Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

Messi or Ronaldo

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Zehner

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How can he lack the overall influence when all of the goals he's scored has contributed to, for example, Real Madrid winning the CL 3 x in a row, La Liga's, Premier Leagues, Serie A's as well as leading his country to a Euro's. He has an unrivalled winning mentality and dedication to the fitness in the game, he's pretty much an inspiring figure for multiple athletes worldwide football and otherwise, hell even Kylian Mbappe idolises him, oh as well as people outside of the sport.

I'm not going to disagree with you I think Messi is the naturally more gifted player, we are so very lucky to see them both in their primes in our lifetime. Anytime Messi had the ball it was just complete and utter magic, Ronaldo is a fantastic player, arguably the second best to ever play the game based on pure achievement alone, but Messi is definitely number 1. The only thing I'm going to say is, Messi did virtually all of this at Barcelona, a league that, at the time, was barely competitive and he did it surrounded by arguably one of the best teams to ever play football with one of the best midfields to ever play football. I don't mean this to take anything away from Messi of course but the guy has never tested himself outside of his comfort zone. Ronaldo has done all he has done in 4 different leagues, 5 stints at 4 different clubs, with various degrees of challenges and he's dominated in every single one.

Now at the twilights of their career as you say, Ronaldo is smashing it in an absolutely appalling team, for the most part, in the Premier League and the CL and is pretty much the reason we are still as "competitive" as we are, without him we wouldn't have got out of the CL group. Messi looks completely out of it at PSG amongst all those megastars, PSG wouldn't miss him if he wasn't there.

Again, won't argue, Messi should really be #1 based on pure natural gifted footballing ability, but lets not take anything away from Ronaldo and all that he has - and still continues - to achieve.
In the end goals are only the last contact before the ball passes the line. They don't say that much about who contributed the most to it or in a greater sense which team won the game. We all know the phrase "XYZ scored the goal, but 50% of it belong to ABC". The most difficult thing in football isn't converting chances, it is creating them. That is why the historically great players were always those with exceptional dribbling and passing skills. We never valued Henry higher than Zidane, Eto'o higher than Ronaldinho, Müller higher than Beckenbauer and so forth. Thing is, the whole Ronaldo vs. Messi debate at some point got reduced to goal comparisons - Messi scored twice, Ronaldo scored a hattrick a day later, etc. But football was never viewed like this before this rivalry and that's for a reason. There's so much more to a great attacking player and Messi dwarfs Ronaldo in many of these aspects. Saying they are equal in terms of influence is like saying van Nistelroy is equal to George Best because he has greater scoring stats. In fact, it is even worse because Messi actually rivals Ronaldo's scoring stats and in fact outperforms him in terms of goals per minute.

For me, 2022 is the first time you watch Messi play football and think that he is not the best player on the pitch. Before that - regardless if he played with Xavi, Iniesta, Eto'o, Henry, Ibrahimovic, Neymar, Luis Suarez or arguably even Ronaldinho - Messi was always absolutely clearly the best player of his team. You could watch Barcelona for the first time and see it immediately. With Cristiano, that's completely different. Watch a Madrid game in their prime for the first time without any previous knowledge of the players and you'd probably be most impressed with Modric or maybe Marcelo or Kroos because they were the most dominant players, having five times the contacts of Ronaldo, playing more dangerous passes, beating more players, recycling the ball better and so forth. Ronaldo's class only becomes obvious when you follow him over the season and see that he keeps his scoring up very consistently.

This just isn't enough fo rme to be compared with the absolute gold standard which to me is Maradona, Pele, Messi and the young R9. Cristiano was very, very close to entering that echelon between 2008 and 2012 but for me every chance of him becoming the greatest ever was buried when he decided to focus on optimizing his stat sheets and not his play. I don't know if he did that to keep up with Messi on paper or if he just became obsessed with productivity but he could've been much more IMO. He probably had another 4 years at top fitness left when he went down that route.
 
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Zehner

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And that is why, with all due respect to all your other opinions, your take on Messi vs Ronaldo is incredibly biased and borderline insane. I believe you're the guy who said Ronaldo's top ten goal compilation isn't even that impressive and Neymar is better. Think you just surpassed all of that now again!

It's okay. You can cling onto your uber eats league star. The rest of us are seeing the reality.
No, I never said that. Neymar is probably more talented but hasn't peaked as highly as Ronaldo and obviously never came close to his consistency. And Ronaldo's best goals are far better than Neymar's best goals overall.

Even as someone who has Ronaldo #1 I think this is the most balanced take. My reason for Ronaldo being number one is because I value results, big game step up and transforming a side greater values when judging a true #1 player. That's not to say Messi has none of that, but just not at Ronaldo's level imo.

What's funny is how some Messi fans like @Zehner like to remind folks they "just don't understand" Messi. They do this while reducing Ronaldo to nothing but a goal machine. In reality, it's fairly easy to see what makes Messi a GOAT contender. Even a first time football watcher would attest to it. However, It takes a bit of nuance and understanding to really know why Ronaldo is regarded as highly as he is.
I'm not reducing Ronaldo to nothing but a goal machine. But you aren't comparing him with somebody like Lewandowski or Suarez who are/were excellent at linking up with his team mates as well yet still pale compared to Cristiano. You are comparing him to the very best players the game has ever seen and in comparison to them, he is limited.
 

shamans

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No, I never said that. Neymar is probably more talented but hasn't peaked as highly as Ronaldo and obviously never came close to his consistency. And Ronaldo's best goals are far better than Neymar's best goals overall.


I'm not reducing Ronaldo to nothing but a goal machine. But you aren't comparing him with somebody like Lewandowski or Suarez who are/were excellent at linking up with his team mates as well yet still pale compared to Cristiano. You are comparing him to the very best players the game has ever seen and in comparison to them, he is limited.
You're doing it again. The fact you only see Ronaldo as another lewandowski or Suarez just exposes how little you know of Ronaldo and his career as a footballer.

