German Football 21/22 | Gladbach sign Farke

[stefan92]

What are the mistakes Dortmund makes in your opinion? Because I think they're generally a brillantly run club both on the commercial as well as on the sporting side. They've got great scouting, appoint the right coaches, have visions for the club, etc. I honestly think you can't do that much better in their position than they do. They are one of the very few clubs who grew organically to (almost) elite level. Think it is hard to find a club in the whole of Europe who went through a similar development. Maybe Atletico.

They are terrible at scouting and signing defensive players. Your praise is justified for their attack, and as attacking players are usually sold for higher fees it is great business.

But wasting money on someone like Nico Schulz, still having to rely on a past it Hummels, signing an idiot like Pongracic near deadline day does all look bad to me.

Also their manager signings were questionable since Tuchel left. They were not really bad managers as such (mostly), but it was difficult to see in which way they wanted to evolve their style and it shows in their squad, that feels a bit unbalanced.

 

[Zehner]

They are terrible at scouting and signing defensive players. Your praise is justified for their attack, and as attacking players are usually sold for higher fees it is great business.

But wasting money on someone like Nico Schulz, still having to rely on a past it Hummels, signing an idiot like Pongracic near deadline day does all look bad to me.

Also their manager signings were questionable since Tuchel left. They were not really bad managers as such (mostly), but it was difficult to see in which way they wanted to evolve their style and it shows in their squad, that feels a bit unbalanced.

I agree with the defensive scouting, at least in the full back department. Meunier, Schulz and Pongracic were terrible signings. But Akanji and Zagadou were good ones for instance.

Moreover, I think Favre was a decent appointment and Rose a great one. Thing is, in their position you have to take gambles. Better appoint a manager that could be exceptional but also underwhelming than appointing one who's reliably good. Because they need exceptional to challenge. And Rose is exactly that. I mean, I'm sure they would've preferred Nagelsmann over him but, well, when Bayern comes calling they have little chance. And that's sort of what I mean: Signings of established players like Schulz or Meunier were attempts to replicate Bayern's signings of immediate improvements on their respective level but it's just incredibly hard to do so if you have to make due with the scraps Bayern leaves over. They don't have the same options and have to make riskier decisions but altogether, there's no club who developed comparably well over the last 10-15 years.

I also think we as fans look too much into the sporting side of the business. Dortmund develops very well commercially, too. I couldn't even tell you how Freiburg etc. are doing on that front. And in the end, that's where Bayern initially won the war that provides them with the financial advantages they always had in the last 30 years or so.

 

[do.ob]

They are terrible at scouting and signing defensive players. Your praise is justified for their attack, and as attacking players are usually sold for higher fees it is great business.

But wasting money on someone like Nico Schulz, still having to rely on a past it Hummels, signing an idiot like Pongracic near deadline day does all look bad to me.

Also their manager signings were questionable since Tuchel left. They were not really bad managers as such (mostly), but it was difficult to see in which way they wanted to evolve their style and it shows in their squad, that feels a bit unbalanced.

Dortmund's defensive personnel actually isn't that bad on paper:

Spoiler

RB:
Meunier was an absolute liability last year, but he has been decent this year.
Morey is a replacement that could challenge him if he wasn't injured.

CB:
Akanji has been a consistent performer for two years now.
Hummels has been very much a stabilizing factor for two years, he's shown weakness this year, but I think we have to see how much of that is Euros hangover and fitness problems and how much is a geniune decline in ability. 32 isn't an ancient age for a CB.
Zagadou was on his way to become a top CB until he started to pick up one injury after another for two years straight.
Pongracic was an emergency loan on deadline day, free of charge.

LB:
Guerreiro - not much to say here I guess.
Schulz - obviously a terrible flop.

If everyone was fit there wouldn't be much to complain about aside from Schulz and to just write off injured players and just buy a third or fourth capable player for their position is something that will cost Dortmund on other ends.

I also think criticism on coaching appointments is lazy:
Under Tuchel Dortmund shifted to a (more) possession heavy approach. Then they wanted to sign Favre, a high profile (in Germany) coach, who (inspired by Cruyff) wants to combine patient possession with quick counter attacks, but his club wasn't nice enough to let him out of his contract. So they signed Bosz, another Cruyff inspired coach, who strives to dominate possession. When he failed they wanted to sign Nagelsmann, but they couldn't persuade Hoffenheim to let him out of their contract. So they signed an interim and went back for Favre in the summer. Then the club realized that the passivity and (extreme) patience of Favres football didn't really fit the club, so they started to tap up Rose. Favre had to be let go early, so they - again - hired an interim (who this time actually laid some ground work for Rose) and then they got Rose.
Klopp -> Tuchel was a shift to a more complete tactical approach and going from Favre -> Rose is a clear adjustment to more pressing centric and direct football. I think it's relatively easy to follow the train of thought and perhaps more importantly I'd like to know what the coaches other than Tuchel, (Favre), Bosz, (Nagelsmann), Favre and Rose were that should have been hired instead, because they made more sense.

