Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch

[GoonerBear]

It's not about winning things per se, but challenging for them. I wouldn't want to sack Ten Hag in 3 years time if we had competed for and narrowly missed out on the league, or gotten to a semi final or final of the CL and lost. If we had managed a few top 4s whilst being miles off the pace of the leaders, I probably would.

This is my concern for Ten Hag. You guys talk about Arteta dampening expectations, hiding behind a project etc. However, when you look at the facts. Pep & Klopp are the best 2 managers in the game, have assembled the team & squad they wanted spending hundreds of millions or 5+ years in both cases.

Do you think any manager should be able to come in where Arsenal were, spend £20M or £30M more than them in one summer and we should be able to challenge them? With a 3rd less of a wage budget?

We are stating from way back, against 2 of the top clubs in the world. Its not dampening expectations, its being real.

Utd will generally spend more than us, certainly in wages and transfer fees, you certainly have way more revenue than us, so in theory you should be able to close the gap quicker. But its going to be really difficult with the head start these guys have had, with the structure already in place at these clubs, and just the sheer amount of work needed from Utds end. Not to mention the competition from Chelsea, Conte's Spurs, cash rich Newcastle (I've left us out because we have a poor manager and will have European football to contend with so we won't be competition apparently).

I fear it's a more difficult challenge than many of you think.

 

[Conor]

Not at all. Pre-seasons are incredibly important. But in the last few season alone we’ve seen what a new Manager bounce can do for United with Ole and Chelsea with Tuchel. In fact, even Arteta himself took over team mid-season in 11th and qualified for Europe through winning the FA Cup, beating City and Chelsea on the way.

The unfamiliarity with the players can be both a blessing and a curse so it pretty much cancels out.

More importantly, 24 games is both a huge amount of time to make up 2 points and a large enough sample size to see significantly improved performances. Neither have happened.

Anyway, I’m kind of done. The beauty of leagues is that you don’t have to have these kinds of discussions. If Arsenal qualify for the Champions League, it will be primarily because of how we performed across the season. And if we don’t, it will be for the same reason.

Listen, whatever helps you sleep at night.

This is my concern for Ten Hag. You guys talk about Arteta dampening expectations, hiding behind a project etc. However, when you look at the facts. Pep & Klopp are the best 2 managers in the game, have assembled the team & squad they wanted spending hundreds of millions or 5+ years in both cases.

Do you think any manager should be able to come in where Arsenal were, spend £20M or £30M more than them in one summer and we should be able to challenge them? With a 3rd less of a wage budget?

We are stating from way back, against 2 of the top clubs in the world. Its not dampening expectations, its being real.

Utd will generally spend more than us, certainly in wages and transfer fees, you certainly have way more revenue than us, so in theory you should be able to close the gap quicker. But its going to be really difficult with the head start these guys have had, with the structure already in place at these clubs, and just the sheer amount of work needed from Utds end. Not to mention the competition from Chelsea, Conte's Spurs, cash rich Newcastle (I've left us out because we have a poor manager and will have European football to contend with so we won't be competition apparently).

I fear it's a more difficult challenge than many of you think.

I don't expect it to happen in an instant, but with Klopp, for example, in his first number of seasons it was relatively easy to see that real progress was being made, along with the fact that we had seen his previous team reach incredible heights. I'm just not really seeing that be the case with Arsenal, I don't watch them for a while and I hear people harping on about them, and then I watch a couple of their games and they appear to be basically the same team they were last season. I'm under no illusion that Ten Hag is going to have it easy trying to catch up with the top 2, but at least we are making the right move bringing him in.

 

[GoonerBear]

Listen, whatever helps you sleep at night.

I don't expect it to happen in an instant, but with Klopp, for example, in his first number of seasons it was relatively easy to see that real progress was being made, along with the fact that we had seen his previous team reach incredible heights. I'm just not really seeing that be the case with Arsenal, I don't watch them for a while and I hear people harping on about them, and then I watch a couple of their games and they appear to be basically the same team they were last season. I'm under no illusion that Ten Hag is going to have it easy trying to catch up with the top 2, but at least we are making the right move bringing him in.

