Well, that's the beauty of it. A party can support it in parliament and do nothing with it in government. It happened in both places. Some people for sure have their hearts at the right places, but a lot of it is just political posturing, in the knowledge that they will be able to spin the parliament vs. government aspect of these motions in whatever way they think will work best to convince voters. This was actually very obvious in Canada, since all ministers were absent, except the one for Foreign Affairs, who was there just to say that he abstained on behalf of the government. (It's different in the Netherlands, where government members are not also MPs.)
Uighurs seek genocide charges against Beijing
- Thread starter esmufc07
- Start date
I might not get it. What you call beauty I call it hypocrisy. Maybe I am more cynical and i distrust the political class. for me is a charade. People with their hearts at the right place? sure. but a frank minority in those spheres of power
I simply don't have any hope on the ones that rules big nations, and as always there are different degrees. But those declarations, IMHO, unnecessary if later you do nothing
Ah, I totally agree with all that actually. It's not at all beautiful to me, I meant that it's very attractive to politicians, as they get to have their cake and eat it: denounce it in parliament, and ignore it in government. I also agree that few people really care, but I don't want to say all politicians are out-and-out hypocrites and only in it for the power. They got into politics for a reason, and many of them have issues that they care deeply about. (I know that's true for federal health minister Patty Hajdu, for example.) But the political game is all-consuming, and it's hard to draw the line. Does Chong, as one of those behind the motion, really care about the Uighurs or China, or just a bit and he's mostly doing this to try and make the Libs look bad? And so on.
Last edited:
Which SEA countries would you propose?
I'm not a big fan of India because of their caste system.
Yes, exactly that but with the danger that they are sending the message that is ok to do business with genocides as long as we profit
I am not well versed with the socioeconomic situation of each of them. As I don't know the exact situation of the Uighurs as I tend to believe that is is mostly true but there is a mix of western propaganda (Like Kim-Jon-Un is a megalomaniac dictator but there are stories pushed by the west that they are not accurate or straight lies). But that is why I am not a politician, I am not paid to find the solution. But I have the right to criticize and ask the government to find a better solution.
Decide which countries has a manufacture base and certain growth potential and agree on certain terms that can't be crossed. Myanmar? we would be at the same problem with the rohyngas. Maybe Vietnam as geografically and economically would be an option? Phillipines it has a lot of potential because of population size, very americanized scholins system, english as cooficial language, not that long ago was close to US and the west (before Duterte). Thailand as well. I don't know much about Laos or Cambodja.
And I agree about the caste system and is deeply enrooted. Maybe economic development would destroy that system (that is not legal)? could be india be persuaded to enforce the laws that forbid the caste system in exchange of trying to persuade the private sector to move there?
And is the caste system than what is happening with the Uighurs? the caste system is something culture inherited not enforced by the government per se but how it had been working for centuries and they are on the road (still very far) to solve it. The Uighur problem is created by the government and is cultural and personal genocide and is only going worse
As I said at the beginning, I don't have the knowledge and I don't get paid for it and I don't know if the solutions that I propose could be worse than the original problem, But something should be done. Or should the countries just observe and be fine with it?
Uighurs: Western countries sanction China over rights abuses
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56487162
lets see the extend of them. It will change nothing but at least is more than words
"one of the worst human rights crises of our time"
"cannot simply look the other way"
"appalling violations of the most basic human rights"
sums it up.
"cannot simply look the other way"
"appalling violations of the most basic human rights"
sums it up.
Look at this video, uploaded by CGTN (China Global Television Network).
Surely this is a deliberate approach by China to justify their actions in Xinjiang, by showing the world what extremists they're dealing with. Read the comments too, they're all in favour of China.
Surely this is a deliberate approach by China to justify their actions in Xinjiang, by showing the world what extremists they're dealing with. Read the comments too, they're all in favour of China.
Going by history it appears the world wants a genocide every century.
Completely batshit statements by the radical that is being interviewed, truly insane.
But that alone doesn’t justify the genocide.
