He is simply too shit to come up with something to score against the Italians. England were as threatening as a kitten in ET.
Saka 19, Sancho 21, Rashford 23. . . Why were these England’s 3rd, 4th & 5th Penalty Taker?
- Thread starter AFC NimbleThumb
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
I don't think the penalties order was an issue at all. Sterling has a terrible record, Henderson missed against Colombia in 2018, Shaw has missed for United. The only questionable one was Grealish as he has good technique but it's been said he volunteered and was up next, either way a non-issue really.
It's a penalty shoot-out, it can go either way, the more noticeable factor was the man mountain the Italians had in goal. He guessed right pretty much every time, and waited on both of Rashford and Sancho's stuttered run-ups, clearly he'd done his homework.
As has been said England should not have settled for penalties, I think Southgate will look back and regret the choices he made. Firstly only making 2 subs before the 119th minute, whilst the Italians had made 6. There's been a lot of games in a short space of time with little rotation, a lot of the players were dead on their feet whilst the Italians were fresher. Secondly, not attacking that Italian backline with the attacking subs we had. Chelleini was pushing into our half in extra-time, purely because we had no legs to attack with. Get Grealish, Rashford, Sancho on earlier and get them running at the Italian backline. I think Southgate will look back and realise it was a mistake, it's a good thing to be defensively solid, but it is a hindrance to be too afraid and thus too defensive.
It's a penalty shoot-out, it can go either way, the more noticeable factor was the man mountain the Italians had in goal. He guessed right pretty much every time, and waited on both of Rashford and Sancho's stuttered run-ups, clearly he'd done his homework.
As has been said England should not have settled for penalties, I think Southgate will look back and regret the choices he made. Firstly only making 2 subs before the 119th minute, whilst the Italians had made 6. There's been a lot of games in a short space of time with little rotation, a lot of the players were dead on their feet whilst the Italians were fresher. Secondly, not attacking that Italian backline with the attacking subs we had. Chelleini was pushing into our half in extra-time, purely because we had no legs to attack with. Get Grealish, Rashford, Sancho on earlier and get them running at the Italian backline. I think Southgate will look back and realise it was a mistake, it's a good thing to be defensively solid, but it is a hindrance to be too afraid and thus too defensive.
No team plays for penalties. Italy just got better after their equaliser.
Are people arguing that because they hit penalties against their mates in training, they should be fine taking them in the final in the Euros at the age og 19-21?
Sure if Saka and Sancho said they wanted to take the pens, atleast let them take the 2 first ones, with less pressure, you don't set a 19 year old up to take the 5th in a fecking final for his country.
I'm fine with Sancho and Rashford taking pens, but did they even touch the ball before the shootout? Give them 5-10 minutes atleast.
Saka-Sancho-Maguire-Rashford-Kane - would be a much better order to shoot in.
Sure if Saka and Sancho said they wanted to take the pens, atleast let them take the 2 first ones, with less pressure, you don't set a 19 year old up to take the 5th in a fecking final for his country.
I'm fine with Sancho and Rashford taking pens, but did they even touch the ball before the shootout? Give them 5-10 minutes atleast.
Saka-Sancho-Maguire-Rashford-Kane - would be a much better order to shoot in.
I think it's because they wanted to to take the penalties and also because they're good at penalties.
Sadly for England it turns out they're all bottlers, and the Italian keeper is good. England lost before they stept onto the pitch yet again.
Sadly for England it turns out they're all bottlers, and the Italian keeper is good. England lost before they stept onto the pitch yet again.
I can understand maybe 1 of the 3 taking one out of the first 5, say Rashford given his penalty success in some big games...I'm genuinely shocked that all 3 were in there.
Giving Rashford and Sancho 30 seconds of gametime before the biggest penalties of their careers was a ridiculous move. Even top professionals need a feel of the ball and a sense of comfort in the game before such responsibility.
Saka had a bad night all round, but the size of his bollocks stepping up is enough to absolve him of any criticism.
I knew it was curtains when Hendo walked off and wasn't included in the shootout. Literally the biggest game player there (experience not ability), a genuine leader with know-how.
