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They should’ve waited till this season, anyways their board seems to have settled with himTweet
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They should’ve waited till this season, anyways their board seems to have settled with himTweet
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Ah great news.Tweet
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But you could make arguments for any manager for their losses. The fact that arteta just like Ole has those periods of down results should be worrying for you guys. Also, if you are going to be very particular about how things could have been different against Southampton or Brighton, well then applying the same logic, you were massively lucky against United as well. Missed penalty, weird VAR calls. These things happen.Again, I said above, I can see reasons why we lost those games. Our starting XIs were just completely unbalanced, and as soon as we got 3 starters out our squad depth wasn't upto it. Which, is partly Artetas fault, but at least I can see he's learning from it hence the changes vs Chelsea and after.
I mean you just have to look at xG in those 3 games, it's not like we were outplayed (Palace apart where we were tbf, but that is a tough game regardless). We missed quite a few chances tbh, and conceded from sloppy errors at the back, but when you are missing Tomi, Tierney and Partey, and the replacements are Cedric, Tavares and Sambi, that can happen. Again, hoping improving the squad will help with that.
I mean even just bringing in Elneny has helped massively.
You can't extrapolate PPG from a mid season start for a manager and compare them to a time where you have had a stable manager with players he wants, that understand his concepts, and have the fitness levels he requires. Conte with a full pre season and money to buy who he wanted would most likely wipe the floor with Arsenal(and us this season), and you would be outside the top 4 having had no European football, and Arteta's finishes would be 8th, 8th, 5th. Surely you would be asking questions at that point?That's a tricky one tbh. But, yes I think we'd be up there. I mean, you have to think if you extrapolated his PPG for the whole season, he'd be on 65 points, and we'd currently be on 62 points. And part of me feels we'd have signed someone in Jan if it was that tight and we had ground to make up (although that's hypothetical).
But I have no issues with that point. Conte is a good manager, working with a better and more experienced squad. If he was there the whole season, you'd very much expect them to be above us. And next season, you'd probably expect Spurs to finish above us.
That's where the recruitment in the summer is key, and also hoping that Arteta can kick on as a manager, and some of the players can go up a level too, which is the benefit of having younger players I guess. I really hope having a striker who can actually score 15+ in the league will help.
It's not about giving him no credit, it's about what you want from your team at the end of the day. If you're happy with Arsenal floating around the top 4 perennially, then enjoy Arteta's progression. If you want Arsenal to have a chance at winning the league, you really need to be bringing in one of the best managers in the world, you have the money to do so, If you'd brought in a better manager than Arteta after last season and given him 150m with no European football, who knows what state you could be in now, it's not like you're a broken bottom feeder that needs to rely on giving chances to former players. Many of us will have had the same opinion you have on Arteta for Ole, but it was just nonsense at the end of the day. It's not possible to do something like that and succeed in this league.So what does a coach that isn't Klopp or Pep need to do to actually be given credit if progress, league standings, and players seeming happy isn't enough?
Just seems like a depressing way of watching football. If you progress next season and the players seem happy, are you not going to give the coach credit just in case it ends up like it did under Ole?
Can you? Like I said, I can't explain the United/Everton losses. But, I can explain the other two periods, which to be frank are largely down to us just not having a good enough squad.But you could make arguments for any manager for their losses. The fact that arteta just like Ole has those periods of down results should be worrying for you guys. Also, if you are going to be very particular about how things could have been different against Southampton or Brighton, well then applying the same logic, you were massively lucky against United as well. Missed penalty, weird VAR calls. These things happen.
My take on arteta is he has to improve a lot. I still don't see a top manager in him but someone who is really fortunate to have ultimate authority at a club like Arsenal. He would have been sacked thrice by now if he were managing any other ambitious club.
No.. why would I ffs.You can't extrapolate PPG from a mid season start for a manager and compare them to a time where you have had a stable manager with players he wants, that understand his concepts, and have the fitness levels he requires. Conte with a full pre season and money to buy who he wanted would most likely wipe the floor with Arsenal(and us this season), and you would be outside the top 4 having had no European football, and Arteta's finishes would be 8th, 8th, 5th. Surely you would be asking questions at that point?