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/china-uyghur-children-sent-orphan-camps-xinjiang
Uyghurs in exile in Italy, Turkey and elsewhere discover their children in China have been sent to ‘orphan camps’
Other relatives in Xinjiang targeted and unable to look after the children
Orphan camps part of wider crackdown on Uyghurs
"Now my children are in the hands of the Chinese government and I am not sure I will be able to meet them again in my lifetime" - Uyghur parent in Italy
The exiled families of Uyghur children held in ‘orphan camps’ in the Chinese region of Xinjiang have described their torment in new research published by Amnesty International today.
Amnesty spoke to parents who have been completely cut off from their children - some as young as five years old - and cannot return to China due to the threat of being sent to a “re-education” internment camp themselves.
In the 16-page account of their experiences, Amnesty interviews exiled Uyghur families currently living in Australia, Canada, Italy, the Netherlands and Turkey. The families, all of whom left China prior to the intensification of the crackdown on Uyghurs and other Muslim minority groups in 2017, had not anticipated that their children would be prevented from joining them.
Parents Mihriban Kader and Ablikim Memtinin fled from Xinjiang to Italy in 2016 after being harassed by police and pressured to give up their passports. They left four children in the temporary care of grandparents, but soon afterwards the grandmother was taken to a camp, while the grandfather was interrogated by police.
The three youngest children were sent to an ‘orphan camp’ - facilities set up across Xinjiang to hold and indoctrinate children whose parents have been forced into internment camps, prison or other detention facilities. The eldest child was placed in a boarding school subjected to tight surveillance. Mihriban and Ablikim were unable to contact their children from Italy, but in 2019 they received a permit from the Italian authorities to bring them to Italy. The four children - aged between 12 and 16 - travelled alone across China to the Italian consulate in Shanghai, but were seized by police and sent back to the orphanage and boarding school.
Mihriban Kader told Amnesty:
Omer Faruh told Amnesty:
Since 2017, it is estimated that at least one million people - predominantly Muslim Uyghurs - have been arbitrarily detained in so-called “transformation-through-education” or “vocational training” centres in Xinjiang, where they have been subjected to various forms of torture and ill-treatment, as well as political indoctrination and forced cultural assimilation.
Alkan Akad, Amnesty International’s China Researcher, said:
Uyghurs in exile in Italy, Turkey and elsewhere discover their children in China have been sent to ‘orphan camps’
Other relatives in Xinjiang targeted and unable to look after the children
Orphan camps part of wider crackdown on Uyghurs
"Now my children are in the hands of the Chinese government and I am not sure I will be able to meet them again in my lifetime" - Uyghur parent in Italy
The exiled families of Uyghur children held in ‘orphan camps’ in the Chinese region of Xinjiang have described their torment in new research published by Amnesty International today.
Amnesty spoke to parents who have been completely cut off from their children - some as young as five years old - and cannot return to China due to the threat of being sent to a “re-education” internment camp themselves.
In the 16-page account of their experiences, Amnesty interviews exiled Uyghur families currently living in Australia, Canada, Italy, the Netherlands and Turkey. The families, all of whom left China prior to the intensification of the crackdown on Uyghurs and other Muslim minority groups in 2017, had not anticipated that their children would be prevented from joining them.
Parents Mihriban Kader and Ablikim Memtinin fled from Xinjiang to Italy in 2016 after being harassed by police and pressured to give up their passports. They left four children in the temporary care of grandparents, but soon afterwards the grandmother was taken to a camp, while the grandfather was interrogated by police.
The three youngest children were sent to an ‘orphan camp’ - facilities set up across Xinjiang to hold and indoctrinate children whose parents have been forced into internment camps, prison or other detention facilities. The eldest child was placed in a boarding school subjected to tight surveillance. Mihriban and Ablikim were unable to contact their children from Italy, but in 2019 they received a permit from the Italian authorities to bring them to Italy. The four children - aged between 12 and 16 - travelled alone across China to the Italian consulate in Shanghai, but were seized by police and sent back to the orphanage and boarding school.
Mihriban Kader told Amnesty:
In another case, Omer and Meryem Faruh fled to Turkey in late 2016 after police demanded they hand over their passports. They left their two youngest children, aged five and six, with grandparents because they did not yet have their own travel documents. Omer and Meryem later found out their relatives had been taken to camps, and they have received no word about their children since.