Dortmund have a clear problem when they are trying to add some experience to their squad to build a spine in order to stabilize the young players, because they are more or less capped at €35m in fees and €10m p.a. in wages and the club struggles to keep a hold of its top players. 25+ year old top players are out of that scope, so they have to compromise and take certain risks. Which more often than not hasn't gone well for the club.

 

[stefan92]

I also think we as fans look too much into the sporting side of the business. Dortmund develops very well commercially, too. I couldn't even tell you how Freiburg etc. are doing on that front.

Increased income over the last years, constantly having operational profit while building (and just opening) a new stadium. Rock solid business compared to Dortmund building up debts again.

 

[do.ob]

Increased income over the last years, constantly having operational profit while building (and just opening) a new stadium. Rock solid business compared to Dortmund building up debts again.

Give it a rest with Freiburg, they are obviously very well run. But they operate in a different world than clubs at the top.
Not the least, because they always aim deliberately low. Dortmund would be more profitable, too, if they were aiming for top 7. But what would be the point of that?

 

[Swarm]

Increased income over the last years, constantly having operational profit while building (and just opening) a new stadium. Rock solid business compared to Dortmund building up debts again.

Are you actually bemoaning building debts in the current climate with huge losses due a lack of matchday revenue from a stadium seating more than 80000?

 

[strongwalker]

According to the always well-informed Bild, BVB and attacker Karim Adeyemi reached an agreement over a 5 year contract. Adeyemi comes from the FC Bayern youth academy and currently plays for RB Salzburg. He also made his Germany team debut recently.

 

[hasanejaz88]

According to the always well-informed Bild, BVB and attacker Karim Adeyemi reached an agreement over a 5 year contract. Adeyemi comes from the FC Bayern youth academy and currently plays for RB Salzburg. He also made his Germany team debut recently.

He's going to be a disappointment given his hype. Don't understand why so many clubs were after him this summer.

 

[stefan92]

Are you actually bemoaning building debts in the current climate with huge losses due a lack of matchday revenue from a stadium seating more than 80000?

I understand it in these circumstances. I just wanted to point out that this is not a given for any club. @do.ob 's point regarding their ambitions is also fair.

 

[Acrobat7]

He's going to be a disappointment given his hype. Don't understand why so many clubs were after him this summer.

He will also be instantly compared to Haaland (I assume he is off in the summer) which won‘t be of any help.

 

[do.ob]

Apologies if this is old news, but I have just learned that according to Kicker there was a "him or me" situation, Rangnick vs Mintzlaff, the architect of the franchise vs the guy who used to represent Andrea Berg. And Mateschitz picked Mintzlaff? And then Mintzlaff went on and had his little experiment with Krösche, after which he apparently thought "who needs a DoF anyway??" and now they are stuck in midtable with Tedesco?
I always thought they got rid of Rangnick, because between him and Nagelsmann there was one inflated ego too many.

He will also be instantly compared to Haaland (I assume he is off in the summer) which won‘t be of any help.

Anyone who the club signs is going to have that hanging over his head. If anything it might be a bit less, because Adeyemi isn't necessarily your typical no9, so the narrative would probably be something like: "he's not a like for like replacement, we're privoting to another approach and distribute Haaland's replacement on several different shoulders.
But in any case I don't quite get it either, especially not for €30m+. Adeyemi seems incredibly raw still and a bit one-dimensional. Plus Dortmund already have a fairly similar type in Malen and Moukoko even. But on the other hand there is no one (bar Haaland) who is comfortable leading the line or even a natural dribbler, who can crack defenses out wide.
On paper you could see the promise in having a Dahoud, Brandt, Reus (Guerreiro) midfield and then Malen/Adeyemi murdering defenders with their pace, but in reality teams will start to park the bus and then you need perfectly executed passing combinations to find some space for the two strikers, before the defense can close it, and clinical finishing, because it won't happen very often.

 

[stefan92]

Apologies if this is old news, but I have just learned that according to Kicker there was a "him or me" situation, Rangnick vs Mintzlaff, the architect of the franchise vs the guy who used to represent Andrea Berg. And Mateschitz picked Mintzlaff? And then Mintzlaff went on and had his little experiment with Krösche, after which he apparently thought "who needs a DoF anyway??" and now they are stuck in midtable with Tedesco?
I always thought they got rid of Rangnick, because between him and Nagelsmann there was one inflated ego too many.