Giving Rashford and Sancho 30 seconds of gametime before the biggest penalties of their careers was a ridiculous move. Even top professionals need a feel of the ball and a sense of comfort in the game before such responsibility.
Saka had a bad night all round, but the size of his bollocks stepping up is enough to absolve him of any criticism.
I knew it was curtains when Hendo walked off and wasn't included in the shootout. Literally the biggest game player there (experience not ability), a genuine leader with know-how.
Sancho and Rashford were correct choice as they are more experienced than Saka. Saka at 5th was dreadful decision. Should have been Sterling or Grealish.
I don't think there was anything wrong with bringing Rashford and Sancho onto take pens in this game.
But Southgate has had a shocker the entire tournament with his squad management. He's had his group of favourites and let everyone else out cold - so when he actually needed players to come and make a difference, they didn't have any match time at all. That's all in a tournament where he's got a stacked bench and can use 5 subs.
But Southgate has had a shocker the entire tournament with his squad management. He's had his group of favourites and let everyone else out cold - so when he actually needed players to come and make a difference, they didn't have any match time at all. That's all in a tournament where he's got a stacked bench and can use 5 subs.
First 3 choices were correct. Sancho one is questionable and Saka was a wrong choice. Is Sancho even a pen taker in club football?
Southgate got it all wrong. You just knew we scored too early and then he would stick 10 men behind the ball all game. Their goal was coming but he still didn’t make any changes.
Both Sterling and Mount were extremely poor and once again his favourite two players stayed on. Rice for Henderson was an odd change and he proved to be out of pace, pretty obvious when he hadn’t played for months. Then bringing on Saka instead of Grealish or Foden. The kid can run with the ball but has no control.
Then we get to extra time and he makes no changes right at the beginning. At this stage Mancini has made 5 substitutions, even taking off the likes of Verratti. Southgate left it so late to get Grealish on. The situation with Rashford and Sancho was a joke. Give them at least 15 minutes before letting them take penalties.
Southgate has to take the blame for the final. His decision making was just bizarre in this game. He got the formation right at the beginning but he did nothing when Mancini changed Italy’s formation. After Pickford made an incredible save I thought we were going to win only to see a 19 year old Saka step up, and my smile was wiped off my face. That decision is one of the worse I’ve ever seen. He doesn’t even take penalties for Arsenal. If anything he should have gone after Kane. Give the pressure penalty to Maguire. I am surprised Shaw didn’t take one given he scored in the Europa League final.
Both Sterling and Mount were extremely poor and once again his favourite two players stayed on. Rice for Henderson was an odd change and he proved to be out of pace, pretty obvious when he hadn’t played for months. Then bringing on Saka instead of Grealish or Foden. The kid can run with the ball but has no control.
Then we get to extra time and he makes no changes right at the beginning. At this stage Mancini has made 5 substitutions, even taking off the likes of Verratti. Southgate left it so late to get Grealish on. The situation with Rashford and Sancho was a joke. Give them at least 15 minutes before letting them take penalties.
Southgate has to take the blame for the final. His decision making was just bizarre in this game. He got the formation right at the beginning but he did nothing when Mancini changed Italy’s formation. After Pickford made an incredible save I thought we were going to win only to see a 19 year old Saka step up, and my smile was wiped off my face. That decision is one of the worse I’ve ever seen. He doesn’t even take penalties for Arsenal. If anything he should have gone after Kane. Give the pressure penalty to Maguire. I am surprised Shaw didn’t take one given he scored in the Europa League final.
Overall issue: I feel if Sancho and Rashford were to take penalties, they should have had at least 10 minutes on the field. If Sterling was not taking one, why not bring him off and keep our shape and make at least one of the subs earlier?
Its also a very different story if we are talking about players who have been playing regularly. But these guys have barely played competitively in over a month. This aspect is also critical and being overlooked.
Other issue: whilst I don’t agree Kane should be at 5, penalties 1 and 5 are the most important. So contrary to some I’m OK with Kane at 1 but then you need someone who is not 19.
Saka: admire the confidence the lad has but he is 19. He doesn’t take penalties at Arsenal. In fact has he even taken a senior team penalty? Even if he volunteered, Southgate should have applied his judgment to select someone else. Managers must make these tough decisions.