Omer Faruh told Amnesty:
Amnesty is calling on the Chinese government to provide unrestricted access to Xinjiang for UN human rights experts, independent researchers and journalists to allow them to conduct investigations in the region. Amnesty is also urging other governments to ensure that Uyghurs, Kazakhs and other ethnic minorities from China resident in their countries are provided with assistance in trying to locate, contact and reunite with their children.
Since 2017, it is estimated that at least one million people - predominantly Muslim Uyghurs - have been arbitrarily detained in so-called “transformation-through-education” or “vocational training” centres in Xinjiang, where they have been subjected to various forms of torture and ill-treatment, as well as political indoctrination and forced cultural assimilation.
Alkan Akad, Amnesty International’s China Researcher, said:
House of Commons declares Uighurs are being subjected to genocide in China
The House of Commons approves a motion calling on the government to fulfil its obligations under international human rights law.
MPs have declared that Uighurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in China's Xinjiang region are being subjected to genocide.
The House of Commons on Thursday approved a motion calling on the government to act to fulfil its obligations under international human rights law.
Although the motion passed by MPs is non-binding on the government, it will increase pressure on ministers to take a harder stance over the issue.
House of Commons declares Uighurs are being subjected to genocide in China | Politics News | Sky News
The House of Commons approves a motion calling on the government to fulfil its obligations under international human rights law.
MPs have declared that Uighurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in China's Xinjiang region are being subjected to genocide.
The House of Commons on Thursday approved a motion calling on the government to act to fulfil its obligations under international human rights law.
Although the motion passed by MPs is non-binding on the government, it will increase pressure on ministers to take a harder stance over the issue.
House of Commons declares Uighurs are being subjected to genocide in China | Politics News | Sky News
Did any more than 6 MP's actually take part in that?
I'm a Pakistani, if you want someone to kick some mud at India you can't do better than a Pakistani but the caste system is no reason not to invest in India.
The rise of the fascist right wing Hindus who hold power in most of the North Indian states is a good reason, but not the caste system.
The caste system is a bad thing. It it thousands of years old and still relevant to many Indians, even those baring the brunt of it. Indians need to change that internally.
As for places to invest...
I think Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Vietnam, Philippines, Indonesia are all good shouts.
Ethiopia, Nigeria, Eygpt too. All countries with large workforces available at cheap rates. All based near international trade routes.
American companies should focus on Mexico and Brazil. Both have large populations, cheap labour and are close by.
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/06/08/...slim-china-disappearances-cmd-intl/index.html
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-57383548
How is there not more of a furore over this? Not just by Muslims worldwide but in general liberal left circles? In fact here you have Muslim majority or Islamic Republics/Kingdoms deporting Muslims to China to live in concentration camps and hardly any one seems to care. Imagine social media storms, news media cycles and protests if Israel got some countries to deport Palestinians so that they can be tried for some perceived crimes.
Is it just that geopolitics or the ethnicities of Uyghurs make this a non issue for Muslims or liberals?
I read about this once a few months ago in a Dutch newspaper and that's the only thing I ever saw about it. I think both reasons count equally: this generally isn't important enough for other countries to make a proper fuzz about (the Uyghurs in general, but especially criticizing not just China but also its international collaborators), and it's just too remote for the general public - at least in Europe and North America...
There definitely should be furore, especially from citizens of the countries that are deporting Uighurs to China. I think everyone should try to make some noise about on way or another, but I also think there is sense of powerlessness about being able to meddle in Chinese affairs. For instance the west was never able to enforce meaninfull change in North Korea or prevent them from getting the atomic bomb. I think with China no amount of santions/hard talk will make them budge in doing what they are doing, but it's still better speak up rather than stay silent about it.
It is clear to me that the American/Western MSM/elites are trying to dehumanise the Chinese to justify any war with them, just like what they've done since the Iraq war. A by-effect is that it is suddenly okay to be racist and aggressive towards any ethnic Chinese. This is similar to what the Muslims suffered after 9-11 for the West to justify any middle-east invasion.