It's the sort of logic where you should only compare Messi to hazard as he's just a better version. Makes no sense and if anyone said that it would be evident they don't understand Messi just as how you have no clue about Ronaldo beyond him being just some finisher.
 

genardk

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Ronaldo from 2006-2014 (the year he decided to become a machine) excited me more than Messi ever has. No, the dribbling wasn’t on Messi’s level, but his explosiveness was breathtaking and some of the skills he pulled off were just mad. So that absolutely debunks him being nothing more than a robotic, Gerd Muller-like player. It’s also absolutely mad that you think Ronaldo’s technique isn’t close to the players you mentioned; technique isn’t just dribbling past 10 players, it can also be striking a ball in its purest form and other things like that, in which Ronaldo is unmatched.

And what about heading technique, jumping reach etc? Ronaldo has no equal in these aspects as well. Imagine jumping two times higher than 20+ year old defenders in the most physical league in the world, at 37. He’s an absolute freak of nature.

Also, I simply can’t believe that you think Ronaldo isn’t always the man for the big occasion. Not scoring in CL finals doesn’t mean playing badly, and notwithstanding that, he still has more CL final goals than Messi, alongside more semi final, quarter final and round of 16 goals. He is the top scorer in the CL by a countrymile, and has more goals than Messi in international tournaments, of which he’s won two of, one more than Messi. Messi scoring 300000 goals against Eibar, Granada and Mallorca in his comfort zone, or you bringing up Messi’s Playmaker of The Year awards (wtf?) won’t change that.
Yet, he won way less awards in that period as on that talent front, he just cannot compete with Messi, it is a different league. The times where he won CLs + BODs multiple times were when he transformed into a goal scorer making him a way less exciting player. That's something repeated by many observers actually that he won most when he was a less exciting player. Ronaldo at United was a completely different player compared to his last 6 years at Real, then at Juve and now at United. His transformation is not customizing or adjusting, it is compromising, compromising on his creativity, dribbling etc. abilities to maximize his goal scoring stats by being a striker as he is unable to do all these things at once unlike Messi bar his United years and early time at Real to an extent (even at his peak, he was nowhere near Messi in terms of playmaking or dribbling skills). That alone shows he does not really belong the top tier that Pele, Maradona and Messi belong to and why his name is not mentioned alongside Pele and Maradona unlike Messi. Imagine Maradona/Messi becoming a poacher to maximize their goal scoring stats to stand out, most Maradona/Messi fans would not appreciate that.

I do not have much to say if you think Ronaldo is in the same league as Maradona, Messi, Zidane, Xavi in terms of technique, even the most ardent Ronaldo supporters would avoid entering such a conversation tbh as it is sorry but laughable, you probably are confused about the definition of technique. Watch Zidane, Messi, Xavi, Maradona on youtube to have a better understanding of what technique looks like.

If you think, that heading ability has the same importance as passing, playmaking, dribbling, again you belong to a very very rare actually an unheard group as football world does not care about heading skills compared to the ones I listed above. Imagine watching football to see heading skills or jumping reach :lol: Heading is a weapon in a forward's arsenal in scoring, it is not a separate category like playmaking, scoring, passing. Sorry but your post is full of delusion. Even ordinary players can have amazing heading abilities. You do not see ordinary players with amazing creativity, playmaking skills, technique or dribbling skills. There is a reason football community and fans put a special emphasis on these skills, these are are football basics 101. It seems, for some Ronaldo fans, dribbling, playmaking, creativity basically all factors that put Maradona, Platini, Xavi, Zidane, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Kaka, Cruyff among all time greats has the same importance as heading technique, jumping reach. These are the major categories where Ronaldo is not even a top 10-20 player.

You are just confirming my point talking about goal stats, goals this goals that like most Ronaldo fans as if that's the end all. I do not think that you have ever watched Messi play tbh and can distinguish them in terms of what they do & are capable of doing on the pitch. Ronaldo actually is the one that is frequently called a stat-padder or penaldo by many, not Messi, I am sorry, you again seem to have got confused.

Messi won MVP awards in every single international tournament he competed in, WC, Copas, Olympics, U-2O WC, you name it. Ronaldo has a big fat "0", 4 WCs, 5 Euros, and a zero MVP award, very embarrassing even Zagorakis with Greece, Forlan with Uruguay, Modric with Croatia was able to win one in a EC or WC. No other GOAT contender has such a flaw in their resume. Also, you are confusing as usual the team awards with the individual awards, football is a team sport, you know. I have listed all other individual award differences above, you can check again.

For one final time, Messi is a GOAT level playmaker+dribbler+goal scorer while Ronaldo is a GOAT level goal scorer, therefore they are not directly comparable or substitutable.
 
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Grib

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Yet, he won way less awards in that period as on that talent front, he just cannot compete with Messi, it is a different league. The times where he won CLs + BODs multiple times were when he transformed into a goal scorer making him a way less exciting player. That's something repeated by many observers actually that he won most when he was a less exciting player. Ronaldo at United was a completely different player compared to his last 6 years at Real, then at Juve and now at United. His transformation is not customizing or adjusting, it is compromising, compromising on his creativity, dribbling etc. abilities to maximize his goal scoring stats by being a striker as he is unable to do all these things at once unlike Messi bar his United years and early time at Real to an extent (even at his peak, he was nowhere near Messi in terms of playmaking or dribbling skills). That alone shows he does not really belong the top tier that Pele, Maradona and Messi belong to and why his name is not mentioned alongside Pele and Maradona unlike Messi. Imagine Maradona/Messi becoming a poacher to maximize their goal scoring stats to stand out, most Maradona/Messi fans would not appreciate that.

I do not have much to say if you think Ronaldo is in the same league as Maradona, Messi, Zidane, Xavi in terms of technique, even the most ardent Ronaldo supporters would avoid entering such a conversation tbh as it is sorry but laughable, you probably are confused about the definition of technique. Watch Zidane, Messi, Xavi, Maradona on youtube to have a better understanding of what technique looks like.