Sancho: also only 21. I can understand him taking it but still feel other more senior players should have stepped up.
Rashford: he is young but in truth an experienced penalty taker. I’m fine with him taking it. But the issue was when he was bought on. Everyone is moaning about the stutter step. But in actual fact it worked. He sent the goalkeeper the wrong way. The issue was he missed. That could be nerves. That could be being “cold” having essentially not played for over a month.
I do understand the argument that it’s penalties, you win some you lose some. And of course that is true. But you can’t then just ignore the things you can do to give yourself the best chance. Certain teams win far more then they lose. Some, like England, have always struggled. Can say it’s player technicality. Can say it’s mental pressure. Bottom line is the trends span generations so we must be doing something wrong. And I do think that evidence lies in what Southgate said. He said we picked the ones based on training and practice. Which, in my view, is absolutely the WRONG thing. Anyone can score wonderful penalties in practice. The reality is, all 11 players on the pitch are professional footballers who have the footballing ability to score a penalty into a corner or blast it. Sure some are better than others. But what really separates a class penalty taker is their mental state. We should be picking players who are mentally capable of withstanding pressure rather than those who can shoot the nicest shot.
Its also a very different story if we are talking about players who have been playing regularly. But these guys have barely played competitively in over a month. This aspect is also critical and being overlooked.
Other issue: whilst I don’t agree Kane should be at 5, penalties 1 and 5 are the most important. So contrary to some I’m OK with Kane at 1 but then you need someone who is not 19.
Saka: admire the confidence the lad has but he is 19. He doesn’t take penalties at Arsenal. In fact has he even taken a senior team penalty? Even if he volunteered, Southgate should have applied his judgment to select someone else. Managers must make these tough decisions.
Sancho: also only 21. I can understand him taking it but still feel other more senior players should have stepped up.
Rashford: he is young but in truth an experienced penalty taker. I’m fine with him taking it. But the issue was when he was bought on. Everyone is moaning about the stutter step. But in actual fact it worked. He sent the goalkeeper the wrong way. The issue was he missed. That could be nerves. That could be being “cold” having essentially not played for over a month.
I do understand the argument that it’s penalties, you win some you lose some. And of course that is true. But you can’t then just ignore the things you can do to give yourself the best chance. Certain teams win far more then they lose. Some, like England, have always struggled. Can say it’s player technicality. Can say it’s mental pressure. Bottom line is the trends span generations so we must be doing something wrong. And I do think that evidence lies in what Southgate said. He said we picked the ones based on training and practice. Which, in my view, is absolutely the WRONG thing. Anyone can score wonderful penalties in practice. The reality is, all 11 players on the pitch are professional footballers who have the footballing ability to score a penalty into a corner or blast it. Sure some are better than others. But what really separates a class penalty taker is their mental state. We should be picking players who are mentally capable of withstanding pressure rather than those who can shoot the nicest shot.
Who do you think should've taken them instead?
Personally I would always prefer a confident player who wants to take one over a player who has scored so many in training.
Southgate couldve let those who fancied it take them and if they missed he would be slated for not letting the goal scorers take them.
Penalties are penalties.
Who would've though maguire would do that and that jorginho would miss?
Others have explained my thoughts pretty well so I won't repeat, will just try and add a few new points.
Rashford - been terrible all season, whether it is injury or focusing on the kids he has been so wide of the mark. I actually respected Southgate for not using him this tournament, we have seen Ole refuse to bench him but he quite rightly didn't get game time. I also think Southgate was right to bring him on for a penalty, he has been fine in high pressure shootouts before. Only slight problem is that he should have had a few more minutes to get a feel of the game. As a professional though I consider it pretty poor to not hit the target. Hopefully now he has his operation and a rest and comes back as a footballer first and foremost.
Sancho - I have never seen him take a pen and given the minutes he has been afforded in the tournament he shouldn't be 4th up out of those available.
Saka - feel for the kid, despite what has happened in training pen 1 and pen 5 are the ones with the most pressure. Surely experience should be on those.
