Goodwillie has never been punished (barring a relative pittance of a fine) and even then has appealed it on numerous occasions, showing not only is he not rehabilitated but he firmly believes that he doesn’t need to be.I think people need to try and calmly consider whether they believe in rehabilitation or not - and if so, at what point is someone who’s been rehabilitated / punished ‘not allowed’ to work…?
Like, if someone’s a skilled doctor, but gets done for drunk driving or domestic violence, punished / rehabilitated, should they then be allowed to use their skill and work as a doctor?
What if instead of a doctor they were a plumber? Is that ‘lowly’ enough that we’d be ok with them going back to work?
Isn’t preventing Sports people from a career once they’ve been punished / rehabilitated a weird sort of mild vigilantism? Like, ‘no we’ll decide your punishment’?
It’s a very complex issue I think and the more I think about it the more big the questions are I think.
I guess it's some boomers in the board room, who want to stick it to "cancel culture". Reading some comments about Greenwoods case, it's not hard to imagine there are people out there, who see no problem with this and maybe lack touch with the wider world to anticipate the consequences. Since he was already at the club before there might also have been an element of "well I know him and he's a good lad."I just don't understand why clubs make these signings. It's not like these players are world beaters, so why risk the furore?
Bumping this so someone answers. Is there a list of professions ex-convicts are allowed to pursue?I think people need to try and calmly consider whether they believe in rehabilitation or not - and if so, at what point is someone who’s been rehabilitated / punished ‘not allowed’ to work…?
Like, if someone’s a skilled doctor, but gets done for drunk driving or domestic violence, punished / rehabilitated, should they then be allowed to use their skill and work as a doctor?
What if instead of a doctor they were a plumber? Is that ‘lowly’ enough that we’d be ok with them going back to work?
Should people have to retrain at a level the general public decides is ok and acceptable? Should they just sign on and not be forced work at all!?
Isn’t preventing Sports people from a career once they’ve been punished / rehabilitated a weird sort of mild vigilantism? Like, ‘no we’ll decide your punishment’?
It’s a very complex issue I think and the more I think about it the more big the questions are I think.
I absolutely believe in rehabilitation but do we really want footballers who are idolized, cheered for and let's face it are in a privileged position because they make very good money for kicking a ball return to what they love to do just like that? Has he done any kind of therapy? Is he truly sorry for what he did? I doubt it. He didn't went to jail, he paid the victim and that's it.I think people need to try and calmly consider whether they believe in rehabilitation or not - and if so, at what point is someone who’s been rehabilitated / punished ‘not allowed’ to work…?
Like, if someone’s a skilled doctor, but gets done for drunk driving or domestic violence, punished / rehabilitated, should they then be allowed to use their skill and work as a doctor?
What if instead of a doctor they were a plumber? Is that ‘lowly’ enough that we’d be ok with them going back to work?
Should people have to retrain at a level the general public decides is ok and acceptable? Should they just sign on and not be forced work at all!?
Isn’t preventing Sports people from a career once they’ve been punished / rehabilitated a weird sort of mild vigilantism? Like, ‘no we’ll decide your punishment’?
It’s a very complex issue I think and the more I think about it the more big the questions are I think.
in this scenario the crime that was committed they have shown zero remorse for and it’s not a crime which someone commits by accident. You don’t accidentally rape someone. I don’t understand why someone as evil as that should be allowed the privilege of being a footballer or we as a society would want them in a position of power/as a role model in an environment of young men and women.Bumping this so someone answers. Is there a list of professions ex-convicts are allowed to pursue?
The civil court judgement was in 2017 when he signed for Clyde and Clyde faced alot of criticism in Scotland, but he played well for them and it slowly faded sadly.Really interesting case this one.
Normally it's a criminal conviction that has someone banged to rights, as that is beyond reasonable doubt.
A civil case on "probabilities" sounds much less certain, but they've decided to decree guilt and a cash punishment based on that.
I dare say normally players-rich types make an off the record payment to make it all go away.
But the really odd thing is that this is a decade ago. He's been playing for years since!
Did no-one at Clyde over the last 3 or 4 years raise a whisper about this for example?!
So, while I’m genuinely not disagreeing with you (I’m unsure what my stance is on this), what ARE they allowed to do as work?in this scenario the crime that was committed they have shown zero remorse for and it’s not a crime which someone commits by accident. You don’t accidentally rape someone. I don’t understand why someone as evil as that should be allowed the privilege of being a footballer or we as a society would want them in a position of power/as a role model in an environment of young men and women.
It's a weird conundrum because if a person has served sentence he/she was given, then I have no issues with them pursuing a career in the field they're the most skilled in. They should be allowed to make a living in society in peace. But I also can't help but look negatively upon any club that willingly allows a person like that into their community/organisation.I think people need to try and calmly consider whether they believe in rehabilitation or not - and if so, at what point is someone who’s been rehabilitated / punished ‘not allowed’ to work…?
Like, if someone’s a skilled doctor, but gets done for drunk driving or domestic violence, punished / rehabilitated, should they then be allowed to use their skill and work as a doctor?