If you think, that heading ability has the same importance as passing, playmaking, dribbling, again you belong to a very very rare actually an unheard group as football world does not care about heading skills compared to the ones I listed above. Imagine watching football to see heading skills or jumping reach :lol: Heading is a weapon in a forward's arsenal in scoring, it is not a separate category like playmaking, scoring, passing. Sorry but your post is full of delusion. Even ordinary players can have amazing heading abilities. You do not see ordinary players with amazing creativity, playmaking skills, technique or dribbling skills. There is a reason football community and fans put a special emphasis on these skills, these are are football basics 101. It seems, for some Ronaldo fans, dribbling, playmaking, creativity basically all factors that put Maradona, Platini, Xavi, Zidane, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Kaka, Cruyff among all time greats has the same importance as heading technique, jumping reach. These are the major categories where Ronaldo is not even a top 10-20 player.

You are just confirming my point talking about goal stats, goals this goals that like most Ronaldo fans as if that's the end all. I do not think that you have ever watched Messi play tbh and can distinguish them in terms of what they do & are capable of doing on the pitch. Ronaldo actually is the one that is frequently called a stat-padder or penaldo by many, not Messi, I am sorry, you again seem to have got confused.

Messi won MVP awards in every single international tournament he competed in, WC, Copas, Olympics, U-2O WC, you name it. Ronaldo has a big fat "0", 4 WCs, 5 Euros, and a zero MVP award, very embarrassing even Zagorakis with Greece, Forlan with Uruguay, Modric with Croatia was able to win one in a EC or WC. No other GOAT contender has such a flaw in their resume. Also, you are confusing as usual the team awards with the individual awards, football is a team sport, you know. I have listed all other individual award differences above, you can check again.

For one final time, Messi is a GOAT level playmaker+dribbler+goal scorer while Ronaldo is a GOAT level goal scorer, therefore they are not directly comparable or substitutable.
easy ignore here
 

RedRonaldo

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Ronaldo from 2006-2014 (the year he decided to become a machine) excited me more than Messi ever has. No, the dribbling wasn’t on Messi’s level, but his explosiveness was breathtaking and some of the skills he pulled off were just mad. So that absolutely debunks him being nothing more than a robotic, Gerd Muller-like player. It’s also absolutely mad that you think Ronaldo’s technique isn’t close to the players you mentioned; technique isn’t just dribbling past 10 players, it can also be striking a ball in its purest form and other things like that, in which Ronaldo is unmatched.

And what about heading technique, jumping reach etc? Ronaldo has no equal in these aspects as well. Imagine jumping two times higher than 20+ year old defenders in the most physical league in the world, at 37. He’s an absolute freak of nature.

Also, I simply can’t believe that you think Ronaldo isn’t always the man for the big occasion. Not scoring in CL finals doesn’t mean playing badly, and notwithstanding that, he still has more CL final goals than Messi, alongside more semi final, quarter final and round of 16 goals. He is the top scorer in the CL by a countrymile, and has more goals than Messi in international tournaments, of which he’s won two of, one more than Messi. Messi scoring 300000 goals against Eibar, Granada and Mallorca in his comfort zone, or you bringing up Messi’s Playmaker of The Year awards (wtf?) won’t change that.

Last but not least, Ronaldo moving to Juventus and back here are considered as mistakes by the fans? Good grief, he was the fastest player in history to reach 100 goals for Juventus, and I dare you ask anyone here whether he’s a failure with his 17 goals this season or not. If that’s failure, then I dread to think what Messi’s move to PSG has been.
Although I think Messi was still a greater talent (better dribbler) and of course has enjoyed more success over that period, but in terms of my personal preference, Ronaldo simply excited me more too with his overall game during that period of time. He was always like playing on a mission on his own, while always managed to drive the whole team forward with his unstoppable all action attacking play. I think this is the version which inspired the likes of young Mbappe too.
 

DoneDaDa

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How can he lack the overall influence when all of the goals he's scored has contributed to, for example, Real Madrid winning the CL 3 x in a row, La Liga's, Premier Leagues, Serie A's as well as leading his country to a Euro's. He has an unrivalled winning mentality and dedication to the fitness in the game, he's pretty much an inspiring figure for multiple athletes worldwide football and otherwise, hell even Kylian Mbappe idolises him, oh as well as people outside of the sport.

I'm not going to disagree with you I think Messi is the naturally more gifted player, we are so very lucky to see them both in their primes in our lifetime. Anytime Messi had the ball it was just complete and utter magic, Ronaldo is a fantastic player, arguably the second best to ever play the game based on pure achievement alone, but Messi is definitely number 1. The only thing I'm going to say is, Messi did virtually all of this at Barcelona, a league that, at the time, was barely competitive and he did it surrounded by arguably one of the best teams to ever play football with one of the best midfields to ever play football. I don't mean this to take anything away from Messi of course but the guy has never tested himself outside of his comfort zone. Ronaldo has done all he has done in 4 different leagues, 5 stints at 4 different clubs, with various degrees of challenges and he's dominated in every single one.

Now at the twilights of their career as you say, Ronaldo is smashing it in an absolutely appalling team, for the most part, in the Premier League and the CL and is pretty much the reason we are still as "competitive" as we are, without him we wouldn't have got out of the CL group. Messi looks completely out of it at PSG amongst all those megastars, PSG wouldn't miss him if he wasn't there.

Again, won't argue, Messi should really be #1 based on pure natural gifted footballing ability, but lets not take anything away from Ronaldo and all that he has - and still continues - to achieve.
I agree with most of what you say, but I feel this is way to simplistic here. Ronaldo went to some of the biggest team in Europe. He went to United under one if not the greatest manager in Fergie, the team he was part even after he left they won league titles and reached a CL final to further see how good that team actually was, he then went to Madrid who spent billions in forming a squad, they literally at a point under Mou had the most expensive team assembled, further more he played under manager like Mou and Carlo, both who were CL winning manager, as well as Fergie only Zidane achieved the feat a long side him, Messi never played with a CL winning level manager, the two Pep and Enrique won the CL along with Messi. Further more, Messi has been surrounded by subpar coaching throughout his time in Barcelona. Madrid have won league titles and even went further in the CL then Ronaldo after he left these aren't some bum teams.

