It's in my previous post:
1. There are state-owned video examples of re-education working. I believe Daniel dumbrill also interviewed someone who converted back to moderate islam. So it does work for a certain percentage. What's the alternative solution for de-radicalisation? Europe and America hasn't done a good job either.

2. China must be doing an awful job suppressing the uighurs since the kids are allowed to learn their cultural dance, read and write their language and practise Islam like any moderate Muslim. They have many local businesses and their cuisine is widely available. They are also able to move freely. Do you have any idea how much the cotton ban hurts the the poorer uighurs?

3. Western media claiming no free movement vs videos of foreigners in xinjiang travelling freely? Feel free to search for them. I haven't shared videos of my fellow South East Asians chronicling their visit because the videos are quite boring albeit beautiful.

There's also a Chinese guy on YouTube who filmed and mocks the BBC's claims of restricted movement at a cotton factory vs the reality of what it's like inside.

 

[nimic]

I don't think the idea of re-education in itself is a human rights abuse. It is unchartered territory but let's see if it works.

This quote doesn't need a response, it speaks volumes on its own.

I believe that there is a very high possibility of human rights abuse in these camps especially when there's a clash in ideology (extremism vs moderate islam), and China needs to be more open about it. The world can also learn from this experience.

So if there are human rights abuses in these camps, it's the Muslims' fault? And the world needs to learn from the re-education camps?

Award-winning Ex-FBI whistleblower / whistleblower's 2015 prediction that Xinjiang will be weaponised by the US. Turkey has been training Uighur extremists and sending them back to Xinjiang, bearing in mind that there were already a number of terror attacks.


Middle-income neighbourhood walkabout in Xinjiang:

Great source. I particularly enjoyed the videos where he says that there was no Tiananmen Square massacre. Truly an unbiased, objective source. Oh yeah, and he's Just Asking Questions:
George Floyd Protests: Is US media less FREE than Hong Kong, China's?

 

[maniak]

Well, I like this article since it provides all the detail of their methods and uses satellite imagery, which can be checked back. So I'd really like to see what pro-China argument is possible here in a good-faith discussion (hopefully not wishful thinking on my part).

You wont get a good faith discussion.

Pronewbie has made up his mind, so that's it. You can't inform people who want to be uninformed.

One has to be really naive to believe any youtube content filmed inside China is done without the government knowing, approving or outright using for propaganda.

 

[Pronewbie]

You wont get a good faith discussion.

Pronewbie has made up his mind, so that's it. You can't inform people who want to be uninformed.

One has to be really naive to believe any youtube content filmed inside China is done without the government knowing, approving or outright using for propaganda.

Insane and just mind boggling. If you are indicative of the West's knowledge of China then I am just gobsmacked. VPNs are widely used amongst those 35 and below, and the Chinese can move in and out of their country freely as tourists (pre-covid) and students.Talk to them. There is no video upload censorship on sites like YouTube via vpn. Here's a link for your reference: https://www.travelchinacheaper.com/access-youtube-in-china

They are also incredibly modern in tier 1 cities. This unfortunately reaffirms the close-mindedness and power that the mainstream media holds. I'm still stunned.

 

[maniak]

Insane and just mind boggling. If you are indicative of the West's knowledge of China then I am just gobsmacked. You have also clearly not visited China in this case. VPNs are widely used amongst those 35 and below, and the Chinese can move in and out of their country freely as tourists (pre-covid). There is no video upload censorship on sites like YouTube via vpn. Here's a link for your reference: https://www.travelchinacheaper.com/access-youtube-in-china

They are also incredibly modern in tier 1 cities. This unfortunately reaffirms the close-mindedness and power that the mainstream media holds. I'm still stunned.

I'm sure you are, but I don't really want to engage because as I said, you've made up your mind.

 

[Cheimoon]

I'm sure you are, but I don't really want to engage because as I said, you've made up your mind.

Yeah, I'm done here. I'll just add that China does not have full freedom for its citizens (its Internet is heavily censured and there is no free press, just for starters), and certainly no free travel for foreign journalists (see the article I posted today as just one small example); claims otherwise are simply false.

 

[Cheimoon]

Another interesting article from the same journalist from De Volkskrant, this time only available in Dutch (for now?):

https://www.volkskrant.nl/a-bd0f6bc8

She met a woman in Kazachstan that claims to have had to do forced labour in Xinjiang. Given the amount of international discussion about the reality of such claims, she (the journalist) tries to corroborate the woman's claim through local research and interviews and satellite imagery. She again describes how the local authorities thward her work in every way possible, most specifically by following her around to block her access to certain areas and prevent interviews from happening.

All the same, she does manage to get pretty strong evidence, if ultimately circumstantial, that the woman's story is true. It seems clear that forced labour is being used on random citizens for next-to-no reason (the woman in question is a non-practising Muslim who ran a small business), that this is accompanied by huge social pressure to ensure people adopt certain jobs and behaviours, and that there is a program of cultural assimilation going on.