Was it really that Mateschitz decided? I always thought Rangnick reached a point where he just said "F*** that s***"?

 

[do.ob]

Was it really that Mateschitz decided? I always thought Rangnick reached a point where he just said "F*** that s***"?

I listened to the Kicker/DAZN podcast and there Kicker's Leipzig correspondent more or less said that when it was Rangnick vs Mintzlaff behind the scenes, Mateschitz put his trust in Mintzlaff and he's not being rewarded very well for it so far.

 

[stefan92]

I listened to the Kicker/DAZN podcast and there Kicker's Leipzig correspondent more or less said that when it was Rangnick vs Mintzlaff behind the scenes, Mateschitz put his trust in Mintzlaff and he's not being rewarded very well for it so far.

Love it how they destruct themselves.

 

[do.ob]

Love it how they destruct themselves.

I think the sweetest irony of all is that things started to go south, when they put the marketing guy in charge of their football "club" and in the process seemingly lost their football competence.

 

[do.ob]

Nürnberger scoring for Nürnberg never gets old.

 

[Blackwidow]

Dorsch looking more and more like what he promised as youngster.

 

[strongwalker]

On unrelated news, Greuther Fürth are on 0-1-13 and counting. Who is next to join the mighty that have fallen, Hertha or Stuttgart?

 

[do.ob]

It's partly because Fürth's generosity, but the nominal relegation candidates are picking up quite a few points this year. Cologne and Bochum already got themselves 19 points, Augsburg is bound to get there too, since they still get to play Fürth and even the struggling Stuttgart and Hertha have 14/15 points. Meanwhile the Leipzig, Gladbach, Frankfurt trio only has 18 points themselves.

This could make for a very interesting snapshot over Christmas:
Gladbach for example are coming out of a 1:4 and 0:6 and their next three games are Leipzig (A), Frankfurt (H) and Hoffenheim (A), they better reset their momentum quickly..
Frankfurt themselves are facing Leverkusen (H), Gladbach (A), and Mainz (H)
Stuttgart don't have it easy as well with Wolfsburg (A), Bayern (H) and Cologne (A)

It's not that unlikely one of them will feel the heat and sack their coach.

Then you have Bielefeld, who could pull a lot of teams back into the mud with them if they beat Hertha tomorrow and maybe Bochum the game after. Or they don't and things are beginning to look a bit hopeless for them.
On the flipside Hertha still have to play in Mainz and host Dortmund afterwards.

 

[stefan92]

Mainz leading the game in Munich now. Look Barca, how hard can it be to be at least a threat to them, when even Mainz can score there?

 

[do.ob]

Gladbach are down 2 goals already and still eating one counter attack after another.

Bochum themselves don't know how they are in the lead. Bellingham and Haaland can't score even though they are completely blank in the box and then Kobel just loses his head and takes out Antwi-Adjei, probably the player with the worst end product in Bundesliga.

 

[giorno]

I've watched 20 minutes of this game and dortmund had 3 chances cleared off the line and a disallowed goal

What the feck is this game

 

[stefan92]

I've watched 20 minutes of this game and dortmund had 3 chances cleared off the line and a disallowed goal

What the feck is this game

Bochum are simply on a brilliant run. Should they win today they would have 6W 2L in their last 8 games.

 

[giorno]

Why is Halaand trying to be an assistman now. I mean, the actual assist was great, but twice now he had the chance to shoot and instead went for the ambitious pass/flick...

 

[CraftySoAndSo]

Was Tedesco in the Leipzig dugout today? If he was very good start for him but another 4 goals conceded for gladbach, got to wonder if that's it for Hutter. I know they're in a difficult position i.e players potentially leaving but being this bad surely there's something deeper going on???

 

[do.ob]

Was Tedesco in the Leipzig dugout today? If he was very good start for him but another 4 goals conceded for gladbach, got to wonder if that's it for Hutter. I know they're in a difficult position i.e players potentially leaving but being this bad surely there's something deeper going on???

Eberl is a very loyal person and he firmly positioned himself behind Hütter after their 0:6, he will at the very least wait until Christmas, before he considers a change.

 

[ForEverEleven]

Gladbach won´t sack a coach they paid 7.5 million for. At least not right now. Their current run is horrendous, however. 14 goals conceded in the last 3 games.

 

[do.ob]

It's such a weird situation in the table. Gladbach are still just three points behind 7th place (though that's Leipzig), however if Stuttgart can defend their lead they are also just two points ahead of the relegation playoff. The most important question is always how the team thinks about Hütter. If they still believe in him, then the management can tell themselves that the mentality of the squad was rotten before he took over, that they are too good individually to get in any kind of real relegation danger and so they might as well give him until the end of the season, instead of trying their luck with some subpar interim option.
But if something has been broken between Hütter and the squad, if they don't get a win against Frankfurt and Hoffenheim, then the glass is half empty, then it's looking like they are in free fall and 16th place is coming up fast.