Now let me put a disclaimer here, I'm not down playing Ronaldo success here, but virtually saying how important it is to have a competent manager and board, as I think United fans of all people can relate to this, without it your going to look poor and incompetent.

Ronaldo list of manager: Fergie, Pellegrini, Mou, Ancelotti, Rafa, Zidane, Allegri, Sarri, Pirlo, Ole and Ralf
Messi List of manager: Rajikaard, Pep, Tito, Tata, Enrique, Ernesto, Setien, Koman and Poch

You look at the list its very one sided list here, Ronaldo has 4 CL winning managers that have won it before coaching him, 1 winner with him, so a total of 5 CL winning level manager, even Allegri has reach 2 CL finals, while Messi zero CL winning managers, but 3 winners with him, a grand total of 3 CL winning level managers here, even Rijkaard its not like his career went anywhere after Barcelona. Therefor it's not surprising the two good manager he's had were some of his best time frame in Pep and Enrique. Pep is probably the only one that can sit at the table with manager like Carlo, Mou, Zidane and Fergie level.

It's not surprising to see Ronaldo when he had top teams and managers he was able to touch the sky likewise Messi, but since he has been around subpar quality in terms of players and coaching, sure he has great numbers, but he isn't really winning much and setting the world alight here.

Just like some of the best managers need the right quality and talent in order to create dominate winning teams, the players also need this when all things are said and done. I feel we are assessing Messi time in Barcelona, as if he responsible for subpar coaching, for recruiting these expensive flops and not getting the best of out all the players there.
 

SirAnderson

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mEsSi iS tHe Goat, nO RoNnIe iS tHe gOaT, nO mEsSi iS tHe Goat, nO RoNnIe iS tHe gOaT, nO mEsSi iS tHe Goat, nO RoNnIe iS tHe gOaT. :houllier: :lol:

And on and on and on...till the end of time.
This thread is should be submitted for sciences purposes and the brains in here studied, might just help save humanity from itself.
 

SportingCP96

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Even if Messi retired in 2012 and Ronaldo continues like he does until he's 40, it wouldn't be close to me. Ronaldo was always only able to compete with Messi on scoring sheets but not on the football pitch. He's an incredible player but lacks the overall influence that other greats have had.

So to me it's a bit funny that Ronaldo supporters still come in this thread everytime he scores two or three and proclaim he's the better player. The story of both players is already written and the idea that he could catch up with Messi by scoring decently up until a high age is just a testament to the fact that those people still don't get what made Messi the player he is/was.

Let's be real, the ship has sailed now both are players have declined drastically. Ronaldo would have to achieve a significantly higher level than in the early 2010s to change my mind and he can barely show his 2016+ form once in 5 games or so. I'd probably still take the Messi from last season over every iteration of CR7.
That first paragraph is the biggest load of crap. Ronaldo for his whole career has been a better big game player. Game changer. When a team needs him the most he’s their time and time again.

More proven then Messi as well and as Messi is finding out it’s not easy to switch leagues. Ronaldo is also for a majority of his career been far better and influential then Messi at the international level.

If you prefer Messi fine but ti say even if he retired in 2012 it “would not be close” is quite frankly retarded. That’s really the only word to use.

Also the fact that this debate has gone on for 15 years is a testament to how close they are in level.

Messi multiple meltdowns in the CL losing 2+ goals advantages is something that would never happens with Ronaldo. Mentally they aren’t even in the same stratosphere. It’s like comparing MJ mindset to Ben Simmons mind set.

“Ohh but Ronaldo is just goals” that’s crap. Young Ronaldo was one of the greatest skilled and dribblers of all time…. He has morphed his game 3x that’s unheard of.
 

Rojow

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mEsSi iS tHe Goat, nO RoNnIe iS tHe gOaT, nO mEsSi iS tHe Goat, nO RoNnIe iS tHe gOaT, nO mEsSi iS tHe Goat, nO RoNnIe iS tHe gOaT. :houllier: :lol:

And on and on and on...till the end of time.
This thread is should be submitted for sciences purposes and the brains in here studied, might just help save humanity from itself.
You are right. No one is going to change his opinion. At least not the one arguing here. It's an endless discussion.
 

SportingCP96

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Some Ronaldo fans sometimes say Messi has depended heavily on players like Xavi & Iniesta under Guardiola and without them would not achieve much..
Below is what he achieved when they both left (Xavi in 2015 & Iniesta in 2018) starting with 2018-2019 with a mediocre Barca squad.. Also keep in mind, Koeman, Valverde's and others' game plans are not the same as Guardiola's.

2019 Ballon D'or
2021 Ballon D'or
2019 Golden Shoe
2019 IFFHS best playmaker
2020 & 2021 IFFHS best playmaker (2.)
2019 Champions League Top Goal Scorer- 12 gol
2019-2020-2021 Pichichi - La Liga Top Goal Scorer (3 years in a row - same number Ronaldo had in 9 years at Real)
2019-2020 La Liga most assists (2 years in a row)
2021 La Liga most assists (2.)

2014 WC MVP
2015-2021 Copa MVP
2008 Olympics MVP

That comfort zone argument never made any sense for me tbh when Ronaldo does not have any playmaking skills or special passing skills/vision etc. For me, Ronaldo has not been leaving his comfort zone (playing as a striker/poacher) coming deeper in the midfield trying to dictate the game when his team needs that as he lacks the technique to be able to do that. Messi has way more responsibilities than Ronaldo, and for Messi to be considered to have a good game, he needs to do way more than Ronaldo. For ex., nobody would say Messi had a good game if he scores a tap-in and is invisible otherwise..

Other than Guardiola, Messi never had the chance to work with top managers such as SAF, Mourinho, Ancelotti, Zidane or Allegri. You know managers matter a lot in this game. Most Ronaldo fans began to realize the importance of managers when Ronaldo began working under Pirlo & Ole.. They would never consider the impact of managers for years when Barca was being managed by mediocre managers.

