For anyone new to F1, this is how you're penalized if you aren't the FIA's favorite:
By that standard Max should sit out the last 3 races
By that standard Max should sit out the last 3 races
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F1 2021 Season
- Thread starter pauldyson1uk
- Start date
Formula 1 sporting director Steve Nielsen says construction at the Jeddah Corniche Circuit is still ongoing, with work expected to go "down to the wire" ahead of the December 5 inaugural event in Saudi Arabia.
A recent visit to the city on the Red Sea by members of F1's broadcast team revealed an infrastructure and pit complex that appeared shockingly behind schedule.
FIA race director Michael Masi who had also visited the site to see for himself the work in progress insisted that Jeddah's circuit would be completed on time.
Nielsen, who is involved in the approval process of the track, is also confident that the venue will be up and running in time for Saud Arabia's big F1 first.
"It's an ambitious project, it will be a great facility," Nielson told Motorsport.com. "They're up against it, they are. But they're literally working 24/7 as they have been for quite a long time now.
"I saw some more photos this morning, and they've made huge progress. But still a lot to do.
Fresh Tarmac is going to be interesting, does ot not leech oil for a while after it has been put down ?
A recent visit to the city on the Red Sea by members of F1's broadcast team revealed an infrastructure and pit complex that appeared shockingly behind schedule.
FIA race director Michael Masi who had also visited the site to see for himself the work in progress insisted that Jeddah's circuit would be completed on time.
Nielsen, who is involved in the approval process of the track, is also confident that the venue will be up and running in time for Saud Arabia's big F1 first.
"It's an ambitious project, it will be a great facility," Nielson told Motorsport.com. "They're up against it, they are. But they're literally working 24/7 as they have been for quite a long time now.
"I saw some more photos this morning, and they've made huge progress. But still a lot to do.
Fresh Tarmac is going to be interesting, does ot not leech oil for a while after it has been put down ?
Imagine if the title comes down to a track not being ready in time.
They'll simply put out the safety car and drive 2 circles around Jeddah and call that a race
.Jokes aside has there ever been a street circuit other than Monaco where construction didn't take until the last second? I'm sure we'll be fine.
would at lest even out the spa debcle if hamilton and verstppens positions were swapped from spaThey'll simply put out the safety car and drive 2 circles around Jeddah and call that a race
Jokes aside has there ever been a street circuit other than Monaco where construction didn't take until the last second? I'm sure we'll be fine.
I think thats been an issue before - as has high tyre degradation at recently laid circuits
It will be a night race as well I think so lower track temps
Getting the right tyre data and making the right calculations (guesses) as to how the track will bed in over the weekend as rubber starts to go down on it will be a key factor and I can imagine a lot of teams end up running with split strategy's as there is probably going to me a fairly high margin of guesswork in the strategy decisions... further complicated by it looking like a pretty tough circuit to pass on (lots of high speed corners so hard to get close) plus the undercut might be pretty advantageous but balanced with not wanting to having to tip toe around a cooling circuit (that could be slippy) with ruined tyres
Verstappen has to see a time penalty. For anyone saying it's unfair because he didn't have a chance to make up the 5 seconds in the race, he 100% did.
He knows what he did, just as he knows what he's doing when cheating pretty much every week these days. He would've known what the onboard footage was going to show after the race and had ample time to make up the 5 seconds from there on in.
If F1 doesn't stop enabling his behaviour, somebody is going to get seriously hurt.
He knows what he did, just as he knows what he's doing when cheating pretty much every week these days. He would've known what the onboard footage was going to show after the race and had ample time to make up the 5 seconds from there on in.
If F1 doesn't stop enabling his behaviour, somebody is going to get seriously hurt.
Who cares about a great facility - what about a great track for feck sake. We don't get enough of those with these new developments.
I hope the Saudi race is an utter failure and they never ever have another event there.