Rashford - been terrible all season, whether it is injury or focusing on the kids he has been so wide of the mark. I actually respected Southgate for not using him this tournament, we have seen Ole refuse to bench him but he quite rightly didn't get game time. I also think Southgate was right to bring him on for a penalty, he has been fine in high pressure shootouts before. Only slight problem is that he should have had a few more minutes to get a feel of the game. As a professional though I consider it pretty poor to not hit the target. Hopefully now he has his operation and a rest and comes back as a footballer first and foremost.
Sancho - I have never seen him take a pen and given the minutes he has been afforded in the tournament he shouldn't be 4th up out of those available.
Saka - feel for the kid, despite what has happened in training pen 1 and pen 5 are the ones with the most pressure. Surely experience should be on those.
I was saying this during the group games, why weren’t we using the subs entirely.
It was played down as we were winning but I remember the commentator during Italy’s first game saying Mancini went to the 1990 World Cup, didn’t play a minute & hated it so his intention was to try to give every player minutes on the pitch [I think only one sub keeper may not have appeared].
Last night reminded me of how England’s perceived squad depth is a bit like how I see United’s, it’s all well & good having players to list in case of emergency but when your manager doesn’t rate/trust them in key moments it shows in their play.
The Saka one is bizarre. He had an awful game and he’s never taken a senior penalty before and then he had to take a penalty to keep you in the game.
Sorry I wrote that a little wrong. I meant until half time he did.
Exactly.
Wow, I guess he'd been banging them in, in training but that's still something.No matter if the shootout had been going well, that 5th one was always going to be just unbelievably pressured. I won't ever be able to understand having Saka take it. Appalling management.
Yeah that's fair enough - Southgate is pretty good at setting the team up, he's just awful at managing games and wasted the talent in his squad by running his favourites into the ground.
Contrast that with Mancini who used every member of his squad, and it becomes obvious why they had so much more energy!
He was playing for a draw for the vast majority of that game. The tactics after the goal and even their equaliser was so negative - barely gave any chance for the lads to ever extend that lead or go forward to get the winner.
Not to mention the mindset he instilled in the players once the goal went in, so they get sucked into playing on the back foot.
Only during extra time was there some attempt to win the game again but it was too little to late.
Southgate reminds me of Ole - decent manager, built a great environment for the players and his teams are very hard to beat but heavily reliant on certain players for that spark in attack. Once they get the lead usually sit on it and very rarely can they control a game and outplay a top side without resorting to counter attack tactics.
Those sort of managers will always improve a side which has zero expectations but once the side is stacked with talent and wants to get over a certain threshold in the game, their ineptitude in midfield patterns of play will come back to haunt them.
One hopes they can evolve and master that aspect of their tactical repertoire but it isn’t easy and needs to be a willingness on their part to do so. At least Ole can buy his way out of these midfield issues.
Both these guys get compared to Mourinho or Italian managers but prime Mourinho didn’t neglect midfield play, he could play on the front foot when needed and even in a defensive set up he always has a threat on the counter - his midfield was always set up to beat the press and be a consistent conduit and feeder for the attack. Only post Madrid did he increasingly begin to neglect the midfield.
Same with Italians, very rarely are their so called negative sides unable to pass out from the back or get the ball out of their defensive third even when starting from the low block - their very smart and efficient in possession - they don’t do hoof ball tactics.
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I'm pretty sure those that fancied them did take them. There's no way if the likes of Sterling and Henderson, our more senior players, had turned to Southgate and told him they wanted it he'd of said no and forced Saka etc to step up.
Southgate has said what he has to deflect. It's shades of Ince not stepping up ahead of Southgate in 96 for me. Sterling and Henderson should be embarrassed.
Saka was the only weird one
No idea why you even mention Rashord's age, OP. One of the most experienced PK takers on the team
No idea why you even mention Rashord's age, OP. One of the most experienced PK takers on the team
Because he took a right back off and left Sterling on he was completely ineffective.
If he wasn't hitting one, talk him off at half Time of ET and give rashy 15 mins, heck he might nick a goal.
The story doesn't add up. He had to think grealish and sterling were in his 5 when he subbed a rb and re subbed Henderson
I'd even argue maguire is weird.
I can't believe maguire is ahead of Sterling grealish hendo heck even Shaw.
Great pen though.
Great fortitude from him to come back from that sending off and bang in a pen.
I've not even read or watched post match interviews from Southgate and Co because I'm still getting over it so I don't know what the rhyme or reason was for the pen takers.
I did trust southgates judge of character more than my own anyway given how well he knows these players.
I dont think anyone should be embarrassed tbh mate. The pressure on those players would've been physically weighing them down. I'd rather sterling just admit he's flapping it and would rather give it to someone else.
Penalties are just horrible no matter how you look at it. Its like when ronaldo missed in Moscow. I thought that's it. Our best player, most confident, the main guy.
Rashford is 23 and has been a first team regular at Manchester United for five seasons. Can't really be classed as a youngster anymore. He's at an age where he can be expected to step up for these.
Sancho, as a huge talent with a good amount of experience with big games at the highest level, is a profile where, if he'd been involved more and was high on confidence, you could pick him as 4th choice. But that's not the situation.
Saka is literally a teenager who played his first game for England 9 months ago. And he's put up for the most high pressure penalty any of them would ever kick in their careers as the 5th taker.
It's mad and shows that Southgate was just making up his own method for the penalty selection and hoping he was being dead smart about it.
Sancho, as a huge talent with a good amount of experience with big games at the highest level, is a profile where, if he'd been involved more and was high on confidence, you could pick him as 4th choice. But that's not the situation.
Saka is literally a teenager who played his first game for England 9 months ago. And he's put up for the most high pressure penalty any of them would ever kick in their careers as the 5th taker.
It's mad and shows that Southgate was just making up his own method for the penalty selection and hoping he was being dead smart about it.
Trying to win the game game might mean risking losing the game. Ergo...
I don't really know about the rights or wrongs of the penalty takers and the order they took them. But Saka, in particular, has my respect and sympathy. To step up like that at 19... huge respect.
Sancho and Saka bottled it. Rashford's was plain unlucky/poor execution at the end after sending the GK the other way, depending on how you look at it.
Saka has not even taken a penalty for Arsenal and by the game he was having, he should not have taken one in the top 5.
That's crazy!
surely you'd go for anyone then, even Shaw.Yes because getting the penalty on target is clearly more of a bottle job than actually not hitting the target. Oh there is nothing better than an English defeat. Keep the memes coming.
Rashford's stuttering runup and idea of the penalty doesn't show a player who is mentally scared of the occasion. Just a few cms different, it would have been the best penalty of the night. Whereas Sancho and Saka just hit and prayed, at a very savable height and distance from the GK, the very thing you'd do if you are not mentally prepared.
About your second sentence, I have no clue what it means in relation to my post. While I am no england team fan, I am crestfallen that our two players missed the penalty and really feel bad for them.
That's just mad.
Goes to show that Southgate really has no idea what makes a good penalty taker. You'd have thought he of all people would know that you can't compare what players do in training to actually stepping up to one in a game like this. Figures.
Deary me. So how does this work then. Do you support united when they play in England with English fans and English players yet love seeing the England team with united players playing lose?
Honestly how does it work? I'm trying to imagine myself loathing a country so much yet supporting a club based in that country.
It's fascinating.
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Great thread on the psychologically of penalties. Younger players who are fresher have a higher percentage of successful kicks but I still think Southgate needed to give Sancho and Rashford at least ten minutes in the game to build their confidence and lessen the pressure on them.
I think being critical of asking Rashford to take a penalty is a bit of a stretch. The lad has played 300 senior games as a forward for Manchester Utd and England and has taken plenty of pressure penalties.
The bizarre one for me was letting Saka take the 5th after we had just been reprieved.
The bizarre one for me was letting Saka take the 5th after we had just been reprieved.
Do some people really believe that Southgate chose Saka to take one over the likes of Sterling and Grealish? You honestly think it's likely that those two said they want one but Southgate told them Saka's taking it?
Putting Saka last was the wrong call but let's face the reality of it, some of our more senior players shirked the responsibility and let a 19 year old carry the can.
Putting Saka last was the wrong call but let's face the reality of it, some of our more senior players shirked the responsibility and let a 19 year old carry the can.