Investigative journalism isn't dead just yet - and I hope her work gets wide exposure. Its conclusions on the Xinjiang situation are pretty clear.

 

[Cheimoon]

Ah, I realize I forgot to make those conclusions explicit: cultural genocide.

It's not an 'official' concept I think, but it was used in Canada a few years ago to describe Canada's treatment of the Indigenous Peoples in Canada, because the policies enacted aimed at assimilation, which would ultimately mean the eradication of Indigebous cultures. There was some discussion on the validity of the term, but there was broad support for the introduction of the concept, as it well describes what happened; and what China is doing in Xinjiang clearly seems to be going considerably further than what Canada ever attempted. (Residential schools are tame in comparison.)

 

[Raoul]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[milemuncher777]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[VorZakone]

The comments are quite interesting here. Not as anti-China as expected.

 

[nimic]

The comments are quite interesting here. Not as anti-China as expected.

If you put Muslims up against China, Reddit has to decide who they hate more. There is almost no value to Reddit comments, particularly on such a big subreddit.

 

[Dumbstar]

There is a demo planned on 1st July in London against China's appalling treatment of the Uighars. 5pm - 8pm outside their Embassy.

Apparently coincides with 100 years celebration of China's creation (into Communism presumably).

 

[hmchan]

The comments are quite interesting here. Not as anti-China as expected.

Like those interesting comments here defending China for this pandemic.

 

[VorZakone]

Apparently this dude is a professor with communist views.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[Cheimoon]

Apparently this dude is a professor with communist views.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

I don't get this focus on Zenz and genocide. It's not at all mainstream stuff. Or at least: I don't follow this topic very closely, I just notice whatever appears in my regular news sources (Canadian and Dutch), or here on the forum. In those, genocide is not a topic; it's about suppression and assimilation. 'Cultural genocide' I think would be an appropriate term, but it's not a commonly used concept (as I said some posts back, it may have been introduced in Canada in the context of Indigenous Peoples), and anyway very different from 'genocide', as it doesn't (or not necessarily) involves the murdering of people.

So based on what I know about the situation Xinjiang, I would be fine with agreeing that there is no genocide happening there. But the implication seems to be that, if there is no genocide, then all is fine. And that's ridiculous.

 

[VorZakone]

I don't get this focus on Zenz and genocide. It's not at all mainstream stuff. Or at least: I don't follow this topic very closely, I just notice whatever appears in my regular news sources (Canadian and Dutch), or here on the forum. In those, genocide is not a topic; it's about suppression and assimilation. 'Cultural genocide' I think would be an appropriate term, but it's not a commonly used concept (as I said some posts back, it may have been introduced in Canada in the context of Indigenous Peoples), and anyway very different from 'genocide', as it doesn't (or not necessarily) involve the murdering of people.

So based on what I know about the situation Xinjiang, I would be fine with agreeing that there is no genocide happening there. But the implication seems to be that, if there is no genocide, then all is fine. And that's ridiculous.

There's a clear agenda out there to disregard the Uyghur situation. These people don't look at it as rationally as you and me. They don't want to.

 

[Desert Eagle]

I don't get this focus on Zenz and genocide. It's not at all mainstream stuff. Or at least: I don't follow this topic very closely, I just notice whatever appears in my regular news sources (Canadian and Dutch), or here on the forum. In those, genocide is not a topic; it's about suppression and assimilation. 'Cultural genocide' I think would be an appropriate term, but it's not a commonly used concept (as I said some posts back, it may have been introduced in Canada in the context of Indigenous Peoples), and anyway very different from 'genocide', as it doesn't (or not necessarily) involves the murdering of people.

So based on what I know about the situation Xinjiang, I would be fine with agreeing that there is no genocide happening there. But the implication seems to be that, if there is no genocide, then all is fine. And that's ridiculous.

It's all about the Benjamins. China's business is so vital to so many countries and since no action is going to be taken , the excuses just flow easier. A good comparison would be the Iraq war. So much death and destruction but did anybody cut ties with America or American companies, very few and far between from what I recall. Money first, principles and human rights will be lucky to make the top ten.

 

[Cheimoon]

It's all about the Benjamins. China's business is so vital to so many countries and since no action is going to be taken , the excuses just flow easier. A good comparison would be the Iraq war. So much death and destruction but did anybody cut ties with America or American companies, very few and far between from what I recall. Money first, principles and human rights will be lucky to make the top ten.

Absolutely.

 

[hmchan]

AP Exclusive: Diplomats say China puts squeeze on Ukraine
https://apnews.com/article/united-n...raine-health-a0a5ae8f735b92e39c623e453529cbb9

 

[Cheimoon]

Also: it's hard to take any positive news about China seriously with the way China is influencing, paying, and buying, as well as bullying and intimidating media organizations across the world. There's an overview of it here (in Dutch, but I suppose online translation will be good enough to get the idea):

https://www.volkskrant.nl/a-ba777425