Even if it is they will still have a GP there as the street circuit is only a temporary home whilst they build a new permanent circuit.
https://drivetribe.com/p/track-talk...Ybe0RKOeFnuFzti-6g?iid=b-v1itu2R9CsWY2ODx49LA
Bahrain, Qatar, Saudi and Abu Dhabi are on the calendar till the oil wells / sovereign wealth funds run dry
I would be over the moon if the saudi track is not ready and they switch to bahrain short layout. That would be so much fun for the finale of the season. But it wont happen. Saudi will have he track ready on time. Throw money and illegal slave labour at it.
Could not agree more with this.
When he is under severe pressure or does not get his own way, he has a habit of driving too aggressively. And in motor racing, that is definitely a no no.
But he is fully supported by his RB team and so he believes that everything he does is perfectly acceptable.
If Max wins the title based on the points he got in Spa it will be an awful end to a brilliant season
yeah I dnt mind who wins but plese dont let it come down to the fact that it seems they didnt want to refund the racegoers at spa so tiptoed round in formation for just long enough to save themselves some money
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Considering Red Bull's wings flexed for about 4 seasons during Vettel's dominance, I will never have any sympathy for Karen Horner in any matter.
I find him to be an insufferable prick, moaning all the time.
Just think what he would have said if it was the other way round at Brazil and Lewis had forced Max off !
Max wouldn't have given way so it would have been a highspeed crash and Horner would have wanted Lewis banned for it.
From what Masi said the other day the only way to get a penalty for Max is to stay on the racing line and let him hit you.
Fine margins. It has been a gripping season. And it is perfectly possible that that scenario could end up as a decider.
The last 3 will hopefully be a straight fight between Red Bull and Mercedes and Max with his 14 point lead and Lewis.
Just hope it is a fair outcome with racing being the decider and not some kind of anomaly.
Pause at 0:47. He's already past the apex and he's still on the brakes and turning in. He's obviously braked too late in order to try and outbrake but failed, missing the corner and pushing off Lewis as a result. Stewards should have told Max to give Lewis the position but they fecked up and said no investigation necessary. That's the big thing here. The question isn't whether or not Max pushed Lewis off, because it's obvious that's what happened (though I think it's ridiculous to say he was trying to crash into Lewis, if that's what he wanted to do he wouldn't have turned in at all and just locked up his brakes and went "oops"
He was actually accelerating when straightening out to push of Lewis. Bonkers. The cheek to call that racing. I hope someone does that to Horner on the highway
). The big question is what would be a fair way to handle this as the stewards fecked up by saying no investigation necessary to Max didn't bother to try and keep a certain amount of time between him and Bottas. If they had said we'll investigate after the race it would be a different matter entirely.What Rosberg does there is worse and there's no question it's deliberate. You can clearly see he's not turning in at all, unlike Max. Did Rosberg get a retrospective 5s penalty for that after stewards said no investigation necesssary then? Or are you just trying to wind people up?For anyone new to F1, this is how you're penalized if you aren't the FIA's favorite:
By that standard Max should sit out the last 3 races
i think bringing back capital punishment is the only recourse from here.
Hamilton got a 10s stop and go penalty for missing the apex at Silverstone. This incident really isn’t dissimilar except Max didn’t avoid the collision at Silverstone but Hamilton did at Brazil (unless we are making the laughable conclusion that Hamilton purposely hit max at Silverstone?) and obviously the extent to which Max missed the apex is far more significant than Hamilton at Silverstone. In my view that should have no bearing on punishment - it’s exactly the same offence regardless of whether they collide or not or whether the other driver gave way or not. Perhaps extent could have an impact. How a 10s stop go matches in terms of post race punishment I don’t know, but the stewards messed up by not sorting it out in the race. And your suggestion that it is a simple case of handing over the place would also be an inconsistent and hence insufficient punishment.Pause at 0:47. He's already past the apex and he's still on the brakes and turning in. He's obviously braked too late in order to try and outbrake but failed, missing the corner and pushing off Lewis as a result. Stewards should have told Max to give Lewis the position but they fecked up and said no investigation necessary. That's the big thing here. The question isn't whether or not Max pushed Lewis off, because it's obvious that's what happened (though I think it's ridiculous to say he was trying to crash into Lewis, if that's what he wanted to do he wouldn't have turned in at all and just locked up his brakes and went "oops"
What Rosberg does there is worse and there's no question it's deliberate. You can clearly see he's not turning in at all, unlike Max. Did Rosberg get a retrospective 5s penalty for that after stewards said no investigation necesssary then? Or are you just trying to wind people up?