It's not about giving him no credit, it's about what you want from your team at the end of the day. If you're happy with Arsenal floating around the top 4 perennially, then enjoy Arteta's progression. If you want Arsenal to have a chance at winning the league, you really need to be bringing in one of the best managers in the world, you have the money to do so, If you'd brought in a better manager than Arteta after last season and given him 150m with no European football, who knows what state you could be in now, it's not like you're a broken bottom feeder that needs to rely on giving chances to former players. Many of us will have had the same opinion you have on Arteta for Ole, but it was just nonsense at the end of the day. It's not possible to do something like that and succeed in this league.
Proof, if it was needed, at what a masterful job Arteta has done in lowering expectations.No.. why would I ffs.
You are seriously asking me if i'd be questioning Arteta finishing below a more experienced and better manager, with a much better squad (if you're saying he's signing his own players too)? Why on earth would I expect Arteta to finish above him with all those things in place? This is where people just have no logic. It's bizzare. I would hope that we can compete, but I wouldn't be calling for Artetas head, that's ridiculous.
No I can't just extrapolate PPG, but who knows what would have happened if he started the season in charge, so that's all ifs and buts.
It’s like somebody used the MiB mind wipe tool on a cohort of Arsenal fans. Or they’re just very young and don’t know anything about the history of the club. Firing Wenger for “only” consistently making top four apparently never happened. And when you compare the funds made available to Wenger vs Arteta…Proof, if it was needed, at what a masterful job Arteta has done in lowering expectations.
You're misunderstanding, it's not about questioning why Arteta didn't finish above those teams, the question you should be asking is why Arteta is your manager.No.. why would I ffs.
You are seriously asking me if i'd be questioning Arteta finishing below a more experienced and better manager, with a much better squad (if you're saying he's signing his own players too)? Why on earth would I expect Arteta to finish above him with all those things in place? This is where people just have no logic. It's bizzare. I would hope that we can compete, but I wouldn't be calling for Artetas head, that's ridiculous.
No I can't just extrapolate PPG, but who knows what would have happened if he started the season in charge, so that's all ifs and buts.
I think it's brilliant personally. I don't think they realise just how good they had it with Wenger, even with the benefit of hindsight they had with United losing their legendary manager a few years earlier.It’s like somebody used the MiB mind wipe tool on a cohort of Arsenal fans. Or they’re just very young and don’t know anything about the history of the club. Firing Wenger for “only” consistently making top four apparently never happened. And when you compare the funds made available to Wenger vs Arteta…
Their competition for 4th was utterly abysmal and they still might not get it. They're just us under Solskjaer. Apart from Saka and Odegaard none of those are particularly outstanding talents. Tierney's 25 in June so he's hardly a young talent anymore.He has done well enough this season to warrant a new contract, surely?
I'm all for laughing at Arsenal and Lego Pep, but you also have to admit that they are moving in the right direction. Players like Ødegaard, Saka, Smith-Rowe, Tierney, Martinelli, etc. are looking like quality players for the future, and they have gotten rid of a lot of the deadwood. There was no way they were going to end up above City, Liverpool or Chelsea this season, so I would say 4th is a really good achievement, if they can get it. Next season will be an entirely different challenge with European football, though.
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They look great but wasn’t that long ago were saying the same about Rashford, Greenwood, Shaw and Martial. With high hopes for the likes of McT and AWB too. There’s a myth about all young players improving as they get older that United fans in particular should be aware of.He has done well enough this season to warrant a new contract, surely?
I'm all for laughing at Arsenal and Lego Pep, but you also have to admit that they are moving in the right direction. Players like Ødegaard, Saka, Smith-Rowe, Tierney, Martinelli, etc. are looking like quality players for the future, and they have gotten rid of a lot of the deadwood. There was no way they were going to end up above City, Liverpool or Chelsea this season, so I would say 4th is a really good achievement, if they can get it. Next season will be an entirely different challenge with European football, though.
Again what is this logic?Proof, if it was needed, at what a masterful job Arteta has done in lowering expectations.