What if instead of a doctor they were a plumber? Is that ‘lowly’ enough that we’d be ok with them going back to work?
Should people have to retrain at a level the general public decides is ok and acceptable? Should they just sign on and not be forced work at all!?
Isn’t preventing Sports people from a career once they’ve been punished / rehabilitated a weird sort of mild vigilantism? Like, ‘no we’ll decide your punishment’?
It’s a very complex issue I think and the more I think about it the more big the questions are I think.
Well it's often said that if you have prison on your record that it prevents you doing certain jobs. Football always seems to be one that evades the list as seen from the drink drivers, Marlon King, Duncan Ferguson type lot coming straight back in.Bumping this so someone answers. Is there a list of professions ex-convicts are allowed to pursue?
On one hand yes, but obviously any personal link to the crime or victim would quickly make you feel different.It's a weird conundrum because if a person has served sentence he/she was given, then I have no issues with them pursuing a career in the field they're the most skilled in. They should be allowed to make a living in society in peace. But I also can't help but look negatively upon any club that willingly allows a person like that into their community/organisation.
I suppose it depends on the capacity of their role. Teachers that go to jail for inappropriate relationships with students won’t be allowed to teach anymore so with other criminals there can be restrictions on what professions they can also do. As you said before it does require individual nuance for each case. In particular for Goodwillie as we have said before, he doesn’t care or has shown any care for his victim or how he is seen in regard to the rape he committed and with people like that, it is hard to say that they deserve any type of job.So, while I’m genuinely not disagreeing with you (I’m unsure what my stance is on this), what ARE they allowed to do as work?
What if they’re not allowed to be a footballer anymore, but are allowed to be an engineer, but they excelled at it and became famous… do we then say, ‘ok that’s enough of that’, and make them start again in yet another profession?
Yeah, it’s like Alonso actually killed a woman while speeding in his car after drinking and is now enjoying his career at a top PL club…It's a weird conundrum because if a person has served sentence he/she was given, then I have no issues with them pursuing a career in the field they're the most skilled in. They should be allowed to make a living in society in peace. But I also can't help but look negatively upon any club that willingly allows a person like that into their community/organisation.
You did not answer my question.in this scenario the crime that was committed they have shown zero remorse for and it’s not a crime which someone commits by accident. You don’t accidentally rape someone. I don’t understand why someone as evil as that should be allowed the privilege of being a footballer or we as a society would want them in a position of power/as a role model in an environment of young men and women.
Yeah obviously there are careers where the crime directly interferes with the ability of the individual to do the job.I suppose it depends on the capacity of their role. Teachers that go to jail for inappropriate relationships with students won’t be allowed to teach anymore so with other criminals there can be restrictions on what professions they can also do. As you said before it does require individual nuance for each case. In particular for Goodwillie as we have said before, he doesn’t care or has shown any care for his victim or how he is seen in regard to the rape he committed and with people like that, it is hard to say that they deserve any type of job.
There is consistency. Nobody wants these predators at their club. it’s that simpleYeah, it’s like Alonso actually killed a woman while speeding in his car after drinking and is now enjoying his career at a top PL club…
Meanwhile, it’s becoming mob law that the young Utd player yet to be found guilty of anything must never play again AS WELL AS whatever punishment and rehabilitation he might be given.
I feel consistency and calmness is key with this type of stuff.
Yes it is. The age of social media is just shining a light on those in power that use to be able to get away with things like this.What a start to 2022. Football makes me sick sometimes. It is simply not the sport I used to love as a kid anymore.
Ronaldo seems pretty welcome at Utd.There is consistency. Nobody wants these predators at their club. it’s that simple
As I said above, it depends on the capacity of their role. I don’t think a role where Goodwillie is cheered on and looked up to by children / working with females is appropriate when they’ve had complete disregard for one with no remorse. If there is a role where they can have a profession without that then they can go ahead. Clearly multiple women have shown they feel uncomfortable working with him, as do some men.You did not answer my question.
A footballer is someone who gets paid to play football. And a footballer is not automatically a role model.
Regardless of remorse, if a person is convicted of a crime in criminal court, the penalty is that they do their time in prison (and pay a fine possibly). If a person is found liable in civil court, then they pay a fine. Once that is done, they are free, apart from having the tag of ex-convict.
So again, what jobs are ex-convicts allowed to pursue? Because it would be much more honest if people admitted they don't see any use for ex-cons making a honest living.
I'll add the caveat that people accused of certain crimes (like child molestation) are rightly barred from becoming teachers... And so on.
This is pretty much my thoughts on the matter. I wouldn't even mind if the club hired the guy in another role (groundsman, club shop etc), cos its just another job and he shouldn't be prevented from working. But being a player is different, it's not a normal job, it's a privilege and players are public personalities.I absolutely believe in rehabilitation but do we really want footballers who are idolized, cheered for and let's face it are in a privileged position because they make very good money for kicking a ball return to what they love to do just like that?
Yeah it's massively muddied water and it's difficult to know what the right move is. On principle I think people should be allowed to making a living in society in peace, but with obvious caveats.This guy seems to have served no prison time and by all accounts has shown zero remorse, and it's easy to a problem with a guy like continuing to prosper in a privileged industry like football.On one hand yes, but obviously any personal link to the crime or victim would quickly make you feel different.