Video of the new Abu Dhabi revisions…if Mercedes take another new ICE here you’d have to assume they’ll have zero issues overtaking anyone on that super long straight with DRS. I don’t see how you could defend it - no wonder Red Bull are searching for reasons to get something banned! Next two races are massive I think.
The Abu Dhabi track is changed this year?
Edit: I didn’t know this was happening, interesting. Just read the full article. Seems like they’re eliminating a number of corners.
Yeah they’ve made some revisions to make it easier to overtake.
What Rosberg did is no worse. It is at a slower speed so actually much less dangerous than Max's manoeuvre.Pause at 0:47. He's already past the apex and he's still on the brakes and turning in. He's obviously braked too late in order to try and outbrake but failed, missing the corner and pushing off Lewis as a result. Stewards should have told Max to give Lewis the position but they fecked up and said no investigation necessary. That's the big thing here. The question isn't whether or not Max pushed Lewis off, because it's obvious that's what happened (though I think it's ridiculous to say he was trying to crash into Lewis, if that's what he wanted to do he wouldn't have turned in at all and just locked up his brakes and went "oops"
What Rosberg does there is worse and there's no question it's deliberate. You can clearly see he's not turning in at all, unlike Max. Did Rosberg get a retrospective 5s penalty for that after stewards said no investigation necesssary then? Or are you just trying to wind people up?
2pm Thursday Mercedes present their evidence to officials that max should have been punished for the brasilian GP incident. Red Bull will be present at meeting.
Hopefully an outcome we'll before qualifying starts then
That would be incredible to watch. Imagine how awkward it’s going to be
The incidents are similar in a way yes, though as @Fluctuation0161 says about the Rosberg one, you could argue speed or better yet level of risk or danger could also be a factor in the punishment. The Silverstone one was obviously very high speed and thus dangerous. But then I suppose there are other factors as well. Anyway, you could be right that just giving up the position would be a mild punishment. I could have lived with a 5s penalty for Max during the race as well. That would have been fair enough. I agree they should have dealt with it during the race. But if the stewards say no investigation necessary that should be that for the race. You can't expect Max or Red Bull to factor into their strategy a penalty for an incident that's already been dealt with by the stewards. I feel Max could easily have kept Bottas 5s+ behind him if he needed to. It would probably have put more strain on the car but that would have been worth it. For that reason a retrospective 5s penalty is not the same as a 5s penalty during the race. Not when the stewards have said no investigation necessary. It would be a massive shame for everyone who loves the sport if the championship gets decided this way.
Doubt you took this view about the .5mm mishap over the weekend?
What a brilliant season this is. Controversy, drama, hard core over the limit racing between 2 unlikable tw@t’s and a title fight till the end. Fantastic, how F1 should be.
Ha ha! Brilliant.That would be incredible to watch. Imagine how awkward it’s going to be
In the same way Hamilton received his penalty, and others in the past, if you break the rules you break the rules and you should receive the appropriate penalty. Being in a title fight doesn’t and shouldn’t impact that. For the spectator it would be a shame, sure, but stewards and race officials can’t make decisions based upon that.
There are of course a variety of factors to consider. You could be pedantic about a whole host of things. Silverstone was faster, more dangerous. Max was potentially deliberate (not even in question for Lewis), was far wider, and a collision which could still have been dangerous only avoided because of the sensibility of Lewis. Some go one way, some the other.
I also disagree you can’t consider it retrospectively. If a mistake is made it should be looked at. I agree if there is nothing new, it creates an awkward precedent. But the stewards didn’t have the onboard and telemetry to sync at the time. Now they do, it should at least be evaluated.