Here's a mish-mash of laymen and academics from Canada and the US debunking America's Xinjiang narrative (his channel also has videos of him visiting Xinjiang):
BBC reporter getting shot down by China's Ministry of China Affairs:
If you open your minds and accept the possibility that the Western MSM is having a massive anti-China propaganda push that has caused Asian hate crime to spike, why not see China's viewpoint? Here's a CGTN documentary from 2017 before the allegations(?) showing how the local government have to beg for workers:
Cute Xinjiang Vlogger showing off Xinjiang night-life (and ironically, she has a video of her in the cotton fields from 2 years ago)
A Filipino Imam's take on the Xinjiang narrative:
I didn't know how powerful America's influence on Western Media is, but I guess telling outright lies is fair game over there.
Oh, the PDF containing the satellite images are dodgy AF and Adrian Zenz, the "academic" who compiled evidence of genocide is a religious zealot with 0 exposure to China.
Comparing this to obvious evidence of Palestinian genocide (which America has refused to acknowledge), I have serious doubts on the allegations. The West only seem to care about Chinese Muslims, not so much the Chinese or Muslims.
Here's a mish-mash of laymen and academics from Canada and the US debunking America's Xinjiang narrative (his channel also has videos of him visiting Xinjiang):
BBC reporter getting shot down by China's Ministry of China Affairs:
If you open your minds and accept the possibility that the Western MSM is having a massive anti-China propaganda push that has caused Asian hate crime to spike, why not see China's viewpoint? Here's a CGTN documentary from 2017 before the allegations(?) showing how the local government have to beg for workers:
Cute Xinjiang Vlogger showing off Xinjiang night-life (and ironically, she has a video of her in the cotton fields from 2 years ago)
A Filipino Imam's take on the Xinjiang narrative:
I didn't know how powerful America's influence on Western Media is, but I guess telling outright lies is fair game over there.
Oh, the PDF containing the satellite images are dodgy AF and Adrian Zenz, the "academic" who compiled evidence of genocide is a religious zealot with 0 exposure to China.
Comparing this to obvious evidence of Palestinian genocide (which America has refused to acknowledge), I have serious doubts on the allegations. The West only seem to care about Chinese Muslims, not so much the Chinese or Muslims.
Are there non Muslim Imams? You're literally resorting to a government spokesperson quoting stuff off a YouTube clip as evidence. It's clear that the Chinese government mo is to paint most negative press and information about it as foreign and intended to hurt China. Only the Chinese can fully appreciate China and therefore criticize them. Therefore only the ccp with all its power will be the final arbiter of what is allowed and not. What is real information and not. Of course when you can't argue against the points made resort to YouTube videos.
With all due respect your post looks like its been churned out straight from the CCP propaganda office.
Clips of seemingly normal life in Xinjiang and Muslim voices going against the curve of condemnation hardly constitute a dismissal of what's going on.
There's literally a genocide happening there - the satellite images, the testimonies of those who have escaped, the sheer horror stories, its definitely happening. This isn't just US propaganda (though they'd have their own strategic reasons for flagging it). And contrary to what you say I think Western powers are actually desperately trying to tip toe around the issue and refraining from brazenly condemning China to prevent any form of economic blowback.
Christ, this is some next-level bullshit. Let's bullet this:
- Yes, racism against East Asian people is on the rise, but that's due to the origins of COVID-19, and no-one says it's a good thing.
- No-one is planning to go to war with China; that's just based on absolutely nothing. If anything, governments across the world are trying to ignore the fate of the Uighurs as much as they can in order to be able to keep doing business with China.
- The idea that 'western media' or on monolithic block that can be influenced as a block is nonsense. It's conspiracy-level bollocks, assuming that large parts of the world move as one, while almost nothing does. I mean, you are saying that all mainstream media from across the political spectrum all over Europe, North America, and Australia speak in unison due to America's influence on them. That has never happened on any controversial topic - including the Iraq wars, anything else in the Middle East, or (to go back a little to a former 'common enemy') the Soviet-Union.
- Even if these media would all be brainwashed collectively, what about all the NGOs reporting on China's behaviour in Xinjiang? Also brainwashed? This would be getting into some serious conspiracy theory territory.
- Conspiracy theory is anyway what any reference to this Zenz gets into. I have seen this before, pro-China stories that reduce most, if not all, of anti-Chinese news to the influence of Zenz and his circle. That guy must be thrilled to find out that he has become so influential.
- Using only sources from China (well-know for its authoritarianism and propaganda) and some random nobodies isn't going to convince people of anything.
Last edited:
This is tragic. It seems that anyone who speaks up or have a different narrative is a bot or wumao these days.