The fan base in general isn't stupid. There's a reason why most are willing to give Arteta more time. There's a togetherness and spirit about the squad that we haven't had in a while. There's players there we see care & a connection to the fan base that's also been missing.

Im not a match going fan as I live in Scotland but The Emirates has apparently been fun to go to again, the atmosphere has improved, and we all know that's not always been the case. There have been lots of signs in improvement of results, but also of performances. Sure, there's been difficult times, there's been some poor games, but generally I think people can see the plan Arteta is trying to play to. Now we need more quality players to improve the plan further, & a deeper squad so we're not as affected by injuries.

And listen, nothing is set in stone. The manager has got the team playing better, so has been rewarded with a new contract. That doesn't mean you stop assessing his performance, or you stop demanding improvements. Like every other manager if he regresses after this seasons progression, then you review and see if change is needed. Regardless if he's going out of contract in 3 months or 3 years. We're not bound by blood if it starts to go wrong.

 

[Daydreamer]

Listen, whatever helps you sleep at night.

I sleep fine, but I appreciate the concern - that’s very kind of you. This is thread about Arsenal’s Manager so I know why I’m interested in the topic. I can’t figure why you’re so invested, but it’s definitely very cute.

 

[Dancfc]

Tuchel's finest achievement with us to date!

 

[GoonerBear]

Tuchel's finest achievement with us to date!

You're win at The Emirates at the start of the season when we were struggling is Arteta's only blip against Chelsea is it not?

 

[Che Guevara]

I think it's brilliant personally. I don't think they realise just how good they had it with Wenger, even with the benefit of hindsight they had with United losing their legendary manager a few years earlier.

Their competition for 4th was utterly abysmal and they still might not get it. They're just us under Solskjaer. Apart from Saka and Odegaard none of those are particularly outstanding talents. Tierney's 25 in June so he's hardly a young talent anymore.

They have a very good defence and one of the best keepers in the PL. The club had stagnated under Wenger, dropping out of top 4, and even Wenger himself admitted he overstayed at Arsenal. Extending Arteta's contract is a brilliant decision by Arsenal, the club is definitely making progress.

 

[AltiUn]

They have a very good defence and one of the best keepers in the PL.

City, Liverpool and Chelsea have very good defences and some of the best keepers in the PL. That's why they've conceded half the goals Arsenal have. Arsenal don't have a very good defence and certainly don't have one of the best keepers in the league, they have the 6th best defence, teams with similar defensive stats to them include Palace and Brighton. I don't mind people thinking they do because it keeps Arteta in the job and he's garbage, so I'm very happy if people believe that.

 

[ThierryHenry14]

Josh Kroenke on 2021/22 campaign:

"It’s been a rollercoaster of a season. I say that with a smile on my face. To think back to where we were after three matches, Mikel and the team have done an amazing job stabilizing the ship. I wanna thank you guys for sticking with us through all the ups and downs."

Josh Kroenke on summer transfer plans:

"We've got plans in place to continue to strengthen the squad. Now having match day revenue and having fans back in the stadium has been great. We continue to provide whatever support we can for Mikel and continue to push the squad forward to achieve our goals."

Vinai Venkatesham on expectations:

"Given how much change happened last summer and given the age profile of the squad, the reality is with four games to go, we are a bit ahead of where we expected we would be. We are still behind where we wanna be, and that’s competing to win the biggest trophies in the game."

Vinai Venkatesham on summer plans

"That’s our focus this summer: how can we strengthen the squad? How can we get closer to competing? We are confident that we are on the right path."

The board is very happy with Arteta and hence the new contract. The board is the only one to determine if Arteta is still a good fit for the job, and they think he is, for next season at least.