Given that Arteta is on course to finish on around 70 points, who do you think we could have hired last season instead of Arteta who would have us in a better position? I'm genuinely curious because I can't think of an immediate choice off the top of my head.It's not about giving him no credit, it's about what you want from your team at the end of the day. If you're happy with Arsenal floating around the top 4 perennially, then enjoy Arteta's progression. If you want Arsenal to have a chance at winning the league, you really need to be bringing in one of the best managers in the world, you have the money to do so, If you'd brought in a better manager than Arteta after last season and given him 150m with no European football, who knows what state you could be in now, it's not like you're a broken bottom feeder that needs to rely on giving chances to former players. Many of us will have had the same opinion you have on Arteta for Ole, but it was just nonsense at the end of the day. It's not possible to do something like that and succeed in this league.
100%. They hounded out Emery as well who got to an EL final and finished 5th with 70 points in his one season there…which was deemed a failure.It’s like somebody used the MiB mind wipe tool on a cohort of Arsenal fans. Or they’re just very young and don’t know anything about the history of the club. Firing Wenger for “only” consistently making top four apparently never happened. And when you compare the funds made available to Wenger vs Arteta…
Didn't Emery get you around the same amount of points and to a Europa League final?Given that Arteta is on course to finish on around 70 points, who do you think we could have hired last season instead of Arteta who would have us in a better position? I'm genuinely curious because I can't think of an immediate choice off the top of my head.
I agree with you that Arteta probably isn't going to get us better than top 4, but I think the club are gambling that he improves as he gets more experience. He's still quite new as a manager himself
Not all but when you take 5-6 young players who are regular first teamers, you’d expect at least a couple to develop and kick on. United have been atrocious in this department (like every other department ) over this past decade. I wouldn’t use us as the example to prove it’s a myth.They look great but wasn’t that long ago were saying the same about Rashford, Greenwood, Shaw and Martial. With high hopes for the likes of McT and AWB too. There’s a myth about all young players improving as they get older that United fans in particular should be aware of.
Wasn't Conte available? Obviously anyone I mention would be pure speculation(who knows if they would go to Arsenal, but you have the money to pay them a lot and to sign players, as demonstrated), but I'm pretty sure there would have been a more qualified and better manager than Arteta available, he had 2 8th place finishes to his name and a couple of years in management at that time.Given that Arteta is on course to finish on around 70 points, who do you think we could have hired last season instead of Arteta who would have us in a better position? I'm genuinely curious because I can't think of an immediate choice off the top of my head.
I agree with you that Arteta probably isn't going to get us better than top 4, but I think the club are gambling that he improves as he gets more experience. He's still quite new as a manager himself
I was thinking about Conte when I read that post but I don't think he would have gone to Arsenal. Allegri was available too.Wasn't Conte available? Obviously anyone I mention would be pure speculation(who knows if they would go to Arsenal, but you have the money to pay them a lot and to sign players, as demonstrated), but I'm pretty sure there would have been a more qualified and better manager than Arteta available, he had 2 8th place finishes to his name and a couple of years in management at that time.
Maybe so. Still, their points total will not matter if they end up fourth, while playing a lot of youngsters. If they get CL and use that opportunity to strengthen the squad significantly, I would be pretty pleased as an Arsenal-fan.Their competition for 4th was utterly abysmal and they still might not get it. They're just us under Solskjaer. Apart from Saka and Odegaard none of those are particularly outstanding talents. Tierney's 25 in June so he's hardly a young talent anymore.
Sure, not all of them will make it, but currently they are doing well, and they are certainly making the right squad moves in my opinion, even if they probably overpaid for Ben White and Ramsdale last summer.They look great but wasn’t that long ago were saying the same about Rashford, Greenwood, Shaw and Martial. With high hopes for the likes of McT and AWB too. There’s a myth about all young players improving as they get older that United fans in particular should be aware of.
Points totals don’t matter apparently…Let's look at some numbers for Conor. We are talking whoever gets top 4 out of Arsenal & Spurs gets to the 70 point mark or there abouts.
So yeah, Conor could be actually right. Although so could we if we say the only reason Utd made top 4 in those seasons were because Arsenal monumentally shit the bed.