On the penalty itself, I’m struggling on why this should be a 5s time penalty whereas Lewis effectively got what amounts to a 20-30s penalty if not more. Not to mention his advance was then also prohibited by having to overtake as a result of the penalty. I don’t think the two are proportionate to the incidents. If you set that precedent with Hamilton then you should apply it to Max.
For me, a grid penalty at the next race is the most effective way of correcting this. Something like a 5 place penalty. It’s at the start of the race so it’s not like it’s punishing him directly by losing those places, it gives the chance for him to make them up - just like if he received a penalty during the race and was then having to overtake to get back to second.
Retrospective punishments are well established in F1.Pause at 0:47. He's already past the apex and he's still on the brakes and turning in. He's obviously braked too late in order to try and outbrake but failed, missing the corner and pushing off Lewis as a result. Stewards should have told Max to give Lewis the position but they fecked up and said no investigation necessary. That's the big thing here. The question isn't whether or not Max pushed Lewis off, because it's obvious that's what happened (though I think it's ridiculous to say he was trying to crash into Lewis, if that's what he wanted to do he wouldn't have turned in at all and just locked up his brakes and went "oops"
Rosberg actually makes the corner.
I agree if you break the rules you should get a penalty, that's what the stewards are for. I just don't think Max should be made to pay for the stewards messing up. Which is exactly what you'd achieve if a retrospective 5s penalty is handed out. It would be unfair punishment. I'm not saying retrospective action should be completely off the table, I'm saying if any retrospective punishment is necessary it should be dealt with the next race. If punishment is necessary a grid penalty the next race would be the fairest option So we agree on that bit.
How did Lewis get a 20-30+ second penalty in your mind? A 10 second stop and go is exactly that right? You pit but your team has to wait 10 seconds before working on the car. It would only amount to 30s if you get the penalty in your out lap right after pitting or something as you then don't really have anything to gain from the pit stop. But since you don't have to stop right away that never happens. Considering his move was more dangerous due to the extremely high speeds and Hamilton actually taking out Max (causing a collision) it makes sense that he would be given a bigger penalty. I'm not sure if you want to factor in the damage you've caused to the opposition with your error, in this case Lewis being held up for 11 laps. If you want to do that consistently, it would have meant the only proportionate penalty for Lewis at Silverstone would have been a DSQ. Not sure that's the way to go.
All fair points. I tend to agree.
My mistake, apologies - I thought he took an extra pit stop because of the penalty.
When you say Hamilton took Verstappen out, it seems like we are trending back to hyperbole / strawman arguments here. Just to be clear, in Silverstone, Hamilton missed the apex (by a couple feet), Verstappen was not willing to give more than a little bit of extra room, and so they collided and Max went off. In Brazil, Max missed the apex by many many feet and ran wide well off the track, Hamilton instead of continuing on his trajectory, sensibly ran wide with him to avoid the collision, hence they did not crash.
Therefore I really do think any objective person cannot suggest that the fact they collided or the fact there was damage should be considered a factor (in this circumstance). What you’re saying there, is because Hamilton was sensible and they did not crash, he should be double punished because by being sensible you’re now saying the penalty on Max should be reduced as a result. So what, Max benefits because Lewis was sensible? If you hand on heart can’t understand why that is simply not correct, then we can be done with this discussion.
I personally think what Max did was worse. Potentially deliberate, even if it wasn’t he simply knew he would never make the apex there, and even if he thought he could he missed it so significantly that it endangered himself and Lewis. I know we will never agree on that, but to my mind it is incredibly shady the difference in how the two incidents were dealt with by the stewards. And I’m yet to see one truly rational reason as to why. So really I’m not even most annoyed with Max although it was very dickish, I’m mostly just annoyed with the stewards who, if they acted appropriately, would very quickly eliminate that type of racing from Max. And actually that’d be to Max’s betterment in the long run.
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