 

[Daydreamer]

City, Liverpool and Chelsea have very good defences and some of the best keepers in the PL. That's why they've conceded half the goals Arsenal have. Arsenal don't have a very good defence and certainly don't have one of the best keepers in the league, they have the 6th best defence, teams with similar defensive stats to them include Palace and Brighton. I don't mind people thinking they do because it keeps Arteta in the job and he's garbage, so I'm very happy if people believe that.

The truth is somewhere in the middle. We’ve conceded 41 goals. Nearly a quarter of those goals came during our disastrous first three games which massively skews the figures.

Generally our defence is pretty solid. However, the entire back five is 24 years or younger and defenders peak later. Also, there is always the possibility of a Xhaka meltdown at any moment.

 

[Trex]

The truth is somewhere in the middle. We’ve conceded 41 goals. Nearly a quarter of those goals came during our disastrous first three games which massively skews the figures.

Generally our defence is pretty solid. However, the entire back five is 24 years or younger and defenders peak later. Also, there is always the possibility of a Xhaka meltdown at any moment.

The idea that a whole squad will eventually go two levels above their current level because they're young is definitely not accurate, a lot will remain at their current level, some will regress and only one or two will make the step up especially playing in a squad without already established stars to lead the way.

 

[Il Prete Rosso]

You're misunderstanding, it's not about questioning why Arteta didn't finish above those teams, the question you should be asking is why Arteta is your manager.

It depends on the path you want to take the organization. Are you on a development or a transformation path. That decision would lead you to either hire a manager for short term success by spending money OR hire a young manager, who brings his own players in and take the time to develop the team. The problem with modern fans is the lack of patience. People seem to think that one or two full seasons is enough for a new manager to get their players, ideas and a culture into a club, it's not.

 

[Il Prete Rosso]

I agree that the two situations don't have anything to do with each other, and that ETH is far more experienced. Arteta not having a clear style of football is wrong though, and one of the reasons the "Ole = Arteta" analysis that we see keep seeing in this thread is so lazy. People can disagree about how much they like the approach or the strengths and weaknesses of it, but I can tell you to a player how Arsenal approach games, same way that I can for Chelsea or Brighton or any team with consistent gameplans and approaches. I couldn't do that with Ole, bar a basic counter attacking approach relying on star quality and individual moments.

Even comparing this season's Arsenal to last season's Arsenal, you can see a marked difference in how they approach games, both in terms of their off the ball work and what they do on it, even in terms of player 's positional play and the areas they funnel their attack through is very different.



I don't put much stock in terms like cultural reset, but I also don't really get your point. They signed him on a free and binned him off after one season when it didn't work out. He's targeted younger players and it's something that the club is obviously focusing on.

What do you think got Utd to where they were under Fergie? You underestimate the importance of culture in affecting any kind of change. A football club and a team are no different.

 

[Cascarino]

What do you think got Utd to where they were under Fergie? You underestimate the importance of culture in affecting any kind of change. A football club and a team are no different.

That's not where I'm coming from, I don't put much stock in terms like "cultural reset" because supporters know little of the ins and outs when it comes to these big clubs. So it's just a meaningless buzzword.

 

[Daydreamer]

The idea that a whole squad will eventually go two levels above their current level because they're young is definitely not accurate, a lot will remain at their current level, some will regress and only one or two will make the step up especially playing in a squad without already established stars to lead the way.

Yep, totally agree. I’m not sure anyone’s suggesting all our young players will go up a couple of levels. Development is not guaranteed to happen and it may not be linear when it does.

Much depends on the type of young prospect. For example, our first choice back line are all 22-24. They’ve all played 100 - 200 games. Arsenal is the biggest club they’ve each played for (though Celtic fans would justifiably dispute that). This season will have been valuable experience of sustained high stakes.

Whereas our front line consists of academy graduates aged 20-22. Their bodies are still developing and they’ve actually been carrying the team. There is a real possibility that if we don’t strengthen the squad their development will be harm through being overplayed.

But I think the impact of a years worth of collective experience for a such a young team may be larger than expected.