- Utd has only got 70 points or more in 3 seasons post Fergie
- They've made the top 4 4 times post Fergie
- 2 of those times they got 70 points & 66 point totals
- They actually finished 2nd last year with 74 points.
Connor wants to only compare this season to a hypothetical season of his imagination. He doesn’t want to compare this season to other seasons that have actually happened because it undermines his point.Look I'm just having to repeat myself over and over here, but at the end of the day, your position this season has nothing to do with any other season, it's based on how your team is playing and how the teams around you are playing.
Dunno if this is referring to our conversation, but the facts really do point to it making very little difference to where Arsenal finish in the league.No, it was sarcasm, read the conversation I've been having with the poster I responded to, he seemingly thinks that it's made very little difference that Spurs sacked their manager and got Conte in last season.
and Arteta's finishes would be 8th, 8th, 5th. Surely you would be asking questions at that point?
He came in at the end of December in his first season, and the side were in the bottom half of the table after being in the hands of a good manager in Emery, and a caretaker stint by Ljungberg. Two 8th place finishes isn't a fair representation of what happened. In his first full season he finished 8th but didn't really spend, he was given a considerable amount of money this season and they have a decent chance of finishing top 4, a successful season.he had 2 8th place finishes to his name and a couple of years in management at that time.
Yeah, I'm sure Ajax fans hated winning the league every year and dominating teams like Juventus, Real Madrid, and Dortmund in the Champions League. Who can blame them?ETH maybe, but there's a reason Ajax fans want him out so we'll see next year how he does.
Yeah, let's ignore all the context of a new manager coming in mid season and trying to get a team to adapt to his playstyle and required fitness levels, and just pretend like it was a completely level playing field because you were close to each other on points, that makes loads of sense.Points totals don’t matter apparently…
Connor wants to only compare this season to a hypothetical season of his imagination. He doesn’t want to compare this season to other seasons that have actually happened because it’
Dunno if this is referring to my points, but the facts really do point to it making very little difference to where Arsenal finish in the league.
Conte joined 10 matches into the season. Arsenal were ahead of Spurs by two points. This suggests that Spurs start to the season wasn’t exactly a fatal blow to their prospects.
There have been 24 matches since and… Arsenal are ahead of Spurs by 2 points. Despite 72 points being up for grabs and Spurs spending heavily in Jan, the gap is exactly the same.
Spurs will have played 3/4 of the season under Conte with a whopping 2 points to make up. The circumstances of this hypothetical season where Spurs keep Arsenal out of the top four that you keep referencing… is incredibly similar to what has actually happened this season. We don’t have to make up scenarios, we can just look at reality.
Where teams end up in the league is primarily due to how they play over 38 games. I would have thought that would be the least controversial statement possible, but apparently not.
I'm not sure how many times I've to make this point, but I have never said Arteta has made no progress, I'm simply providing my opinion that there are caveats, and that I don't think he's the manager that will ultimately get Arsenal back to where I would hope their fans would want to be.He came in at the end of December in his first season, and the side were in the bottom half of the table after being in the hands of a good manager in Emery, and a caretaker stint by Ljungberg. Two 8th place finishes isn't a fair representation of what happened. In his first full season he finished 8th but didn't really spend, he was given a considerable amount of money this season and they have a decent chance of finishing top 4, a successful season.
And how sure are you that ETH is?I'm not sure how many times I've to make this point, but I have never said Arteta has made no progress, I'm simply providing my opinion that there are caveats, and that I don't think he's the manager that will ultimately get Arsenal back to where I would hope their fans would want to be.
I was just responding to the 8 8 thing, it gets bandied a lot in this thread and ignores the context of the situation. Same way that some posters bring up money spent and forget he's only really spent last summer.I'm not sure how many times I've to make this point, but I have never said Arteta has made no progress, I'm simply providing my opinion that there are caveats, and that I don't think he's the manager that will ultimately get Arsenal back to where I would hope their fans would want to be.
I'm confident he was the right choice given the options available, it's not really comparable though, as we are talking about Arteta after 2 1/2 seasons in this case, not some brand new manager.And how sure are you that ETH is?
I am not to speak for Conor but what has ETH got to do with any of how arteta does. Eth may fail here at United but he has a proven pedigree at Ajax and has a clear style of football. Arteta doesn't have either.And how sure are you that ETH is?