Ronaldo's experience at Juve and current United just showed us how much he needs to have an amazing Real & United team under SAF to win CL titles and to be competitive in the league which is not surprising.
I can take this a part piece by piece if I had the time.

For starts Ronaldo was never just goals. He has averaged more then 10 assists per season on multiple occasions. Young Ronaldo was one of the best dribblers and skilled the game has ever seen.

“Just a poacher and never left his comfort zone”

Hilarious, he was a winger first out and out, then he became a goal scoring winger, then he became a left forward, lastly a striker (not a poacher those are very different things).

Messi most success came with the spine of the greatest national team of all time….you know…the team that cleaned up 2 Euros and a WC…without…Messi… surprise surprise.

Messi stayed in Barca because he was scared to leave, you can see in Argentina he was a lesser player then the Barca version.

Messi has had more big games shrinks and loss leads then I can remember from a goat level player and he has not had enough of those games where you carry a team back almost single-handedly. Ronaldo has MULTIPLE of those. Ronaldo also has DOUBLE the KO round goals then Messi in the CL. It’s not even remotely close in the CL! Also a 3 peat CL win…..something Messi could never do even though he has had better teams.

You talk about 7 Balon d or when everyone knows Lewa should has won last one and iniesta or Sneijder in 2010. Also Ronaldo got robbed of one that went to luka when he went to Juve and because of rape Allegations.

Look at Messi and his struggles in ligue 1 of all leagues and at 34….. 34 year old Ronaldo in PSG wins the CL.

“Ronaldo struggles show he needs a great team” you mean a 37 year old Ronaldo? That’s how great he is that your saying a 37 year old Ronaldo can’t win a CL.

Ronaldo with Portugal has qualified for EVERY competition (was not like this before him)

3 finals 2 wins, 2 semi finals in world cups and euros. Only ever trophies won by Portugal was worn Ronaldo.

Messi finally won a copa after a million tries because the copa is such a weak competition that in every final Brazil or Argentina are their. That’s how much of a Quality gap their is. The fecking nations league is more competitive and hold more weight then the Copa. Also let’s not forget how mentally weak Messi is that he RETIRED from his national team after HE missed the penalty that made him lose. That’s just the weakest thing I’ve ever seen. This alone disqualifies him. Intangibles like that are VERY important when determining greatness and one thing is for sure…you can say Messi is better then Ronaldo (that’s personably preference) but one thing that is not debatable is Ronaldo is a GREATER player. Better and greater are two very different things.


This is what’s called murder with words. Goodnight.
 
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RedRonaldo

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Even if Messi retired in 2012 and Ronaldo continues like he does until he's 40, it wouldn't be close to me. Ronaldo was always only able to compete with Messi on scoring sheets but not on the football pitch. He's an incredible player but lacks the overall influence that other greats have had.

So to me it's a bit funny that Ronaldo supporters still come in this thread everytime he scores two or three and proclaim he's the better player. The story of both players is already written and the idea that he could catch up with Messi by scoring decently up until a high age is just a testament to the fact that those people still don't get what made Messi the player he is/was.

Let's be real, the ship has sailed now both are players have declined drastically. Ronaldo would have to achieve a significantly higher level than in the early 2010s to change my mind and he can barely show his 2016+ form once in 5 games or so. I'd probably still take the Messi from last season over every iteration of CR7.
I know that's only personal opinion, but that some crazy claims here. Maybe its you who can't come to terms with the crowd who start favouring Ronaldo over Messi here.

You are clearly favouring peak/favouritism on style over everything else, which is not much different to some who might claim Ronaldinho being better than Di Stefano or Cruyff even if he retires at 25 or something.
 

SportingCP96

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I know that's only personal opinion, but that some crazy claims here. Maybe its you who can't come to terms with the crowd who start favouring Ronaldo over Messi here.

You are clearly favouring peak/favouritism on style over everything else, which is not much different to some who might claim Ronaldinho being better than Di Stefano or Cruyff even if he retires at 25 or something.
Claims like that make having a sensible discussion pointless.
 

Bebestation

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Messi was a beauty of a player- but to some that beauty was helped by the make up and foundations of FC Barcelona - plenty of people saw the difference for Argentina and was wondering how he would play in a different league and a different team.

As soon as that happens then the excuses come up.

Ronaldo is a success. Messi is more a beauty. A beauty that needed the right foundation.
 

SportingCP96

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Messi was a beauty of a player- but to some that beauty was helped by the make up and foundations of FC Barcelona - plenty of people saw the difference for Argentina and was wondering how he would play in a different league and a different team.

As soon as that happens then the excuses come up.

Ronaldo is a success. Messi is more a beauty. A beauty that needed the right foundation.
Amen. Messi only CL wins came with a team that won 2 Euros and a World Cup basically without a striker particularly in the end of their reign…..

5 CL 2 different teams, a 3 peat, DOUBLE the knockout goals then Messi (this can not be understated enough)

Messi is struggling in ligue 1….imagine in EPL. He would say he can’t do it anymore and leave. Wouldn’t be the first time either as he has done it with Argentina.
 

RedRonaldo

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Amen. Messi only CL wins came with a team that won 2 Euros and a World Cup basically without a striker particularly in the end of their reign…..

5 CL 2 different teams, a 3 peat, DOUBLE the knockout goals then Messi (this can not be understated enough)

Messi is struggling in ligue 1….imagine in EPL. He would say he can’t do it anymore and leave. Wouldn’t be the first time either as he has done it with Argentina.
Well and I'd like to add the followings facts too:

- Ronaldo has more career goals (807 vs 759)
- Ronaldo has more all time records (career/international/CL/major tournament etc)
- Ronaldo has more European success and is better in CL
- Ronaldo has arguably better international career (Euro > Copa, 115 goals > 80 goals)
- Ronaldo is far more proven outside La Liga and across different leagues
- Ronaldo has better goalscoring ratio in La Liga
- Ronaldo ages better
- Ronaldo has better mentality and bigger impact

But I admitted I am not the type of person inclined to go all one-sided to trigger more response of any sort. So, to balance things out bit, here's the counter arguments for sake of fairness:

- Messi has more Ballon D'ors (7 vs 5)
- Messi has more individual awards (golden boot, mvp awards etc)
- Messi has more career assists (325 vs 229)
- Messi has more domestic success and is better in La Liga
- Messi has better goalscoring ratio over career
- Messi peaks higher
- Messi is more talented and performs better


Which makes posts like Zehner one suggesting that it's not even close contest for him even if Messi retires 10 years ago, sound so ridiculous. Its always a close contest, and most discussed rivalry on all sports over past 15 years or so.
 