 

[Tarrou]

The idea that a whole squad will eventually go two levels above their current level because they're young is definitely not accurate, a lot will remain at their current level, some will regress and only one or two will make the step up especially playing in a squad without already established stars to lead the way.

also if they do go up two levels they might want to move to a big club

 

[Kaos]

This has shades of Ole for them. A series of false dawns but ultimately a limited manager who won't get them where they want to be.

If I were an Arsenal fan I'd be frustrated, and begging for the club to bring in an Amorim or Potter style appointment, just like how I was desperate for us to bring a Ten Hag or Nagelsmann after the end of last season.

 

[GoonerBear]

This has shades of Ole for them. A series of false dawns but ultimately a limited manager who won't get them where they want to be.

If I were an Arsenal fan I'd be frustrated, and begging for the club to bring in an Amorim or Potter style appointment, just like how I was desperate for us to bring a Ten Hag or Nagelsmann after the end of last season.

And do we think Potter is a better manager than Pep or Klopp?

 

[Powderfinger]

This has shades of Ole for them. A series of false dawns but ultimately a limited manager who won't get them where they want to be.

If I were an Arsenal fan I'd be frustrated, and begging for the club to bring in an Amorim or Potter style appointment, just like how I was desperate for us to bring a Ten Hag or Nagelsmann after the end of last season.

I can see why United fans are desperate to make this comparison but its really a terrible one.

Arteta has some weaknesses with man management but he is tactically very sophisticated and he has shown the ability to work with and improve young players. Ole was basically the exact opposite - a good man manager who was completely clueless tactically and didn't make any players better.

That is not to say that Arteta will end up a smashing success. Its entirely possible that we are looking for a new manager in a couple years. But the comparison is really bad.

 

[charlenefan]

I can see why United fans are desperate to make this comparison but its really a terrible one.

Arteta has some weaknesses with man management but he is tactically very sophisticated and he has shown the ability to work with and improve young players. Ole was basically the exact opposite - a good man manager who was completely clueless tactically and didn't make any players better.

That is not to say that Arteta will end up a smashing success. Its entirely possible that we are looking for a new manager in a couple years. But the comparison is really bad.

talking of bad takes

people in glass houses

 

[Daydreamer]

talking of bad takes

people in glass houses

As an outsider, I too thought that Ole was a decent man manager but not a brilliant coach or tactical mind. But I admit to not watching a ton of United games. What would you say our his strengths and weaknesses.

 

[charlenefan]

As an outsider, I too thought that Ole was a decent man manager but not a brilliant coach or tactical mind. But I admit to not watching a ton of United games. What would you say our his strengths and weaknesses.

My argument was more that he didn't make players better where the fact is most of the current squad showed their best form under Ole. Only exception being Lingard who showed his best form for us under Mourinho

Ole had a low ceiling which was evident throughout his time and obviously became even more horribly obviously this season which lead to him being sacked

 

[Powderfinger]

My argument was more that he didn't make players better where the fact is most of the current squad showed their best form under Ole. Only exception being Lingard who showed his best form for us under Mourinho

Ole had a low ceiling which was evident throughout his time and obviously became even more horribly obviously this season which lead to him being sacked

IMO, showing your best form under a manager is different than improving as a player in a sustainable way.

Rashford for example clearly showed his best form under Ole, who gave him confidence and used a system that brought the best out of him. But I'm not sure he is that much better today than when Ole took over, despite those being years (early 20s) when you expect to see a lot of growth and development.

 

[Daydreamer]

My argument was more that he didn't make players better where the fact is most of the current squad showed their best form under Ole. Only exception being Lingard who showed his best form for us under Mourinho

Ole had a low ceiling which was evident throughout his time and obviously became even more horribly obviously this season which lead to him being sacked

Ok, I’ve got you. Ole was obviously doing something right to take you to second. And he did manage to get some decent performances out of your players. To my eyes there weren’t too many great team performances. Even your victories seems to be down to moments of individual brilliance, our isolated periods of play.