And how long to you give him before he has to win a league or champions league since that's how you gauge success?I'm confident he was the right choice given the options available, it's not really comparable though, as we are talking about Arteta after 2 1/2 seasons in this case, not some brand new manager.
Well for one they will be in direct competition. I've said before, Conte will be a great example. We all agree Conte is a top class manager, right? He's at a club similar to Arsenal in terms of spending power, in terms of level of player he can attract, & in terms of current level of performance.I am not to speak for Conor but what has ETH got to do with any of how arteta does. Eth may fail here at United but he has a proven pedigree at Ajax and has a clear style of football. Arteta doesn't have either.
New managers often face challenges. At the same time, new Managers often experience an upturn in results simply by being a new voice in the dressing room.Yeah, let's ignore all the context of a new manager coming in mid season and trying to get a team to adapt to his playstyle and required fitness levels, and just pretend like it was a completely level playing field because you were close to each other on points, that makes loads of sense.
How do you get a proven pedigree when people enter entrenched positions and continually refuse to acknowledge he's doing a good job this season and then as soon as he hits a patch you just know they'll pile in and say he was shocking all along.I am not to speak for Conor but what has ETH got to do with any of how arteta does. Eth may fail here at United but he has a proven pedigree at Ajax and has a clear style of football. Arteta doesn't have either.
I agree that the two situations don't have anything to do with each other, and that ETH is far more experienced. Arteta not having a clear style of football is wrong though, and one of the reasons the "Ole = Arteta" analysis that we see keep seeing in this thread is so lazy. People can disagree about how much they like the approach or the strengths and weaknesses of it, but I can tell you to a player how Arsenal approach games, same way that I can for Chelsea or Brighton or any team with consistent gameplans and approaches. I couldn't do that with Ole, bar a basic counter attacking approach relying on star quality and individual moments.I am not to speak for Conor but what has ETH got to do with any of how arteta does. Eth may fail here at United but he has a proven pedigree at Ajax and has a clear style of football. Arteta doesn't have either.
I don't put much stock in terms like cultural reset, but I also don't really get your point. They signed him on a free and binned him off after one season when it didn't work out. He's targeted younger players and it's something that the club is obviously focusing on.Arteta has a cultural reset, they say. Only using young players, despite signing Willian for £220k a week, as one of his first signings.
That was the summer before. Its almost as if clubs, I don't know, continually analyse & change strategy accordingly! Or can that only be done with a managerial change every 18 months or so?Arteta has a cultural reset, they say. Only using young players, despite signing Willian for £220k a week, as one of his first signings.
It's not about winning things per se, but challenging for them. I wouldn't want to sack Ten Hag in 3 years time if we had competed for and narrowly missed out on the league, or gotten to a semi final or final of the CL and lost. If we had managed a few top 4s whilst being miles off the pace of the leaders, I probably would.And how long to you give him before he has to win a league or champions league since that's how you gauge success?
I think you are just being willfully ignorant to the most important part of the season for a new manager at this point, especially a manager like Conte with his fitness requirements. He has had no preseason with the players.New managers often face challenges. At the same time, new Managers often experience an upturn in results simply by being a new voice in the dressing room.
I would agree that it wasn’t a level playing field, the consensus opinion was (and continues to be) that Arsenal have a weaker squad. We have a lack of experience running throughout our first team and our rookie Manager is overseen by a rookie Technical Director. These are all things in Spurs favour.
If Conte being Manager of Spurs for a hypothetical additional 10 games is the magic bullet that you’re portraying it as, why isn’t that reflected in the 24 games he’s had in actual reality? Especially as he was able to add to a squad that was already stronger than Arsenal’s?
Not at all. Pre-seasons are incredibly important. But in the last few season alone we’ve seen what a new Manager bounce can do for United with Ole and Chelsea with Tuchel. In fact, even Arteta himself took over team mid-season in 11th and qualified for Europe through winning the FA Cup, beating City and Chelsea on the way.I think you are just being willfully ignorant to the most important part of the season for a new manager at this point, especially a manager like Conte with his fitness requirements. He has had no preseason with the players.