I started to have doubts on what the Western MSM were saying because of my interest in investing in some Chinese stocks (Alibaba TenCent etc.), and noticed the inherent anti-china bias which I know was very skewed or simply not true especially when it came to coverage of the Alibaba and Ant Financial. My objective as an investor is to be rational and analytical with my investment decisions. The Western media campaign as part of the US-China cold war is simply incredible, and I believe it's one of the reasons of under-performance of certain Chinese stocks relative to their top and bottom-line.
So out of curiousity, I took the effort to do my own research because I believed in the freedom of the Western press up and took what they said about Xinjiang over the past few years as the truth. While I think the Chinese way of handling Xinjiang's muslim-extremists is non-conventional and prone to human rights abuses at a local-government level in the case of some individuals, I genuinely doubt the existence of Xinjiang genocide after look at the so-called evidence and watching the videos of Uighurs living their normal daily lives that are uniquely Uighur (mosques, food, vibrancy of local businesses etc.). The Western media campaign as part of the US-China cold war is simply incredible, and I believe it's one of the reasons of under-performance of certain Chinese stocks relative to their top and bottom-line.
Have you entered the co-ordinates of the satellite images? The ones I've seen from the PDF are inconclusive. CGTN (sigh, I know) has shared some on their website for your reference if you're lazy: https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1208288.shtml
There are also examples of testimonies that have been proven false if you just open up. Take a fistful of salt if you want but I'd encourage you to see the other side of the coin.
Ah yes, I also recently started investing into some Nestlé stocks and did my own research - which is very rational and analytical from my position as an investor - and it turns out their environmental record is actually flawless and much of the criticism I read in Western MSM was very skewed or just not true!
1. Origins of covid-19 should be explored non-politically for the sake of humanity. It is currently inconclusive IMO especially if we recall the history of the "Spanish flu" that wasn't actually first discovered in Spain. So I'm keeping an open-mind on that.
2. Thucydides trap (American hegemony being challenged by a rising China) (Australian Think Tank funded by the US)
3. Australia is America's security partner, especially in the region. Their think-tanks are mostly American funded. Interesting article on The Guardian on the end of Australia's independence after the coup led by the Americans in 1975 https://www.theguardian.com/comment...itlam-1975-coup-ended-australian-independence. For Australia agreeing with the US on China recently, refer to 33:00 - 34:00 in the video above. That's why they had to cut their economic ties with China despite their own human rights atrocities in the likes of Papua and East Timor. Security > Prosperity. For Europe, you may refer to coverage on Russia - Ukraine.
4. I agree that the accusations of human rights abuses are likely to be true when it comes to suspected Xinjiang muslim-terrorists and want China to be more open about it. But from what I've seen so far there's no evidence of genocide. Uighur population growth, availability of mosques, local businesses and special rights for minorities make me believe otherwise. It's definitely one of the first places visiting to experience for myself when the borders re-open because it looks beautiful from videos I've seen of the place outside of western MSM.
5. I agree, that's why I still am open minded to both Chinese and Western Media on this issue. And IMO more importantly, citizen journalism (East and West)
Last edited:
To invest in Chinese stocks, I need to better understand the risks involved: China's way of doing business, opaque government and the geopolitical risk.
If I were a green investor I'd do the same but may come to a different conclusion than the sarcasm you provided.
Last edited:
This is new to me. Thanks, I've some free time now to learn more about it. I tend to have more faith in articles written explicitly by The Guardian, but not things they heavily infer or reproduce from other publications or news agencies.
As someone who has been fairly into the TIbetan issue for 2 decades, the whole idea of forced sterilization of Uighur's and torture is hardly something that's hard to believe especially considering that CCP hasn't shifted to a more soft position.
Last edited:
Thanks. I haven't explored the Tibet story. What got you interested in it and what is it about loosely? I just realised it's going to take a couple of days to really explore both sides' stance and will be happy to share my thoughts then. Colour me a sceptic when it comes to these kinds of interviews because I have seen some of the Human Rights folks in the West get it wrong a number of times unintentionally.