In many ways he is the polar opposite of Arteta. We’re quite systematic in our approach. Sometimes that leads to beautiful team goals. But it can also cause us to be rigid and unresponsive to the needs of the game.

 

[GoonerInPeace]

Ole was a soft touch and one of the lads. Mikel Arteta will show you the door if you dont put the effort in, just like he did with PEA. There was even a leaked incident in training a few weeks back where Saka was taking the session a little bit lately and Arteta told him off. Doesnt matter who you are, you need to commit.

Arteta is animated on the touchline and energetic. Ole just sat in his chair and watched the game, just as he does know as a fan.

Ole didnt have it in him to bench Maguire, I knew Ole was a soft touch wen he high fived Harry Maguire after he got sent of against Norwich - here is a player getting you closer to the sack and he meltdowns again and you engage him positively. Ole was just waiting to eb sacked, he didn't fight or try to shake the team up.

 

[RedPed]

I'm very happy they've given Arteta 3 more years. Their fans must be the most fickle in football. Arsenal got away with one this season because of how bad we were and how inconsistent Spurs, Chelsea and Leicester have been and no European football at all. They won't be so fortunate next season and Arteta will continue to mismanage the players, especially now that they have European football next season, but they won't progress very far in that anyway.

I'm just hoping that Spurs can hold their nerve and get that 4th spot. I can't think of anything worse than Arsenal playing CL football.

 

[ThierryHenry14]

I'm very happy they've given Arteta 3 more years. Their fans must be the most fickle in football. Arsenal got away with one this season because of how bad we were and how inconsistent Spurs, Chelsea and Leicester have been and no European football at all. They won't be so fortunate next season and Arteta will continue to mismanage the players, especially now that they have European football next season, but they won't progress very far in that anyway.

I'm just hoping that Spurs can hold their nerve and get that 4th spot. I can't think of anything worse than Arsenal playing CL football.

Good. Everybody is happy.

 

[RedPed]

Good. Everybody is happy.

Don't worry, I'll come back to you next season when everyone is Arteta out again.

 

[ThierryHenry14]

Don't worry, I'll come back to you next season when everyone is Arteta out again.

Who knows? May be ETH out before Arteta.

 

[BurgerVan]

Arsenal got away with one this season because of how bad we were and how inconsistent Spurs, Chelsea and Leicester have been

What are you on about? We are on target for 70 points+. That would get top 4 in something like 9 of the last 12 seasons, including the last 4 or 5 in a row?

But, whatever makes you happy pal.

 

[Donaldo]

I can't keep track of how many random cnuts we have to get back to on here now.

 

[Nish115]

Yeah, I'm sure Ajax fans hated winning the league every year and dominating teams like Juventus, Real Madrid, and Dortmund in the Champions League. Who can blame them?

Arsenal fans are strange people.

Why would I be making this up

I've gone on fan forums, and i've seen many ajax fans they want ETH out because he's become too rigid and stale, and isn't adaptable enough.

Obviously a few years ago that Ajax team was fantastic, and back then ETH was at his peak, but.. you know things do change..

 

[RedPed]

I can't keep track of how many random cnuts we have to get back to on here now.

I would have thought you've got more than enough on your plate with the amount of Gooner flip-flops about. If I was you, I'd worry about those first.

 

[Robbie Boy]

He signed a new deal? Bloody brilliant news.

 

[GoonerBear]

He signed a new deal? Bloody brilliant news.

Think you guys have more to worry about than us.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Think you guys have more to worry about than Arteta.

We're actually brilliantly hilarious tbh. Still chuffed by this news, though

 

[FootyGirl88]

No way its been 5 years?!?

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[HTG]

I missed us kicking Arsenals butts. Great to have them back in the cl.

 

[GifLord]

If they do qualify in which draw pot will they be? 2nd or 3rd?

 

[Daydreamer]

I missed us kicking Arsenals butts. Great to have them back in the cl.

It’s been so long I’m actually starting to miss going out to you and Barca in the Round of 16 ties.