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Gehrman

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Mickey Mouse tournament, the nations league is arguably more competitive then the copa where either Brazil or Argentina are in the final every freaking time and a Balon d or that should have gone to Lewa. Ronaldo was fresh off a CL win at 34… scoring 2 in the final.
He didn't score in the final against Liverpool when he was 33.
 

FattyFooty

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Well and I'd like to add the followings facts too:

- Ronaldo has more career goals (807 vs 759)
- Ronaldo has more all time records (career/international/CL/major tournament etc)
- Ronaldo has more European success and is better in CL
- Ronaldo has arguably better international career (Euro > Copa, 115 goals > 80 goals)
- Ronaldo is far more proven outside La Liga and across different leagues
- Ronaldo has better goalscoring ratio in La Liga
- Ronaldo ages better
- Ronaldo has better mentality and bigger impact

But I admitted I am not the type of person inclined to go all one-sided to trigger more response of any sort. So, to balance things out bit, here's the counter arguments for sake of fairness:

- Messi has more Ballon D'ors (7 vs 5)
- Messi has more individual awards (golden boot, mvp awards etc)
- Messi has more career assists (325 vs 229)
- Messi has more domestic success and is better in La Liga
- Messi has better goalscoring ratio over career
- Messi peaks higher
- Messi is more talented and performs better


Which makes posts like Zehner one suggesting that it's not even close contest for him even if Messi retires 10 years ago, sound so ridiculous. Its always a close contest, and most discussed rivalry on all sports over past 15 years or so.
I disagree with the Messi peaks highest.

That year Ronaldo scored like 15 goals in the knockouts stages of CL can and could not have been done better by any player on this planet.

Messi could never have gone on a rampage like that. He never got even close to beeing that type of machine.
 

Gehrman

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Ronaldo had his best game of the season yesterday and an impressive one at 37 but let's not pretend he's not been wank for most of the season. Messi has been more wank though.
 
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Gehrman

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I disagree with the Messi peaks highest.

That year Ronaldo scored like 15 goals in the knockouts stages of CL can and could not have been done better by any player on this planet.

Messi could never have gone on a rampage like that. He never got even close to beeing that type of machine.
Disagree. Messi is one of the most prolific scorers of all time, combine that with his goat dribbling ability, vision and passing I'd say in his peak and prime he was more special to watch.

If one were to say that Ronaldo is the better goalscorer I'd argue perhaps only just depending on which goals we value like in the cl. I think Messi overtook Ronaldo in open play goals a while ago but maybe that's changed now
 

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No, I never said that. Neymar is probably more talented but hasn't peaked as highly as Ronaldo and obviously never came close to his consistency. And Ronaldo's best goals are far better than Neymar's best goals overall.



I'm not reducing Ronaldo to nothing but a goal machine. But you aren't comparing him with somebody like Lewandowski or Suarez who are/were excellent at linking up with his team mates as well yet still pale compared to Cristiano. You are comparing him to the very best players the game has ever seen and in comparison to them, he is limited.
You're doing it again. The fact you only see Ronaldo as another lewandowski or Suarez just exposes how little you know of Ronaldo and his career as a footballer.

It's the sort of logic where you should only compare Messi to hazard as he's just a better version. Makes no sense and if anyone said that it would be evident they don't understand Messi just as how you have no clue about Ronaldo beyond him being just some finisher.
Bad reading comprehension or do you just understand what you want to understand?
 

MalaysianRed7

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Although I think Messi was still a greater talent (better dribbler) and of course has enjoyed more success over that period, but in terms of my personal preference, Ronaldo simply excited me more too with his overall game during that period of time. He was always like playing on a mission on his own, while always managed to drive the whole team forward with his unstoppable all action attacking play. I think this is the version which inspired the likes of young Mbappe too.
One million percent. Haaland, Mbappe and Vlahovic have all publicly called him the greatest of all time, and every single one of them remind me of Ronaldo in the latter part (when he started scoring goals) in his first stint with us. That version of Ronaldo, especially the 2007-08 42 goal one, was nothing short of unstoppable.
 

Berbasbullet

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Honestly they were both so good and effective at their peaks that you can only really seperate them by preference in my opinion. Such a shame that time gets everyone.
 

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I know that's only personal opinion, but that some crazy claims here. Maybe its you who can't come to terms with the crowd who start favouring Ronaldo over Messi here.

You are clearly favouring peak/favouritism on style over everything else, which is not much different to some who might claim Ronaldinho being better than Di Stefano or Cruyff even if he retires at 25 or something.
Yes, I value peak over consistency, definitely. Ronaldinho had a short peak but for me still is one of the best players of the 21st century. That's basically the definition of "best" - who peaked the highest. You wouldn't have somebody good but significantly worse ahead of him just because he maintained that worse level for his whole career.

And no, it's NOT favouritism of style :rolleyes: This is not about style but influence. Dribbling and passing isn't just about catching eyes, you know. It's the bread and butter, goals are the icing on the cake.
 