For example, in Singapore our political system is far from perfect but you'd think it's hell especially up till the 90s. Some of our "exiles" are genuine cases whose books I've read, while there are more susceptible ones like the recent case of Amos Yee, who has been detained in the US for being a paedophile and groups like the Falungong, whom I found out recently that the Australian media have (finally) uncovered its darker elements: https://www.abc.net.au/religion/the-abc-is-right-that-falun-gong-teachings-are-dangerous/12538058
These types, with an axe to grind, tend to actively curry the West's sympathy and help feed the "Singapore/China is bad and inhumane" narrative, typically with lies. I've been friends with practitioners of Falungong in Singapore who are normal people but I suppose like most beliefs they have their extremist groups - something Chinese (and Singapore) government will clampdown and not tolerate. And they have the public's overall approval for it, largely because of the social cost as shared above.
I guess my point is that a lot of things are hard to discern unless you have the local knowledge, and even then it is usually grey. It makes it harder that China practises heavy censorship in the media and for certain topics like Tiananmen Square.
Erm apart from Mao's redguards strangling all our family friends while my father and his father were forced to watch, I gained an interest in Vajrayan buddhism when I was 18. It's loosely about China annexing Tibet(which is massive geographically, but small in population(5 mil)) and managed to kill 500.000 tibetans, grinding 6000 temples to dust, enslaving and subject a huge amount of the population to prison and torture many of whom I have met and know in real life. Ongoing sterilzation of Tibetans is still a thing as well is the attempt to wipe out Tibetan language and culture and the literal biology of natives.
Someone who insists on defending the chinese regime at this point is just being willfully ignorant.
Sorry to hear. I just read up on the Chinese occupation of Tibet during Mao's era and it was indeed awful, nowhere close to "the great famine" their own people suffered under his time.
Here in Singapore we have our own dark history with the Japanese and my grandfather's cousin was randomly selected to be gunned down at the beach. We've made our peace and the trip to Tokyo just before Covid-19 was a wonderful one.
Anyway, thanks again for sharing. I greatly appreciate it.
Last edited:
Little of that responds to my points actually. To go through them:
- That's not the point. The point is, first, that racism against Chinese people (and anyone that 'looks Chinese' to the racists) is due to people blaming the Chinese for COVID-19. That's happening regardless of the actual origins of COVID-19 (where all scientific evidence points to China; 'inconclusive' is nonsense spread by China), and regardless of whether China could have contained its initial spread better (ultimately probably not, and it's anyway not like any other countries did better once COVID-19 reached them). And second, I have not seen support for this rise in racism anywhere. Governments and media have condemned it across the west (except for some insane right-wingers).
- Yes, there are tensions due to China's rise (but especially because the way that's happening); but no-one is clearly steering for a war, which would be extremely destructive - just as no-one (or no-one important enough) actually wanted a US-USSR war during the Cold War.
- Sure, governments follow their allies. No-one is disputing that. But you are saying that all mainstream media are propagating anti-Chinese propaganda. I know virtually Chinese media have to follow the government line, but that's not the case for media in Europe, North America, and Australia/NZ. I am not sure what the Ukraine-Russia reference is about. Media in the areas listed report on that from various perspectives, which mostly paint Russia negatively (inevitably, given its behaviour), but also includes criticism of all kinds of things happening in Ukraine.
- Only in relation to those terrorist? So you are dismissing every report about mistreatment of Uighurs? There is quite a gap between 'genocide' and 'no human rights issues', so if you are going with 'no genocide so all's good outside terrorists', then you are being either disingenuous or outright dumb. Also, China is not a country where you can freely travel wherever you want; visiting Xinjiang isn't going to prove or disprove anything.
- Chinese media are not quite equivalent to media from other places, as there is no freedom of press in China.
Forgiveness is great, but I'll just point out that China has not been defeated, left Tibet, or reversed course - so it's an ongoing problem, not something that's ready for forgiveness.
Last edited:
Mao's infliction of suffering on Tibet was just as great as those as his own people, the numbers are just less(but still very high) due to Tibet's small population vs China's 1.5 bil.
I’ve lived in “the West” almost my entire life and have never encountered this “bad Singapore” narrative you mention. Quite the opposite in fact.
I can confirm that I have never seen a negative narrative about Singapore in the Netherlands or Canada either. The overall narrative is very positive actually. Same with reporting in scientific magazines that I have read.
Last edited: