We are an awfully coached team

[InfiniteBoredom]

Man,that's depressing. Basically , result wise we haven't improved at all ?

It's pretty evident, no? We havent even reached the 80 pts mark in the league like we did under Mourinho. In his 2 full seasons here, Mourinho won a League Cup, Europa League, get to a FAC final, and 1/16 CL, which wasnt exactly great, but you compare it with failing to get out of CL group, trounced out of all cups and a respective 66/74 pts over two full league season then theres no comparison really.

The 'he had to pick up such a mess' is also massively overblown. Conte got a similar mess at Chelsea and went and won the league in his first season, somehow our manager is the only one who can buy Maguire, AWB, Sancho, Dan James, Bruno, Varane, Ronaldo for a combined 400m and achieve consecutive top 4th finishes like that is the be all and end all.

 

[Marwood]

From where i sit i dont think it's tactical nous getting us those extra points though. It was mostly down to Bruno pulling something out of the bag last season. We are not changing systems or anything like that. We are just terrible at conceding early, one of the worst in the league (just 5 worse than us), even when we are a better team with better players. It's expected that we would go on to win many of those games with the players we have.

I think you've reached that stage I was at with Mourinho. Where its painful to give the manager any credit for anything.

For any Ole supporters, I am actually curious as to what you believe the solution to the current problem is? It seems like we all agree we have a decent squad, albeit one with one or two problems. However, I think its generally accepted its a squad with the most quality all over since SAF retired. So if not Ole, then what?

The passing ability of this quad is massively overrated and barely mentioned in the myriad of complaints you see on here.

So the solution to our biggest problem is pretty simple. Get more players who can look after the ball and that's on Ole. He should have been sorting this a good while ago.

 

[Foxbatt]

I mean, that’s exactly where some fans are. At least before it was ”we just need a Varane”, or ”if we only signed Sancho”. Now the one player that will change everything is Declan fecking Rice

Forget about Declan Rice We can sign Mathew Noodles and nothing will change.

 

[stw2022]

It was right to sack Mourinho but this idea that going from a manager that won two trophies in two and a half seasons including one second place finish to a manager who also has one second place finish but has won the square root of feck all represents some kind of major progress we should be loathed to abandon never made sense to me

 

[MichaelRed]

Funny because we beat City last season.

Once. In a league game at the end of the season when the league was already over. We also lost to them in a semi-final in a game that mattered. Glory Glory Man United. MY MANAGER.

 

[UnitedSofa]

It was right to sack Mourinho but this idea that going from a manager that won two trophies in two and a half seasons including one second place finish to a manager who also has one second place finish but has won the square root of feck all represents some kind of major progress we should be loathed to abandon never made sense to me

Thing is if Ole had taken United to 3 4th place finishes this place would be happy with a 2nd place.

 

[Deery]

Once. In a league game at the end of the season when the league was already over. We also lost to them in a semi-final in a game that mattered. Glory Glory Man United. MY MANAGER.

So we do know how to beat them then or do you need Klopp to waffle on for 5 minutes about how he packed the midfield to understand that?

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

Once. In a league game at the end of the season when the league was already over. We also lost to them in a semi-final in a game that mattered. Glory Glory Man United. MY MANAGER.

But, but, it was ‘only’ the League Cup.

 

[Foxbatt]

So we do know how to beat them then or do you need Klopp to waffle on for 5 minutes about how he packed the midfield to understand that?

SAF said the league is a marathon and not a sprint. So its pointless if we do not win the league even if we beat them in a one off. I would rather lose to them and win the league than win a one off and not win the League.
Also Klopp has earned the right to waffle on as he has won the CL and the PL.

 

[ayushreddevil9]

So we do know how to beat them then or do you need Klopp to waffle on for 5 minutes about how he packed the midfield to understand that?

If we do know how to beat them then wtf were we doing in the games that mattered?

 

[Deery]

SAF said the league is a marathon and not a sprint. So its pointless if we do not win the league even if we beat them in a one off. I would rather lose to them and win the league than win a one off and not win the League.
Also Klopp has earned the right to waffle on as he has won the CL and the PL.

Why don’t you marry him then.

If we do know how to beat them then wtf were we doing in the games that mattered?

Games or game? One game in the LC a competition half the Caf are happy to be out of anyway…

 

[elmo]

But, but, it was ‘only’ the League Cup.

I swear some of our fans here are behaving like Poch fanboys and think that the league cup is below us.

 

[ayushreddevil9]

Why don’t you marry him then.

Games or game? One game in the LC a competition half the Caf are happy to be out of anyway…

Wonderful way of making an argument

Dumped out of LC twice losing 2 times out of 3. 1 win was during the time when the tie was already done and dusted (city beat us 3-1 at OT).

 

[Deery]

Wonderful way of making an argument

Dumped out of LC twice losing 2 times out of 3. 1 win was during the time when the tie was already done and dusted (city beat us 3-1 at OT).

We also beat them 2-1 in the league that season and 1-0 in the return leg.

City won the first game 3-1 and we had a lot of injuries if I remember right so hardly surprising they went through.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

We beat City home and away in the league, But supposedly the loss to them in a league cup semi counted more

 

[largelyworried]

We beat City home and away in the league, But supposedly the loss to them in a league cup semi counted more

We drew 0-0 at home.

 

[Micky Targaryen]

Why the feck are we discussing how many times we've beat City or Liverpool? Should we also discuss how many trophies they've won in recent years too compared to us? Is there some top 4 league trophy that I'm missing? The league is a marathon, not a game-raising competition.

Embarrassing. This used to be the stuff we mock RAWK for.

 

[Siorac]

Just a reminder that our overall points per match under Mourinho was 1.97 from 144 games. It’s 1.83 from 142 games since Ole became permanent manager (1.89 factoring in his time as interim as well, from 161 games).

Our average goals scored under Mourinho was 1.74, 0.9 conceded, for a GD of 0.84. Our average goals scored under Mourinho was 1.74, 0.9 conceded, for a GD of 0.84. Since Ole became permanent manager, his average is 1.92 scored and 1.14 conceded, for an average goal difference of 0.78.

Mourinho won two trophies as well. I am not saying Mourinho was the right fit but this revisionism that we are soooo much better now is nonsense. Things feel positive because we removed Mou and his constant negativity, but we get less points per game, and while we score a bit more, we concede more which more than negates the extra goals. This is after spending 100s of millions on top of what we had spent already. We still have no recognizable direction and are completely clueless when it matters (finals and semifinals)

This is exactly why I'm banging the drum that these stats are more informative than simple league position which heavily depends on how other teams perform. In essence, we're still looking like a 65-75 point team and that's not going to be enough to be even near the league title.

 

[captaincantona]

We also beat them 2-1 in the league that season and 1-0 in the return leg.

City won the first game 3-1 and we had a lot of injuries if I remember right so hardly surprising they went through.

Again everyone talking about matches as if they don’t watch them and just look at score lines. We play counter attacking football against top sides with 2 deep sitting 6s and hope the front 4 can grab us something. We are/were an excellent counterattacking side. That’s not the arguement. The arguement is that aside from the 6 possibly 8 games a season- ie.the other 40 or so...we can’t play on the counter attack because we are supposed to be Man Utd and we are supposed to dominate those games....we don’t...cause Ole and his team have not once shown in 3 years anything to suggest that he has a plan or structure or idea of how to break down deep sitting teams except for hoping one of the lads can produce.

Any other take on this should provide a list of quality performances against non top 4 sides as proof of their arguement or they should stop talking. Sick of the bullshit pointing at league tables. We have eyes...and we are a dire watch unless we hand over the ball...slow and clueless. If that’s not on the coaching team then tell me who it’s on and I’ll be upset at them instead.

 

[Deery]

Again everyone talking about matches as if they don’t watch them and just look at score lines. We play counter attacking football against top sides with 2 deep sitting 6s and hope the front 4 can grab us something. We are/were an excellent counterattacking side. That’s not the arguement. The arguement is that aside from the 6 possibly 8 games a season- ie.the other 40 or so...we can’t play on the counter attack because we are supposed to be Man Utd and we are supposed to dominate those games....we don’t...cause Ole and his team have not once shown in 3 years anything to suggest that he has a plan or structure or idea of how to break down deep sitting teams except for hoping one of the lads can produce.

Any other take on this should provide a list of quality performances against non top 4 sides as proof of their arguement or they should stop talking. Sick of the bullshit pointing at league tables. We have eyes...and we are a dire watch unless we hand over the ball...slow and clueless. If that’s not on the coaching team then tell me who it’s on and I’ll be upset at them instead.

I do watch the matches maybe you should watch the matches more closely this season before coming in a thread and shouting off about a style of play that has changed this season, we haven’t deployed two sitting midfielders this season and have played front foot football and dominated possession. So what do you want to play counter attack which I assume you know was a favourite tactic of early Fergie or continue with a progressive style until it clicks?

And we are talking about results because a guy said we haven’t a scooby about beating City because Klopp made an interview saying he packed midfield and I pointed out we did as we have beat them numerous times.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

I swear some of our fans here are behaving like Poch fanboys and think that the league cup is below us.

Whenever we lose it’s always; ‘it was only the Europa League’, ‘it was only one league game’, ‘it’s only the FA Cup’. It’s used as a defence mechanism for the manager, people are writing off tournaments we lose in with our manager trying his hardest, yet failing to win.

 

[Womp]

Whenever we lose it’s always; ‘it was only the Europa League’, ‘it was only one league game’, ‘it’s only the FA Cup’. It’s used as a defence mechanism for the manager, people are writing off tournaments we lose in with our manager trying his hardest, yet failing to win.

Especially when they make it out as if the CL and the EPL are the only acceptable trophies for us, yet we look miles off being good enough for the EPL and are already looking like we may struggle in our CL group which consists of teams which should be deemed quite 'easy' for a tournament like the CL.

Funny stuff.

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

Whenever we lose it’s always; ‘it was only the Europa League’, ‘it was only one league game’, ‘it’s only the FA Cup’. It’s used as a defence mechanism for the manager, people are writing off tournaments we lose in with our manager trying his hardest, yet failing to win.

Truth be told, he really should of been trying to win the Carabao Cup this year. Even if it was just to get a trophy under his belt (albeit a minor one, but still).

 

[captaincantona]

I do watch the matches maybe you should watch the matches more closely this season before coming in a thread and shouting off about a style of play that has changed this season, we haven’t deployed two sitting midfielders this season and have played front foot football and dominated possession. So what do you want to play counter attack which I assume you know was a favourite tactic of early Fergie or continue with a progressive style until it clicks?

And we are talking about results because a guy said we haven’t a scooby about beating City because Klopp made an interview saying he packed midfield and I pointed out we did as we have beat them numerous times.

Read what I wrote before jumping.I said nothing about playing differently this season! Said nothing about dominating possession..said nothing about wanting to play counter attacking football against anyone! ...I made a statement- I said we play counter attacking football against TOP sides...and it’s the only time we look like a proper team with a strong idea of what we are supposed to be doing! we haven’t played top sides yet so haven’t been playing counter attacking football...which is the only type of football we can play effectively!

In short, we have never been effective under Ole outside of counter attacking. This season is no different to any other season. By looking at league finishes and possession stats you ignore the fact that through the tried and tested method of just looking at football matches...we are still completely ineffective with the ball ...and shown no sign at all of gelling or improving.

It is therefore perfectly fine to assume that the current manger/set of coaches are struggling to implement a more effective way of breaking teams down...even though they have had plenty of time...

 

[Deery]

Read what I wrote before jumping.I said nothing about playing differently this season! Said nothing about dominating possession..said nothing about wanting to play counter attacking football against anyone! ...I made a statement- I said we play counter attacking football against TOP sides...and it’s the only time we look like a proper team with a strong idea of what we are supposed to be doing! we haven’t played top sides yet so haven’t been playing counter attacking football...which is the only type of football we can play effectively!

In short, we have never been effective under Ole outside of counter attacking. This season is no different to any other season. By looking at league finishes and possession stats you ignore the fact that through the tried and tested method of just looking at football matches...we are still completely ineffective with the ball ...and shown no sign at all of gelling or improving.

It is therefore perfectly fine to assume that the current manger/set of coaches are struggling to implement a more effective way of breaking teams down...even though they have had plenty of time...

It’s early days yet we still have to bed players in, we must give it time.

 

[Andycoleno9]

Olein guys joke with us (who want him out) how we talk about patterns of play. Guys, how you can deny that we don't have nearly any pattern of play? Look at City, Chelsea, Liverpool. They look nearly perfect on the pitch. Chelsea killing with high tempo and control, City with movement and 1000 passes and Liverpool have textbook transition. What do we have? We play 50:50 game vs any club. Against Villa, Everton and WH, when we needed a goal, we could not keep the ball. Against Villa we barely created a chance in 2nd half and played in low block. Against Everton, after they scored, we didn't pushed them in their penalty box. Even under Jose in his 3rd meltdown season, when we needed a goal we were dominated opposition. Now we play with same style no matter is it 0:0, 0:1 or 1:0.
After 3 years in charge and top squad, you would surely expect that we look far better on the pitch?

 

[UnitedSofa]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Would show why we were allegedly after Rice in the summer, would see a change in formation. Which is why the DM is so important to get in, would be interesting to see if we go after anyone in Jan.

 

[Sanchez7]

Just a reminder that our overall points per match under Mourinho was 1.97 from 144 games. It’s 1.83 from 142 games since Ole became permanent manager (1.89 factoring in his time as interim as well, from 161 games).

Our average goals scored under Mourinho was 1.74, 0.9 conceded, for a GD of 0.84. Our average goals scored under Mourinho was 1.74, 0.9 conceded, for a GD of 0.84. Since Ole became permanent manager, his average is 1.92 scored and 1.14 conceded, for an average goal difference of 0.78.

Mourinho won two trophies as well. I am not saying Mourinho was the right fit but this revisionism that we are soooo much better now is nonsense. Things feel positive because we removed Mou and his constant negativity, but we get less points per game, and while we score a bit more, we concede more which more than negates the extra goals. This is after spending 100s of millions on top of what we had spent already. We still have no recognizable direction and are completely clueless when it matters (finals and semifinals)

That's damning. Ole has been backed by the board and for all his supposed progress i.e mentality change, better squad harmony, fitness etc .. we pretty much have nothing to show for it statistically. He is clearly a good man manager and has stabilised things but this is a results business .. or at least it is at most clubs.

 

[Andycoleno9]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Would show why we were allegedly after Rice in the summer, would see a change in formation. Which is why the DM is so important to get in, would be interesting to see if we go after anyone in Jan.

Why not Donny? I struggle to see what McT can and Donny can't. Plus Donny is already great on the ball.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

We beat City home and away in the league, But supposedly the loss to them in a league cup semi counted more

It was in Ole's first full season that we did the double over them in the league. Ole's record against Pep in the PL is three wins, one draw and one loss.

 

[sewey89]

It was in Ole's first full season that we did the double over them in the league. Ole's record against Pep in the PL is three wins and one draw.

In the last two seasons it is, yeah.

Towards the end of 2018/19 City beat us 2-0 at Old Trafford. So the record is P5 W3 D1 L1

 

[largelyworried]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Would show why we were allegedly after Rice in the summer, would see a change in formation. Which is why the DM is so important to get in, would be interesting to see if we go after anyone in Jan.

If you watch Fabinho at Liverpool, he's outstanding in that position, but Liverpool still put at least one hard worker in midfield ahead of him, often two. They press from the front to win the ball back and prevent the counter. City have fewer hard workers (relatively speaking), but Pep protects them in a different way, by always having an extra man and a very coordinated press. Sometimes that's a false 9, other times its inverted wingers, sometimes its full backs that join the midfield.

For us, having a single DM type figure will always be a struggle if we're also going to play Bruno & Pogba ahead, along with Rashford & Sancho/Greenwood out wide and Ronaldo sitting in the box up front. There's no balance whatsoever in that kind of formation. A front five, all of whom are prone to risky passes/dribbles, none of whom are that great at defensive actions and a single DM in front of the back four? That feels like it'll just make us even more porous.

We of course desperately need a new DM. However I feel like its become the "new CB" vibe that we had last year, thinking that would fix our problems. Getting a truly world-class CB has made little difference to our defence, partly because of the lack of DM to be fair, but also because the problem was more than just personnel.

 

[captaincantona]

It was in Ole's first full season that we did the double over them in the league. Ole's record against Pep in the PL is three wins and one draw.

Records like that count for little. We set up defensively against City, Pool, Chelsea, PSG and anyone else who is remotely decent. We counter attack well and usually are close to getting some sort of result. Problem is, that’s about 1/6 of the season. The other 5/6 we are clueless. In addition, as Manchester United, with Pogba, Ronaldo, Varane, Sancho, Bruno, Rashford, Shaw and McGuire in the team etc...there is surely an issue with saying “our squad matches yours for quality- but we still can’t play football as well as you- so here’s the ball we are going to catch you out on the break instead to get a result”...

we have to be looking to compete with the best on an equal footing as it is no longer a case of our squad not being up to it. Look at City/PSG or Pool/City in the last week or so or Chelsea/Pool CL final or Bayern/Barca in days gone by, Poch spurs v City and Liverpool...two big teams slapping their balls on the table and going toe to toe to see who’s better. I don’t mind Utd Counter attacking once in a while or when injuries and other considerations come into it but we don’t have an excuse with this group of players to still be counter attacking against every big side.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

In the last two seasons it is, yeah.

Towards the end of 2018/19 City beat us 2-0 at Old Trafford. So the record is P5 W3 D1 L1

You're right. I forgot about that game.

 

[Abraxas]

Why not Donny? I struggle to see what McT can and Donny can't. Plus Donny is already great on the ball.

VDB isn't "great" on the ball, or at least that seems a massive exaggeration. Xabi Alonso was great on the ball, Paul Scholes was great on the ball, Luka Modric is great on the ball, Jorginho or Verratti are great on the ball.

VDB is decent on the ball, why should we go any further than that when he's only put in a couple of 7/10s in his entire Utd career and the rest has been mediocrity. No idea where this stuff on VDB comes from.

 

[Andycoleno9]

VDB isn't "great" on the ball, or at least that seems a massive exaggeration. Xabi Alonso was great on the ball, Paul Scholes was great on the ball, Luka Modric is great on the ball, Jorginho or Verratti are great on the ball.

VDB is decent on the ball, why should we go any further than that when he's only put in a couple of 7/10s in his entire Utd career and the rest has been mediocrity. No idea where this stuff on VDB comes from.

He played on no10 which he is not. Give him few games on no6 and then lets see is he good or not.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

VDB isn't "great" on the ball, or at least that seems a massive exaggeration. Xabi Alonso was great on the ball, Paul Scholes was great on the ball, Luka Modric is great on the ball, Jorginho or Verratti are great on the ball.

VDB is decent on the ball, why should we go any further than that when he's only put in a couple of 7/10s in his entire Utd career and the rest has been mediocrity. No idea where this stuff on VDB comes from.

I agree. VDB is merely tidy on the ball. The whole 'he's great on the ball' thing is more due to the likes of Mctominay being so basic in their on-the-ball work and VDB's Ajax background. Otherwise, the guy has shown no great ability on the ball at all, which isn't surprising given he was more of a Lampard type goalscorer for his previous club. And even if he has more quality on the ball than the likes of Mctominay or Fred, they are right now mentally stronger than him based on his displays.

I just think it was a really really poor signing that should never have been made.

 

[Ixion]

And even if he has more quality on the ball than the likes of Mctominay or Fred, they are right now mentally stronger than him based on his displays.

What about based on THEIR displays? They're playing shit.

 

[largelyworried]

VDB isn't "great" on the ball, or at least that seems a massive exaggeration. Xabi Alonso was great on the ball, Paul Scholes was great on the ball, Luka Modric is great on the ball, Jorginho or Verratti are great on the ball.

VDB is decent on the ball, why should we go any further than that when he's only put in a couple of 7/10s in his entire Utd career and the rest has been mediocrity. No idea where this stuff on VDB comes from.

Well I agree that VDB hasn't got much to go in his United career but our current options are dire so far. Its hard to imagine that he could be worse than what we've seen from Fred and McT so far this season. If nothing else, it could be another body to use until we get an upgrade in. After all, if McFred are struggling now, think how they'll be on the run-in, after 40 more games with no rotation.

 

[passtheball]

I agree. VDB is merely tidy on the ball. The whole 'he's great on the ball' thing is more due to the likes of Mctominay being so basic in their on-the-ball work and VDB's Ajax background. Otherwise, the guy has shown no great ability on the ball at all, which isn't surprising given he was more of a Lampard type goalscorer for his previous club. And even if he has more quality on the ball than the likes of Mctominay or Fred, they are right now mentally stronger than him based on his displays.

I just think it was a really really poor signing that should never have been made.

Have to disagree with this. VdB worked superbly in Ajax's system because as a team they know how to stretch opponents with one-touch football (something that almost every successful team does, including United teams of old). He has a good understanding of space, and he has the technical skills to hold the ball.

Instead of McTominay, it should be VdB who Carrick and McKena groom for the no. 6 role. VdB can play great midfield splitting passes in the same way as Carrick himself did. Carrick was not a very physical player; he didn't tackle but he was a great DM because of his positioning and his eye for a pass.

There was a reason why Bayern and Real were interested in VdB. Sure, he is a systems player, but then football is a systems game. What other kind of player should there be? Ole has bludgeoned our expectations of what a team should be like, as he relies so much on individual brilliance.

Get a elite (or half-decent even) manager in and see the likes of VdB and Sancho flourish.