 

[ForEverEleven]

Florian Kohfeldt continues to unimpress. Ridiculous appointment from the start.

 

[CraftySoAndSo]

Eberl is a very loyal person and he firmly positioned himself behind Hütter after their 0:6, he will at the very least wait until Christmas, before he considers a change.

Fair play for being loyal i guess, and i suppose he may deserve it after his stint at Frankfurt. But this feels like Ole's last few months at united where potentially the more you leave it the more damage is done that could take a while to reverse. As someone above said, they could very well be heading very quickly to the relegation places and if they wait until then it could already be too late.

 

[stefan92]

Fair play for being loyal i guess, and i suppose he may deserve it after his stint at Frankfurt. But this feels like Ole's last few months at united where potentially the more you leave it the more damage is done that could take a while to reverse. As someone above said, they could very well be heading very quickly to the relegation places and if they wait until then it could already be too late.

The differece is that Gladbach was in a similar form under Rose in his last half season. Something is broken in that squad and it does not seem to be the manager.

 

[CraftySoAndSo]

The differece is that Gladbach was in a similar form under Rose in his last half season. Something is broken in that squad and it does not seem to be the manager.

Yeah i did say in my first post last night there must be something deeper going on within the club. If Hutter were to get sacked though it would be interesting to see where he ends up next and how badly his reputation would get hit by this. He did well at Frankfurt although you could maybe say he just followed the good job Kovac did before him and didn't change too much so that might of made him look better than he is??? If that's the case that could explain partly what's going on at Gladbach.

 

[do.ob]

Yesterday Eberl was the guest at ASS:

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Today he's doing a video call into another popular football talk. Being authentic, facing the press in these long interviews (or podcasts) and trying to get in front of the narrative(s) is something I guess most fans (would) value in their management, but I feel like sometimes he just overdoes it. E.g. three years ago he hammered home a point about having a "bromance" with D. Hecking, only to sack him a few weeks later (after initially extending his contract), because he saw the chance for Rose to start something with them.
Then last year, while the Rose speculation was still on a "media nuisance" level, he gave the rumors some substance during one of his ASS appearances. Not to mention "I'm 98% sure he's going to stay" in yet another ASS appearance.

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— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[stefan92]

Yeah i did say in my first post last night there must be something deeper going on within the club. If Hutter were to get sacked though it would be interesting to see where he ends up next and how badly his reputation would get hit by this. He did well at Frankfurt although you could maybe say he just followed the good job Kovac did before him and didn't change too much so that might of made him look better than he is??? If that's the case that could explain partly what's going on at Gladbach.

He did a quite good job in Frankfurt, you can't give much credit for his work there to Kovac, simply because most of Kovac' important players were sold (Rebic, Jovic, Haller, Boateng). Hütter had to rebuild the side and this worked very good.

So I don't think Hütters reputation will get a hard hit, of course each failure is bad, but one failed job in these circumstances would probably be forgiven by most clubs and not stop them hiring him.

 

[stefan92]

Crazy results today. Fürth got their first ever home win in the Bundesliga (1-0 against Union Berlin), and Frankfurt just thrashing Leverkusen (currently 5-2, after they were already 0-2 down). So the midfield of the table becomes even more condensed, basically everyone is fighting against relegation and for Europa League qualification at the same time, teams placed 7th and 16th are just 5 points apart.

 

[do.ob]

I'm at a crossroads here: on one hand I feel like conceding 5 goals in a row constitutes a Braziliation. On the other hand the score is "only" 5:2.

 

[stefan92]

I'm at a crossroads here: on one hand I feel like conceding 5 goals in a row constitutes a Braziliation. On the other hand the score is "only" 5:2.

I would simply call it a typical Leverkusen bottle job? Nothing Brazilian about that for me.

 

[do.ob]

@Big Ben Foster
We need your expert opinion.

 

[ForEverEleven]

Great job from Marco Fritz today, Frankfurts best player. Let´s see if he gets the same media treatment and publicity like Zwayer. I highly doubt it.

 

[stefan92]

Great job from Marco Fritz today, Frankfurts best player. Let´s see if he gets the same media treatment and publicity like Zwayer. I highly doubt it.

It's fair to criticise the referee today, but I doubt it will be discussed as much, as the game wasn't close in the end. After a 3-2 you can discuss whether the ref decided the game but when you stop playing after your 2-0 lead and get thrashed this way you can't scapegoat the ref.