And I remember Lee Hughes, booze guy in a tragic crash strolling back into football and celebrating goals in front of opposition fans.
That doesn't quite feel right somehow.
And the paedos.When you were a kid, it just seemed nicer because nobody spoke up and the rapists got away with it.
a) Football is not like regular jobs, clubs are more or less supposed to be community, they have fans and sponsors, who (pretend to) share certain values.You did not answer my question.
A footballer is someone who gets paid to play football. And a footballer is not automatically a role model.
Regardless of remorse, if a person is convicted of a crime in criminal court, the penalty is that they do their time in prison (and pay a fine possibly). If a person is found liable in civil court, then they pay a fine. Once that is done, they are free, apart from having the tag of ex-convict.
So again, what jobs are ex-convicts allowed to pursue? Because it would be much more honest if people admitted they don't see any use for ex-cons making a honest living.
I'll add the caveat that people accused of certain crimes (like child molestation) are rightly barred from becoming teachers... And so on.
In silence, none. With an associated level of outrage dependent upon the crime committed - all of them. Could you perhaps provide a list of crimes nobody's allowed to speak out about?Bumping this so someone answers. Is there a list of professions ex-convicts are allowed to pursue?
Well your question is disingenuous. Goodwillie is allowed to pursue a career as a footballer and is doing just that. The issue in the case of a footballer is that for want of a better description you are an entertainer and rely on the support of fans. Fans quite rightly can say they do not want to support someone capable of rape and sponsors can understandably choose not to associate their brand with rapists but that is not the same as saying he cannot work.You did not answer my question.
A footballer is someone who gets paid to play football. And a footballer is not automatically a role model.
Regardless of remorse, if a person is convicted of a crime in criminal court, the penalty is that they do their time in prison (and pay a fine possibly). If a person is found liable in civil court, then they pay a fine. Once that is done, they are free, apart from having the tag of ex-convict.
So again, what jobs are ex-convicts allowed to pursue? Because it would be much more honest if people admitted they don't see any use for ex-cons making a honest living.
I'll add the caveat that people accused of certain crimes (like child molestation) are rightly barred from becoming teachers... And so on.
This is a though one for sure. I am for rehabilitation and second chances in life, but in some cases I am not. Depends on what type of crime tbh.Ronaldo seems pretty welcome at Utd.
Goodwillies is wanted by the owners of Raith.
Robinho played on in his career, same with Ched Evans.
It requires the desire to talk about it calmly and logically, as far as is possible.
Football is viewed as an extremely privileged industry. The idea of a person who has been ruled to have committed a horrific crime continuing to enjoy this privilege obviously won't sit well with people. As mentioned by someone else, there are other aspects to being a footballer than just playing football. They're ambassadors, take part in charity events, community events etc. Its not the same as securing a job in an office.Yeah, it’s like Alonso actually killed a woman while speeding in his car after drinking and is now enjoying his career at a top PL club…
Meanwhile, it’s becoming mob law that the young Utd player yet to be found guilty of anything must never play again AS WELL AS whatever punishment and rehabilitation he might be given.
I feel consistency and calmness is key with this type of stuff.
The latter. Announced at 10.30pm, just after the newspapers go to print, and hoping to hide in the immediate aftermath of the Aaron Ramsay unveiling an hour earlier.Would be remarkable if they say feck it, in for a penny, in for a pound and start him.
Amazing decision-making so far. Did they have a fanfare about him being a marquee signing or sign him quietly hoping no-one will notice?
It’s quite simple really. It’s not a complex issue at all. We don’t want rapists and women abusers at our football clubs. I don’t think there’s much more to explain really.I think people need to try and calmly consider whether they believe in rehabilitation or not - and if so, at what point is someone who’s been rehabilitated / punished ‘not allowed’ to work…?
Like, if someone’s a skilled doctor, but gets done for drunk driving or domestic violence, punished / rehabilitated, should they then be allowed to use their skill and work as a doctor?
What if instead of a doctor they were a plumber? Is that ‘lowly’ enough that we’d be ok with them going back to work?
Should people have to retrain at a level the general public decides is ok and acceptable? Should they just sign on and not be forced work at all!?
Isn’t preventing Sports people from a career once they’ve been punished / rehabilitated a weird sort of mild vigilantism? Like, ‘no we’ll decide your punishment’?
It’s a very complex issue I think and the more I think about it the more big the questions are I think.
People are judged by their actions, nothing wrong with that. Rehabilitation doesn't mean you get to live on as if nothing ever happened.So, while I’m genuinely not disagreeing with you (I’m unsure what my stance is on this), what ARE they allowed to do as work?
What if they’re not allowed to be a footballer anymore, but are allowed to be an engineer, but they excelled at it and became famous… do we then say, ‘ok that’s enough of that’, and make them start again in yet another profession?
Wow, what a mess. Surely the board couldn't possibly make things wor.......oh, oh no, they've made it worse.Tweet
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