MalaysianRed7

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Yet, he won way less awards in that period as on that talent front, he just cannot compete with Messi, it is a different league. The times where he won CLs + BODs multiple times were when he transformed into a goal scorer making him a way less exciting player. That's something repeated by many observers actually that he won most when he was a less exciting player. Ronaldo at United was a completely different player compared to his last 6 years at Real, then at Juve and now at United. His transformation is not customizing or adjusting, it is compromising, compromising on his creativity, dribbling etc. abilities to maximize his goal scoring stats by being a striker as he is unable to do all these things at once unlike Messi bar his United years and early time at Real to an extent (even at his peak, he was nowhere near Messi in terms of playmaking or dribbling skills). That alone shows he does not really belong the top tier that Pele, Maradona and Messi belong to and why his name is not mentioned alongside Pele and Maradona unlike Messi. Imagine Maradona/Messi becoming a poacher to maximize their goal scoring stats to stand out, most Maradona/Messi fans would not appreciate that.

I do not have much to say if you think Ronaldo is in the same league as Maradona, Messi, Zidane, Xavi in terms of technique, even the most ardent Ronaldo supporters would avoid entering such a conversation tbh as it is sorry but laughable, you probably are confused about the definition of technique. Watch Zidane, Messi, Xavi, Maradona on youtube to have a better understanding of what technique looks like.

If you think, that heading ability has the same importance as passing, playmaking, dribbling, again you belong to a very very rare actually an unheard group as football world does not care about heading skills compared to the ones I listed above. Imagine watching football to see heading skills or jumping reach :lol: Heading is a weapon in a forward's arsenal in scoring, it is not a separate category like playmaking, scoring, passing. Sorry but your post is full of delusion. Even ordinary players can have amazing heading abilities. You do not see ordinary players with amazing creativity, playmaking skills, technique or dribbling skills. There is a reason football community and fans put a special emphasis on these skills, these are are football basics 101. It seems, for some Ronaldo fans, dribbling, playmaking, creativity basically all factors that put Maradona, Platini, Xavi, Zidane, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Kaka, Cruyff among all time greats has the same importance as heading technique, jumping reach. These are the major categories where Ronaldo is not even a top 10-20 player.

You are just confirming my point talking about goal stats, goals this goals that like most Ronaldo fans as if that's the end all. I do not think that you have ever watched Messi play tbh and can distinguish them in terms of what they do & are capable of doing on the pitch. Ronaldo actually is the one that is frequently called a stat-padder or penaldo by many, not Messi, I am sorry, you again seem to have got confused.

Messi won MVP awards in every single international tournament he competed in, WC, Copas, Olympics, U-2O WC, you name it. Ronaldo has a big fat "0", 4 WCs, 5 Euros, and a zero MVP award, very embarrassing even Zagorakis with Greece, Forlan with Uruguay, Modric with Croatia was able to win one in a EC or WC. No other GOAT contender has such a flaw in their resume. Also, you are confusing as usual the team awards with the individual awards, football is a team sport, you know. I have listed all other individual award differences above, you can check again.

For one final time, Messi is a GOAT level playmaker+dribbler+goal scorer while Ronaldo is a GOAT level goal scorer, therefore they are not directly comparable or substitutable.
A lot of this post is quite nonsensical to say the least. I mean, first you bring up Playmaker of The Year awards and discredit Ronaldo’s big game credentials (tell you what, I’m pretty sure even Messi wouldn’t consider himself a better big game player than Ronaldo). Now, you’re talking down the importance of physical attributes and bringing up….being the Player of an international tournament, none of which Messi even deserved and some of which, particularly World Cup 2014, when he genuinely looked embarrassed to pick it up while the likes of Schweinsteiger and Kroos looked on. Crazy.

Just one final question: have more goals been scored through heading in a cross or dribbling past 4-5 men and sticking it in?
 

sherrinford

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Claims like that make having a sensible discussion pointless.
What is actually wrong with that?

It isn't at all sensible to think that one player can somehow surpass another by performing at an inferior level for longer. If we say Messi reached a level greater than anything Ronaldo has been able to from 2008 to 2012, then it stands to reason that even had he retired at that point the fact that Ronaldo has gone on to perform to a historically great level far beyond that wouldn't make him a better player, just as him performing to a good level now and for a number of years more wouldn't make him a better player. Ronaldo would have to, or would have had to, perform to a superior standard than Messi's during that period for long enough to say that it wasn't just a temporary spell but a new, higher level.
 

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One million percent. Haaland, Mbappe and Vlahovic have all publicly called him the greatest of all time, and every single one of them remind me of Ronaldo in the latter part (when he started scoring goals) in his first stint with us. That version of Ronaldo, especially the 2007-08 42 goal one, was nothing short of unstoppable.
One of the reasons that players are inspired by Ronaldo is because Messi natural ability can't be reached. His dribbling is something you can't teach. Ronaldo has abundance of natural talent and his athletic ability can be admired by other athletic players. Apart from Messi's accelaration and agility, he was never that athelic. His attributes can't be teached or reached by most great players. Someone like Mpabbe isn't like Cristiano but closer to Cristiano than to a midget wizard like Messi.
 
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Zehner

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What is actually wrong with that?

It isn't at all sensible to think that one player can somehow surpass another by performing at an inferior level for longer. If we say Messi reached a level greater than anything Ronaldo has been able to from 2008 to 2012, then it stands to reason that even had he retired at that point the fact that Ronaldo has gone on to perform to a historically great level far beyond that wouldn't make him a better player, just as him performing to a good level now and for a number of years more wouldn't make him a better player. Ronaldo would have to, or would have had to, perform to a superior standard than Messi's during that period for long enough to say that it wasn't just a temporary spell but a new, higher level.
Exactly :) It's no dig at Ronaldo by any means, just logic.

Messi was a beauty of a player- but to some that beauty was helped by the make up and foundations of FC Barcelona - plenty of people saw the difference for Argentina and was wondering how he would play in a different league and a different team.

As soon as that happens then the excuses come up.

Ronaldo is a success. Messi is more a beauty. A beauty that needed the right foundation.
Messi's a bit like your extremely attractive co-worker who's doing an amazing job but is constantly reduced to her looks because regardless of how well she does, some will never be able to see past them.
 

SportingCP96

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He didn't score in the final against Liverpool when he was 33.
Jesus Christ. I made the correction 3x already

Juve. 17/18 season quarter final. 2 goals in Turin one being the best goal in CL history and then the penalty in the return leg.
 

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If I had to pick one of the two to win me a game for anyone other than Barcelona I'd pick Ronnie. If I had to pick one of the two to win me a game for Barcelona I'd go with Messi.
 

SportingCP96

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One of the reasons that players are inspired by Ronaldo is because Messi natural ability can't be reached. His dribbling is something you can't teach. Ronaldo has abundance of natural talent and his athletic ability can be admired by other athletic players. Apart from Messi's accelaration and agility, he was never that athelic. His attributes can't be teached or reached by most great players. Someone like Mpabbe isn't like Cristiano but closer to Cristiano than to a midget wizard like Messi.
Except it can be…. Messi is not a unique 1/1 player, we have had a Messi before and some might argue a better version albeit for a shorter period of time. His name was Diego Maradona. In fact their have been many brilliant players who were short and dribbled well with their low center of gravity.

Ronaldo is a 1/1 in the sport. Their has never been a guy who has his build, that fast, that strong, scores easily with the right or left foot, S tier level skills and dribbling ability, S tier heading ability, in fact probably the best header of the ball ever, blistering Pace, over 6 feet. Scores in any way shape or form and is also a brilliant crosser of the ball.

If you built a player in the lab it would look exactly like Ronaldo.
 

SportingCP96

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Yes, I value peak over consistency, definitely. Ronaldinho had a short peak but for me still is one of the best players of the 21st century. That's basically the definition of "best" - who peaked the highest. You wouldn't have somebody good but significantly worse ahead of him just because he maintained that worse level for his whole career.

And no, it's NOT favouritism of style :rolleyes: This is not about style but influence. Dribbling and passing isn't just about catching eyes, you know. It's the bread and butter, goals are the icing on the cake.
But consistency is arguably the most important thing. Not that Messi has not been consistent because he has but everyone knew he would peak quicker and faster then Ronaldo.

Fat Ronaldo is not in this conversation of GOAT for that very reason because has he been as consistent and none injury prone as these two he would be right up their.
 

Gehrman

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Except it can be…. Messi is not a unique 1/1 player, we have had a Messi before and some might argue a better version albeit for a shorter period of time. His name was Diego Maradona. In fact their have been many brilliant players who were short and dribbled well with their low center of gravity.

Ronaldo is a 1/1 in the sport. Their has never been a guy who has his build, that fast, that strong, scores easily with the right or left foot, S tier level skills and dribbling ability, S tier heading ability, in fact probably the best header of the ball ever, blistering Pace, over 6 feet. Scores in any way shape or form and is also a brilliant crosser of the ball.

If you built a player in the lab it would look exactly like Ronaldo.
Ronaldo over the course of his career was never an S tier dribbler. At least not consistently. In his era. The stats don't lie. There have been better dribblers than him apart from Messi. Also as much as Maradonna and Messi might resemble each other, Messi's prolific goalscoring and longevity sets him apart and his style his cleaner.. Pelé despite being short(although not that short for that era) also ticks every box and had just about everything. Including better dribbling and flair, playmaking etc. Diffferent era though.

Anyway not downplaying Ronnie, I think you can fairly place him anywhere in the the top 3 of the greatest.
 
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Bebestation

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And Messi's "unique ability" looked more unique sitting on top like a cherry on a cake at Barcelona. A team arguably until Pep and City looked like a unique team in it self - called widely to be the best football team of all time by many many a people.

His Argentina performances were great but no where near as jaw dropping to the things he produced in Spain. Literally as soon as Xavi and Iniesta left - all I ever saw season after season was this..


(Real Madrid 3-1) agg 3-2. 21/22"

( PSG vs Barcelona 4-1) agg 5-2 20/21"


(Bayern Munich 8 - 2 Barcelona) 19/20"


(Liverpool 4-0 Barcelona) agg 4-3 18/19"

(As Roma 3-0 Barcelona) 4-4agg Roma win 17/18"


Juventus 3-0 Barcelona (0-0 following game) 16-17"

( Ateltico Madrid 2-0 Barcelona) 3- 2 aggregate Atheltico. 15-16"

Then there's the :

Lionel Messi has failed to score or produce an assist in his last nine appearances against Real Madrid.

I just can't watch all this stuff and watch this stuff regularly and be calling out for him to be my GOAT.
 

Gehrman

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And Messi's "unique ability" looked more unique sitting on top like a cherry on a cake at Barcelona. A team arguably until Pep and City looked like a unique team in it self - called widely to be the best football team of all time by many many a people.

His Argentina performances were great but no where near as jaw dropping to the things he produced in Spain. Literally as soon as Xavi and Iniesta left - all I ever saw season after season was this..


(Real Madrid 3-1) agg 3-2. 21/22"

( PSG vs Barcelona 4-1) agg 5-2 20/21"


(Bayern Munich 8 - 2 Barcelona) 19/20"


(Liverpool 4-0 Barcelona) agg 4-3 18/19"

(As Roma 3-0 Barcelona) 4-4agg Roma win 17/18"


Juventus 3-0 Barcelona (0-0 following game) 16-17"

( Ateltico Madrid 2-0 Barcelona) 3- 2 aggregate Atheltico. 15-16"

Then there's the :

Lionel Messi has failed to score or produce an assist in his last nine appearances against Real Madrid.

I just can't watch all this stuff and watch this stuff regularly and be calling out for him to be my GOAT.
 

KeanoMagicHat

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Think it’s funny Ronaldo seems so insecure that he has to keep calling himself the GOAT himself. Messi doesn’t need to, other people do it for him.

“Any man who must say I am the king is no true king”.
 

Bebestation

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Think it’s funny Ronaldo seems so insecure that he has to keep calling himself the GOAT himself. Messi doesn’t need to, other people do it for him.

“Any man who must say I am the king is no true king”.
This is actually what I loved most about Ronaldo - how much he wanted to be the GOAT, made him be successful to some degree nearly everywhere he goes and the guy is still playing to an ambitious level at the age of 37 in the PL because he simply wants to be the GOAT.

His mentality is just another level.
 
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